Military Strengths of Major Houses

[paramount]

I think I would go something like this:

Reach: 100 000 I would say most likely as they could muster 80 000 to support Renly and this was excluding the Hightowers and Redwynes who didn't intervene on Renly's side.

Dorne: 50 000. This is the number of troops that Quentyn suggests Dorne can muster though I think that the real number is probably less.

Stormlands: Less than 25 000. Stannis was able to muster perhaps 19 000 from the Stormlands to attack King's Landing

Westerlands: 55 000.

North: 30 000

Vale: 30 000

Riverlands: 35 000

'

Iron Islands: ? this is hard due to the fact that the Ironborn don't usually send much men to take strongholds I would say in between 7000 and 15 000.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Old topic. Welcome to the discussion:

North: 50,000-60,000

Riverlands: ~50,000

Vale: ~50,000

Westerlands: ~45,000

Iron Islands: ~30,000

Crownlands: ~20,000

Reach: ~100,000

Stormlands: ~30,000

Dorne: ~30,000

[The Academic Wolf]

Old topic. Welcome to the discussion:

North: 50,000-60,000

Riverlands: ~50,000

Vale: ~50,000

Westerlands: ~45,000

Iron Islands: ~30,000

Crownlands: ~20,000

Reach: ~100,000

Stormlands: ~30,000

Dorne: ~30,000

Slight nitpick with Dorne, the usual estimate is I believe more like 25,000. Also, just to clarify, this theoretical total for each major House isn't absolute- the Starks, for example, are hampered by the harvest probably more than any other House, as well as by the sheer size of the North- it would be difficult, in terms of food and money, to raise that 60,000 total to campaign in the South. Torrhen Stark raised what appears to be the largest known Northern army to go South, and he took about 35,000 with him, before he bent the knee to Aegon.

[Matoro]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100550-relative-strength-of-every-realm-before-twotfk/?hl=strength

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78009-help-with-army-numbers/?hl=army

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99150-which-great-house-can-field-the-largest-army/?hl=army

Just plain numbers don't really tell much. Middle Ages were not World War II. Potential manpower was basically never used.

[paramount]

I do however find it hard to believe that Iron Islands can muster more than the Crownlands.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think I would go something like this:

Reach: 100 000 I would say most likely as they could muster 80 000 to support Renly and this was excluding the Hightowers and Redwynes who didn't intervene on Renly's side.

Dorne: 50 000. This is the number of troops that Quentyn suggests Dorne can muster though I think that the real number is probably less.

Stormlands: Less than 25 000. Stannis was able to muster perhaps 19 000 from the Stormlands to attack King's Landing

Westerlands: 55 000.

North: 30 000

Vale: 30 000

Riverlands: 35 000

'

Iron Islands: ? this is hard due to the fact that the Ironborn don't usually send much men to take strongholds I would say in between 7000 and 15 000.

Aha! Up and at 'em...for round 89 and counting.

OK, so where to start. Let's just give the summarized version, and see where things go from there. Maybe the thread fizzles out after a half dozen posts, or maybe it goes for 21 pages.

You're off by quite a bit for pretty much everyone except the Westerlands and the Reach.

The North is sitting at around 45k. So too the Riverlands and the Vale.

The Stormlands is around 30k, with Dorne at around 25k and the Iron Isles around 25k too.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Slight nitpick with Dorne, the usual estimate is I believe more like 25,000. Also, just to clarify, this theoretical total for each major House isn't absolute- the Starks, for example, are hampered by the harvest probably more than any other House, as well as by the sheer size of the North- it would be difficult, in terms of food and money, to raise that 60,000 total to campaign in the South. Torrhen Stark raised what appears to be the largest known Northern army to go South, and he took about 35,000 with him, before he bent the knee to Aegon.

The maximum effective sized army that can be marched 1000 miles South, is very different to the maximum number of men that can be raised by the North. I would have argued that 20k is pretty much the biggest army that the North can march South, even though they can raise 45k men (more than twice Robb's army) altogether.

The fact that Torhenn managed to march 30k men South of the Neck, is massively impressive to me, and suggests a total Northern strength even higher than I previously thought.

For comparative purposes, the rich Westerlands, with a high population density, small territory and very easily assembled army, only managed to march 35k men the relatively short distance from the West to the Riverlands.

For the vastly bigger, harsher and more thinly populated North to march 30k men much further under Torhenn, is a huge achievement.

[paramount]

I am aware that Doran says that Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms but I have a hard time believing that as the Iron Islands seems to be far more barren and desolate.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Quentyn is not the only one to say Dorne can field 50.000. In Clash, Tyrion says so too.

So I really don't see why Dorne's military strength on the threads is made as small as 25.000..? Am I missing something.?

[Free Northman Reborn]

I am aware that Doran says that Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms but I have a hard time believing that as the Iron Islands seems to be far more barren and desolate.

That too is a common fallacy.

The Iron Isles is not one of the Seven Kingdoms. The Seven Kingdoms are depicted on Joffrey's chalice. It has a Wolf, Lion, Stag, Rose, Fish, Falcon and Sun on it. There is no Squid. Joffrey still jokes that he should remove the Wolf and replace it with a Squid, now that the Ironborn have conquered Witnerfell.

So Dorne most certainly does not have a lower population than the Iron Isles.

But the Iron Isles, according to Martin, raises a much higher percentage of its population to arms, than any other region, due to their martial culture and ability to use thralls for slavelabour.

So that allows them to punch somewhat above their weight. Maybe matching Dorne's armed strength, but certainly not matching any of the larger mainland regions.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I am aware that Doran says that Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms but I have a hard time believing that as the Iron Islands seems to be far more barren and desolate.

The largest difference is economy and social structure. The naval-based Iron Islands can field a far higher percentage of their population than any agrarian-based greenland region. Somewhere between twice and maybe even ten times in the extreme.

Quentyn is not the only one to say Dorne can field 50.000. In Clash, Tyrion says so too.

So I really don't see why Dorne's military strength on the threads is made as small as 25.000..? Am I missing something.?

Doran himself states the 50,000 to be a convinient lie made up by the Young Dragon to make the Conquest of Dorne appear greater and being maintained by Dorne for political purposes.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Quentyn is not the only one to say Dorne can field 50.000. In Clash, Tyrion says so too.

So I really don't see why Dorne's military strength on the threads is made as small as 25.000..? Am I missing something.?

Yes. Martin retro-engineered Dorne's numbers sometime after Storm of Swords. He even commented on it, indirectly, in an SSM.

He originally planned for them to have 50k, but revised it down later, and used the "deliberate misrepresentation to fool their enemies", line to justify it in-universe.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The largest difference is economy and social structure. The naval-based Iron Islands can field a far higher percentage of their population than any agrarian-based greenland region. Somewhere between twice and maybe even ten times in the extreme.

Doran himself states the 50,000 to be a convinient lie made up by the Young Dragon to make the Conquest of Dorne appear greater and being maintained by Dorne for political purposes.

Doran never specifies that the 50.000 are a lie. Only that what Daeron had written in his books is a lie, and that Dorne never bothered to correct anyone on it, IIRC.

Otherwise, why send Quentyn ahead with those numbers?

Yes. Martin retro-engineered Dorne's numbers sometime after Storm of Swords. He even commented on it, indirectly, in an SSM.

He originally planned for them to have 50k, but revised it down later, and used the "deliberate misrepresentation to fool their enemies", line to justify it in-universe.

Could you perhaps link that SSM? :)

[Stormland's Fury]

Yes. Martin retro-engineered Dorne's numbers sometime after Storm of Swords. He even commented on it, indirectly, in an SSM.

He originally planned for them to have 50k, but revised it down later, and used the "deliberate misrepresentation to fool their enemies", line to justify it in-universe.

The other question is why do the other houses even believe that lie? It's not too far fetched of course and they probably have not the same understanding of demographics but some must have surely deduced that it's not possible to field that man in Dorne and many saw approximately how many they could spare during RR. (in comparison to others).

I don't question that many Westerosi would buy it in, but that even arguably more clever people like Tyrion don't see through it strikes me as a bit odd.

[The Academic Wolf]

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100550-relative-strength-of-every-realm-before-twotfk/?hl=strength

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78009-help-with-army-numbers/?hl=army

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/99150-which-great-house-can-field-the-largest-army/?hl=army

Just plain numbers don't really tell much. Middle Ages were not World War II. Potential manpower was basically never used.

Very true. Also relevant is that the majority of these forces are probably not full time professional warriors. While George seems to base most of his military on the Wars of the Roses/late Hundred Years War era armies, Septon Maribald? (the one in the Riverlands who takes Brienne to the Elder Brother) monologue seems to suggest that there are peasant levies as well.

Accepting this premise, then there is probably a hard core of professional, well trained, well equipped soldiers, probably about 10%, with more economically advanced regions such as the Westerlands being able to increase that further, while regions such as the Iron Islands it would probably be less, with the rest being semi trained, casual, part time soldiers called up to fight by their lords.

The maximum effective sized army that can be marched 1000 miles South, is very different to the maximum number of men that can be raised by the North. I would have argued that 20k is pretty much the biggest army that the North can march South, even though they can raise 45k men (more than twice Robb's army) altogether.

The fact that Torhenn managed to march 30k men South of the Neck, is massively impressive to me, and suggest a total Northern strength even higher than I previously thought.

I imagine that Torrhen was already fairly well established and respected by his lords, whilst Robb had to earn their respect and trust on the fly.

Also, Torrhen may well have marched in the height of summer, or just after the harvest, meaning that he probably had more men to call upon anyway.

Finally, the North appears to have become somewhat depopulated recently.

[Stormland's Fury]

Very true. Also relevant is that the majority of these forces are probably not full time professional warriors. While George seems to base most of his military on the Wars of the Roses/late Hundred Years War era armies, Septon Maribald? (the one in the Riverlands who takes Brienne to the Elder Brother) monologue seems to suggest that there are peasant levies as well.

I always assumed that a large number are actually peasants. We are only exposed to the knights, nobles and bastards because everything is from a noble's POV and they rarely interact with commoners nor are they part of war councils and such.

It's hard to believe the Tyrells could gather an army of 100 000 men just by gathering all trained troops. The Reach strength is it's numbers but they still don't have exceptionally more noble houses than other regions and the families themselves are often not that bigger than others in the realm either. The whole region is fertile so that big population and by extension army has to be the commoners.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Finally, the North appears to have become somewhat depopulated recently.

I have thought about about the North's population trends, and I am inclined to think that rather than becoming depopulated, there has rather been an internal population shift within the North. 1000 years ago there was no White Harbor. It was merely a stronghold called the Wolf's Den.

Today there is a city with a population of 50,000 - and based on Medieval trends, that means a population in the surrounding countryside supporting that city of 10 times that number.

It seems quite likely that White Harbor has gradually grown over the course of the last 1000 years, from first the Wolfsden, to a Saltpans like town, to a Duskendale sized settlement to the medieval London sized city it is today.

And that growth may have accelerated over the course of the last 300 years. Meaning that people who eked out a living on the Stoney Shore and in the New Gift, gradually migrated to the richer, warmer more fertile Southeast, settling in the trade artery that is the White Knife River basin, and in the lands around White Harbor, where making a living was much easier.

This would be a gradual migration over many centuries, rather than a sudden rush.

Personally, I no longer think the North is less populated today than it was 300 years ago. The population distribution is just different.

[The Academic Wolf]

I have thought about about the North's population trends, and I am inclined to think that rather than becoming depopulated, there has rather been an internal population shift within the North. 1000 years ago there was no White Harbor. It was merely a stronghold called the Wolf's Den.

Today there is a city with a population of 50,000 - and based on Medieval trends, that means a population in the surrounding countryside supporting that city of 10 times that number.

It seems quite likely that White Harbor has gradually grown over the course of the last 1000 years, from first the Wolfsden, to a Saltpans like town, to a Duskendale sized settlement to the medieval London sized city it is today.

And that growth may have accelerated over the course of the last 300 years. Meaning that people who eked out a living on the Stoney Shore and in the New Gift, gradually migrated to the richer, warmer more fertile Southeast, settling in the trade artery that is the White Knife River basin, and in the lands around White Harbor, where making a living was much easier.

This would be a gradual migration over many centuries, rather than a sudden rush.

Personally, I no longer think the North is less populated today than it was 300 years ago. The population distribution is just different.

Interesting thought, one that I hadn't considered before. Even with such a population shift however, there should still be a reasonably sized population on the Stony Shore/the western coast in general.

Also, there is the historical reality of the last hundred years- the western coast has essentially been more or less constantly raided since the time of Dagon Greyjoy, with at least one Lord Stark (Beron) receiving a mortal wound and dying because of it. In the Westerlands reading, there was mention of Quellon Greyjoy raiding the West. I imagine that he also raided the North. And of course there was the Skagosi Rebellion, the constant Wildling raids and Raymun Redbeard's Invasion, all of which would have caused deaths amongst the population. So, perhaps it was a mixture of both, as the only region of the North that does not appear to have more or less constantly under threat in the last hundred years is the south east region, probably making it more tempting for the embattled peasants.

[Frey Pie]

The other question is why do the other houses even believe that lie? It's not too far fetched of course and they probably have not the same understanding of demographics but some must have surely deduced that it's not possible to field that man in Dorne and many saw approximately how many they could spare during RR. (in comparison to others).

I don't question that many Westerosi would buy it in, but that even arguably more clever people like Tyrion don't see through it strikes me as a bit odd.

And how many of the more clever people have actually been to Dorne? Very few I would think

It's like the argument people make with the dothraki. Robert feared them so they must have been fierce. Robert likely never even met a dothraki. Reputation does a lot to hide over the cracks e.g. Dornish numbers, Tywin's military rep etc

[Stormland's Fury]

And how many of the more clever people have actually been to Dorne? Very few I would think

It's like the argument people make with the dothraki. Robert feared them so they must have been fierce. Robert likely never even met a dothraki. Reputation does a lot to hide over the cracks e.g. Dornish numbers, Tywin's military rep etc

Still people travel to Dorne or know about it's geography. Someone like Tyrion who reads a lot surely read about Dorne and it's history as well. Not everyone was in the North but they still know how big it is and about it's climate.

Being fierce is no indication of the size of an army...