GRRM is a bad writer?

[GERM]

No offence, but wtf?

(Never read them, never will. Just talking about last line.)

I am not saying women are bad writers! Lol.

I am simply saying that only a woman could build a battle up for 2 books and have the whole thing basically blow over. She very easily, being a woman, could have wrote a killer ending too.

[The Dragons Hand]

First three books? Excellent. Books 4,5,6 have major pacing issues. Set up, set up, the greatest clusterfuck the fantasy genre has ever seen.

[GERM]

Ok, I have GERM on the record that both Sansa and Arya will die. We shall see if you are correct some year.

Lol. I believe I said that "it could be interpreted" as Arya and Sansa dying. I really don't want this to be true. I love Arya.

I do have a theory surrounding this though. I simply don't like to think about it because in my heart of hearts I definitely don't want it to be true.

[A Man Has Said]

My opinion: he's a great writer who has self-discipline problems. As a comment I saw recently in another venue had it, his lack of focus on ASoIaF has caused him to stray off whatever his intended path may have been. This is the inevitable consequence of his 'gardener, not architect' approach.

If he had buckled down and completed the fourth and fifth novels more quickly, he'd have done a better job. (so said the comment I read, and I agree.) He doesn't work from extensive notes or an elaborate plan; it's all 'in his head.' So if he takes weeks in a row off to edit an anthology attend Every. Damned. ComicCon. On. The. Planet., when he returns to ASoIaF, he's lost some good ideas and has to make up for that. My perception is that if you work like that and take 4 weeks off, you've actually put yourself 5 weeks behind. Especially with everything in this series being so complex.

It is of course a highly controversial thing to discuss his work ethic, especially with the "GRRM is not your bitch" and "To my detractors" floating out there.

My apologies in advance to anyone who feels he should take as long as he likes.

I would prefer that he finishes the series before either he or I (I'm 61, and have some health issues) dies.

[Gertrude]

I read several pages in, but not all of this thread, so forgive me if this has been brought up before.

I see several people mention that he is bad at sex scenes. (not just here, but in general) The only time I have heard someone explain why was on a podcast and the reason was 'it's not hot'. Why, exactly do people think he's bad at sex scenes in particular? I'll give you 'fat pink mast', but I don't think the purpose of these scenes is to titillate. I don't find them bad - he writes sex as just another part of daily life and an activity that adults do and he writes it in a way that I find more realistic than most of what you find in books.

[GERM]

My opinion: he's a great writer who has self-discipline problems. As a comment I saw recently in another venue had it, his lack of focus on ASoIaF has caused him to stray off whatever his intended path may have been. This is the inevitable consequence of his 'gardener, not architect' approach.

If he had buckled down and completed the fourth and fifth novels more quickly, he'd have done a better job. (so said the comment I read, and I agree.) He doesn't work from extensive notes or an elaborate plan; it's all 'in his head.' So if he takes weeks in a row off to edit an anthology attend Every. Damned. ComicCon. On. The. Planet., when he returns to ASoIaF, he's lost some good ideas and has to make up for that. My perception is that if you work like that and take 4 weeks off, you've actually put yourself 5 weeks behind. Especially with everything in this series being so complex.

It is of course a highly controversial thing to discuss his work ethic, especially with the "GRRM is not your bitch" and "To my detractors" floating out there.

My apologies in advance to anyone who feels he should take as long as he likes.

I would prefer that he finishes the series before either he or I (I'm 61, and have some health issues) dies.

You were probably reading me somewhere else. Lol. I have also said it about a dozen times in this thread. However, that lack of work ethic, or discipline, is part of his ability as a writer.

[Carey Snow]

I read several pages in, but not all of this thread, so forgive me if this has been brought up before.

I see several people mention that he is bad at sex scenes. (not just here, but in general) The only time I have heard someone explain why was on a podcast and the reason was 'it's not hot'. Why, exactly do people think he's bad at sex scenes in particular? I'll give you 'fat pink mast', but I don't think the purpose of these scenes is to titillate. I don't find them bad - he writes sex as just another part of daily life and an activity that adults do and he writes it in a way that I find more realistic than most of what you find in books.

Agreed... he does not write the sex scenes to turn the reader on as a smut writer would. Usually his sex scenes push the plot along or develop characters. Some of them turn me on if they align with me, but that is not why they are written.

[The One And Only]

My opinion: he's a great writer who has self-discipline problems. As a comment I saw recently in another venue had it, his lack of focus on ASoIaF has caused him to stray off whatever his intended path may have been. This is the inevitable consequence of his 'gardener, not architect' approach.

If he had buckled down and completed the fourth and fifth novels more quickly, he'd have done a better job. (so said the comment I read, and I agree.) He doesn't work from extensive notes or an elaborate plan; it's all 'in his head.' So if he takes weeks in a row off to edit an anthology attend Every. Damned. ComicCon. On. The. Planet., when he returns to ASoIaF, he's lost some good ideas and has to make up for that. My perception is that if you work like that and take 4 weeks off, you've actually put yourself 5 weeks behind. Especially with everything in this series being so complex.

It is of course a highly controversial thing to discuss his work ethic, especially with the "GRRM is not your bitch" and "To my detractors" floating out there.

My apologies in advance to anyone who feels he should take as long as he likes.

I would prefer that he finishes the series before either he or I (I'm 61, and have some health issues) dies.

Lack of focus is certainly a huge part of the problem. The other is that he made the world too complex. At it's heart, this should be the story about 4 major houses.... Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, & Targaryan. Combine those with the White Walkers and the Lord of Light, and that should be what 90% of the story is about. Instead, he brings in far too much about the Iron Islands, Dorne, Essos, and various other stuff that doesn't bring the core story forward.

Complex is nice if it can be reigned in. GRRM seems made things so complex he can't work his way out of it. That is why I think he is a bad writer (despite many of his great qualities).

[Carey Snow]

First three books? Excellent. Books 4,5,6 have major pacing issues. Set up, set up, the greatest clusterfuck the fantasy genre has ever seen.

Have you read book 6?

If, please send it to me!

[The One And Only]

To further my point about, here are the POV Chapters by House per book:

GAME OF THRONES

• House Stark - 53
  
• House Targaryan - 10
  
• House Lannister - 9
  
• House Baratheon - 0
  
• OTHER - 0
  

CLASH OF KINGS

• House Stark - 40
  
• House Targaryan - 5
  
• House Lannister - 15
  
• House Baratheon - 3 (Seaworth)
  
• OTHER - 6
  

STORM OF SWORDS

• House Stark - 43
  
• House Targaryan - 6
  
• House Lannister - 20
  
• House Baratheon - 6 (Seaworth)
  
• OTHER - 5
  

And then look at what happens over the next two books....

FEAST FOR CROWS

• House Stark - 6
  
• House Targaryan - 0
  
• House Lannister - 17
  
• House Baratheon - 0
  
• OTHER - 22
  

DANCE WITH DRAGONS

• House Stark - 18
  
• House Targaryan - 10
  
• House Lannister - 15
  
• House Baratheon - 5 (Seaworth & Melisandre)
  
• OTHER - 23
  

The story started off about the Stark Family with Dany being over in Essos. Now it has branched out that the major 4 houses of the story are only a fraction of the book.

He lost the story....

[GERM]

To further my point about, here are the POV Chapters by House per book:

GAME OF THRONES

• House Stark - 53

House Targaryan - 10

House Lannister - 9

House Baratheon - 0

OTHER - 0

CLASH OF KINGS

• House Stark - 40

House Targaryan - 5

House Lannister - 15

House Baratheon - 3 (Seaworth)

OTHER - 6

STORM OF SWORDS

• House Stark - 43

House Targaryan - 6

House Lannister - 20

House Baratheon - 6 (Seaworth)

OTHER - 5

And then look at what happens over the next two books....

FEAST FOR CROWS

• House Stark - 6

House Targaryan - 0

House Lannister - 17

House Baratheon - 0

OTHER - 22

DANCE WITH DRAGONS

• House Stark - 18

House Targaryan - 10

House Lannister - 15

House Baratheon - 5 (Seaworth & Melisandre)

OTHER - 23

The story started off about the Stark Family with Dany being over in Essos. Now it has branched out that the major 4 houses of the story are only a fraction of the book.

He lost the story....

Good breakdown. A lot of the chapters in AFFC and ADWD were pointless chapters too. It doesn't really matter if they were neat reads. They were still boring and served no purpose IMO.

[Carey Snow]

To further my point about, here are the POV Chapters by House per book:

GAME OF THRONES

• House Stark - 53

House Targaryan - 10

House Lannister - 9

House Baratheon - 0

OTHER - 0

CLASH OF KINGS

• House Stark - 40

House Targaryan - 5

House Lannister - 15

House Baratheon - 3 (Seaworth)

OTHER - 6

STORM OF SWORDS

• House Stark - 43

House Targaryan - 6

House Lannister - 20

House Baratheon - 6 (Seaworth)

OTHER - 5

And then look at what happens over the next two books....

FEAST FOR CROWS

• House Stark - 6

House Targaryan - 0

House Lannister - 17

House Baratheon - 0

OTHER - 22

DANCE WITH DRAGONS

• House Stark - 18

House Targaryan - 10

House Lannister - 15

House Baratheon - 5 (Seaworth & Melisandre)

OTHER - 23

The story started off about the Stark Family with Dany being over in Essos. Now it has branched out that the major 4 houses of the story are only a fraction of the book.

He lost the story....

He expanded the story. I love it still. Let's see if he can pull it all back in. If he does, it will be amazing.

[A Man Has Said]

Lack of focus is certainly a huge part of the problem. The other is that he made the world too complex. At it's heart, this should be the story about 4 major houses.... Stark, Lannister, Baratheon, & Targaryan. Combine those with the White Walkers and the Lord of Light, and that should be what 90% of the story is about. Instead, he brings in far too much about the Iron Islands, Dorne, Essos, and various other stuff that doesn't bring the core story forward.

Complex is nice if it can be reigned in. GRRM seems made things so complex he can't work his way out of it. That is why I think he is a bad writer (despite many of his great qualities).

(It's REINED in. A common and understandable error.) </grammar police>

The reason that he can't work his way out of things is the 'gardener' method.

He really needed to have plotted things out very early on, created a solid structure and then continue writing by hanging things on to that structure.

That would still have allowed for plenty of 'gardening.' (It could have been like building the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, heh.)

To further my point about, here are the POV Chapters by House per book:

..

<snip>

..

The story started off about the Stark Family with Dany being over in Essos. Now it has branched out that the major 4 houses of the story are only a fraction of the book.

He lost the story....

Quite. I would think that the first thing an author learns is that A story has a beginning, a middle and an end.

He LOVES to write beginnings, is OK at writing middles, but shirks at drawing anything to a resolution.

So he kills off the character, saving himself the trouble of resolving that particular arc then writes in a new character.

..Which means that instead of furthering the plot, he's back to Square One, establishing the new character's background and motivations, allegiances, whatever other characters they have issues with, etc. That takes a lot of effort and tons of space on the page, but doesn't really push the plot towards a conclusion.

It's incredibly inefficient.

And you could have said that he "Lost" the story - as in the TV show Lost.

Gawd, that was a piece of shite for the same reason - all sorts of plots and subplots with beginnings and middles, but no proper resolution.

[The One And Only]

He expanded the story. I love it still. Let's see if he can pull it all back in. If he does, it will be amazing.

The fact that he has taken so long since A Storm of Swords kind of proves that he either can't or is having a really hard time pulling it all back in.

[sj4iy]

He expanded the story. I love it still. Let's see if he can pull it all back in. If he does, it will be amazing.

But the problem is that he expanded the story after its natural mid-point in ASoS. That's when you are supposed to start building towards a climax...instead, he started again from square one.

[The One And Only]

But the problem is that he expanded the story after its natural mid-point in ASoS. That's when you are supposed to start building towards a climax...instead, he started again from square one.

Exactly. If he wanted side books to go further into the other parts of this world, I would be okay with it. It should not be at the expense of the core story.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I think being a great writer goes beyond simply writing well. Being a great writer translates into a lot of things, just like being great at anything translates into a lot of things.

Before anything else, I don't want you to confuse being a great writer with being a successful writer. Those two can be mutually exclusive.

Martin has a way with words. I don't think anyone can disagree with this. He has shown his ability to write beautifully. However, he has always shown his ability to lose his focus, his ability to control a story and an overall inability to maintain work ethic. All of those are things writers need to be considered great.

I think many of his weaknesses are being exacerbated by his inability to maintain his work ethic. Robert Jordan also lost control of his story for about three books. However, that loss of control spanned 3 years for three books. Not eleven.

In addition, Martin's argument about "always being a slow writer" doesn't stand up to facts. He wrote three marvelous books in a publishing period of 4 years. It is easy to understand why; he was struggling financially. The point being he CAN write quickly when he needs too. He has lost the NEED to buckle down and get it done though.

I wish the man happiness and I am glad he found success after 40 years of struggle. However, I do also believe in looking at the facts from a logical, honest and intelligent point of view. The facts are he is enjoying his money and fame, as is his right. It doesn't exclude him from criticism though.

His failure to follow through on his creation, or even make an attempt to follow through, has diminished him as a writer in my opinion. It is a package deal. He is redeemable still, and I find myself firmly believing he will publish WOW by 2015 because he MUST to prevent HBO from overtaking him(which it has told him it will). He can get it done when pushed.

Personally, he needs to push wildcards, short stories, editing jobs, etc all to the side. He fills his time with so much stuff not aSoIaF. We all appreciate the should stories that provide more background, but I personally can do without them if it means I get WoW.

[A Man Has Said]

EXAMPLES:

-Oberyn Martell - perhaps the best secondary character in the novels - is introduced early in "Storm of Swords" and is dead 3/4 of the way through.

INCREDIBLY inefficient! I can think of dozens of ways his survival could have moved the plot forward in books 4 and 5.

-Quentyn Martell - one of the most pointless characters in the world of literature.

Described in the novel (by Barristan IIRC) as being "of mud."

Drab, uninteresting, and to top it off his entire character arc takes up FAR too much space and time to read. He does nothing to advance the plot.

On top of which, his travelogue with Ser Gerris, Arch, and Maester Kedry is so close to that of Tyrion's party as to not only be redundant but confusing.

Yeah, we get it - everybody's trying to reach Dany first so they can marry her. (yawn!)

I can't imagine anyone who has read these novels who could think that killing Oberyn, replacing him with Quentyn, then killing Quentyn was a good decision.

[JonisHenryTudor]

.......

Ummm, Jordan's world was far, far more complex. I find Martin's story to be fairly predictable honestly. I can't think of a single mystery in his books that doesn't have a very pointed answer to it if you simply read with insight. I am unsure as to what books of Jordan's you were reading.

That being said, I made the comparison simply to talk about pacing. Jordan was as good, and probably better, in all aspects of writing than Martin. Nonetheless, I wasn't making that comparison.

Secondly, I don't know what side projects of Martin's that you're referring too. He has edited a few books and writes one show a season for AGOT and wrote two small novellas. Unless you're talking about vacations, interviews etc. which I agree, have been numerous. Also, I haven't really found any of his "side-projects" that fantastic.

I mean, Brandon Sanderson, who may not be as prolific of a writer as Martin, is one of the best world-builders of the genre IMO. He managed to write 4 books this year alone and is starting his next large installment of the Stormlight archive. I would consider those valid, time consuming side-projects.

I agree. Again, not to be repetitive, but Martin is using English history for his blueprint. Jordan and Sanderson are building from scratch....

The show has sort of ruined a lot of the great things about the books. And I don't mean that D&D did anything wrong. They have been awesome.

The books are vague and make people guess if people have duel identities or if there are grand schemes going on. The show has basically debunked most of this stuff. Most of the strong theories that were obvious have held true. The rest were just flat out wrong. And they make GRRM just seem like a writer who can't get a point across accurately. A writer who uses smoke and mirrors to cover up some of the boring plots going on. Way too many dead ends in the books.

I stopped watching the show for this very reason, and the "mysterious" elements of the books essentially spelled out in the show bothers me a great deal.

[The One And Only]

I stopped watching the show for this very reason, and the "mysterious" elements of the books essentially spelled out in the show bothers me a great deal.

I personally like it. Do I really need to be kept in the dark about the Clegane Brothers being alive or not? Not really. Just have somebody state it in the books to make it obvious. There are enough mysteries about the White Walkers and the history of Westeros that these subplots being a mystery for a few books just makes it overkill.

But to each their own. I can easily see why the show would ruin that experience from the books.