GRRM is a bad writer?

[Pecan]

I think he's quite a fine writer. His prose flows and never seems awkward, and the POV narrative structure brings the story to life in ways I've never encountered before.

[bent branch]

Having made it through the entirety of the thread, it has been fascinating reading everyone's opinion. It has reminded me about my one time fascination with Thomas Hardy novels. When I was in high school, my english teacher showed us "Far from the Madding Crowd" starring Julie Christie. I loved the movie so much I bought the novel and read it. I found the writing in the novel to pretty heavy going. I seem to remember a description of a field taking three pages and then nothing even happening in that field. Since I loved the story in the novel, I overlooked the problems I saw in the writing and went on to read "Tess of the d'Urbervilles" and "The Mayor of Casterbridge". By the time I had finished "The Mayor of Casterbridge" I couldn't face reading another Thomas Hardy novel. While I loved the stories he told, his writing style was problematic for me. I tell this story to point out that I get how people can love the books so much they end up on a fan site, but still have deep criticism of the books.

Having said that, I love GRRM as an author. I have no problems with his writing style. In fact, I find it quite immersive. Some things that some people dislike don't even draw my attention (like phrases repeated too often). I also love the story. I am one of those people that really liked AFFC and ADWD. Not only do I like them, I think they are two of the best books in the series. I sometimes think this is because they were actually pretty much what I expected. I read the first four books right after the first season of series ended and only had a two week wait until ADWD came out. I also knew about the scrapped five year time gap from my daughters. I expected to read about a series of rather minor events that would have their payoff in future books. After all, this was GRRM's stated reason for writing these two books. This strongly influenced my reading of these books and I think it is why I often find I have rather unconventional interpretations of what is going on compared to others on the board. :drunk: Where some people see filler material, I see an evolving story. I could be wrong.

So is GRRM a bad writer? I don't think so, but that is just my opinion.

[BastardlyRock]

I too have been happy to read everyone's opinions - thanks guys! I agree with a lot of what everyone has had to say... except those who don't love AFFC, AFFC rules. :cool4:

[Stormland's Fury]

He's the baddest.

[Bran17]

He's definitely not a bad writer, he writes really great and rich characters and the story is really compelling.

But he makes decisions I honestly can't(and don't want to) support.

I mean, he has like a thousand characters and 10 main characters(Dany, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime...) but he still feels like he has enough time to describe pointless travelogues for the sake of world building and over-development of characters that already had too much focus - and not enough relevance as the ones who keep being sidelined.

There's no advantage in having a story with "no main character" when he clearly gives way too much focus to a few of them for no practical reason. IMHO, he's taking his personal fondness of said characters much more seriously than he should, and that is deeply hurting the objectivity and pacing of the text.

That's why I hate ADWD and think AFFC is deeply flawed. Too many pointless chapters that don't make the plot advance. They actually make the books seem boring even when cool stuff is happening, since there's too much pages and not enough plot advancement.
That's my biggest complaint about him. The excess of too many new POV's was problematic too. I don't see the point of Asha and Aeron POVS. And they bore me because of that.
I also don't like when he doesn't narrate important stuff, since he narrates things way less interesting than them. But I can live with that.

[Ser Not Appearing]

He's the baddest.

Right. Said another way, he's a bad author... so long as the 'ass' is silent.

[JonisHenryTudor]

He's definitely not a bad writer, he writes really great and rich characters and the story is really compelling.

But he makes decisions I honestly can't(and don't want to) support.

I mean, he has like a thousand characters and 10 main characters(Dany, Bran, Sansa, Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Cersei, Jaime...) but he still feels like he has enough time to describe pointless travelogues for the sake of world building and over-development of characters that already had too much focus - and not enough relevance as the ones who keep being sidelined.

There's no advantage in having a story with "no main character" when he clearly gives way too much focus to a few of them for no practical reason. IMHO, he's taking his personal fondness of said characters much more seriously than he should, and that is deeply hurting the objectivity and pacing of the text.

That's why I hate ADWD and think AFFC is deeply flawed. Too many pointless chapters that don't make the plot advance. They actually make the books seem boring even when cool stuff is happening, since there's too much pages and not enough plot advancement.

That's my biggest complaint about him. The excess of too many new POV's was problematic too. I don't see the point of Asha and Aeron POVS. And they bore me because of that.

I also don't like when he doesn't narrate important stuff, since he narrates things way less interesting than them. But I can live with that.

:agree: In his attempt to maintain a strong sense of realism, it seems that before too long we are going to get a few pages on the problems relating to really bad chest congestion once winter hit westeros fully. My guess is that while theon is hanging around, in Reek's mind we will have a difficult time remembering who he is because the phlegm in his chest and nasal passages is making his brain muddled.....two pages of that and the chapter ends and another POV - someone named dirty steve of the cave.......

A bit of an exaggeration, but it does seem at times that George is trying to bring everything to life. I get his push towards a more "realistic" story, but at the same time it can create for a very mundane story.

BUT PLEASE George.....don't cross the threshold into excessive BS that Robin Hobb pulled in book 3 of the Farseer Trilogy...... Right now it isn't at that level of stupidity, and I think the next two volumes will pull a u-turn on the pace....I hope... IMO I don't get how a series that began so well in book 1 (Assassin's Apprentice) could end so poorly.....

[GERM]

Something like this needs to be thought of in posterity, what will people think in 60 years. With the TV series it's of that magnitude. I know it frustrating not knowing how it will end but it is like seeing a Picasso 2/3 done or an Henry Moore, We Have No Idea What It Will Be. There could well be things hidden in plain site for future books to point out in the things other people are pointing out.

Do I think George would be offended if I wrote that he has a bad story? No. He would think I was crazy for thinking him to be bad after reading his whole series so far and referencing unresolved narrative as an issue.

Also Shadow, the issue has become something more. He is going to allow a TV adaptation finish his books for him. I find that highly irresponsible of him. He met with HBO back in March/April in an attempt to pitch ways to slow them down and the directors of the show only had two words for him, "write faster."

We'll see if he really cares soon enough. I am a know the end type reader. If I get it from the shows, I definitely would have no interest in buying any more of his books.

[WexPyke]

That is probably true, but taking a few weeks for editing would have improved his last two books considerably and people who have been waiting five years for a book will wait a few weeks longer, I would imagine.

Your impression that the publishers are just glad to have any book, rings especially true for "A Dance with Dragons". If I remember correctly, Martin's editor said in an interview that they cut the two climatic battlescenes that were built up for a thousand pages for the mere reason that there is a maximum number that you can physical print in a book. When I read that I thought: "What?..."

A good editor would have cut enough from the rest of the material, so that the battles could be in the book.

Martin's editor apparently just said: "Alright, we have another 1000 pages, so let's make us some money ..."

This.

Martin needs a good editor. He is a great writer.

[Julian Rayne]

The only authors I find easier to read are Asimov and Jonathan Stroud. I think GRRM overuses onomatopoeia, but that's the only beef I have with his prose.

And I absolutely loved the pacing of ADwD and AFfC, although I don't agree with the ADwD/TWoW cut-off point.

[HouseHarrison]

He's an amazing writer. One of the greatest of our time. It's amazing he could craft this complex story and have so little plotholes.

[Carey Snow]

My opinion, he is a very good writer and a great story teller. I do think he struggled mightily in aDwD and aFfC with pacing and being a bit repetitive, but I blame that on the complicated plot and trying to make all of the different timelines work. As the plot lines start to converge, I suspect we will see pacing pick up much like the first three books.

Some of his chapters are so beautifully written that I read them over as short stories every so often. There is no other author that I do that with.

[GERM]

This.

Martin needs a good editor. He is a great writer.

I think being a great writer goes beyond simply writing well. Being a great writer translates into a lot of things, just like being great at anything translates into a lot of things.

Before anything else, I don't want you to confuse being a great writer with being a successful writer. Those two can be mutually exclusive.

Martin has a way with words. I don't think anyone can disagree with this. He has shown his ability to write beautifully. However, he has always shown his ability to lose his focus, his ability to control a story and an overall inability to maintain work ethic. All of those are things writers need to be considered great.

I think many of his weaknesses are being exacerbated by his inability to maintain his work ethic. Robert Jordan also lost control of his story for about three books. However, that loss of control spanned 3 years for three books. Not eleven.

In addition, Martin's argument about "always being a slow writer" doesn't stand up to facts. He wrote three marvelous books in a publishing period of 4 years. It is easy to understand why; he was struggling financially. The point being he CAN write quickly when he needs too. He has lost the NEED to buckle down and get it done though.

I wish the man happiness and I am glad he found success after 40 years of struggle. However, I do also believe in looking at the facts from a logical, honest and intelligent point of view. The facts are he is enjoying his money and fame, as is his right. It doesn't exclude him from criticism though.

His failure to follow through on his creation, or even make an attempt to follow through, has diminished him as a writer in my opinion. It is a package deal. He is redeemable still, and I find myself firmly believing he will publish WOW by 2015 because he MUST to prevent HBO from overtaking him(which it has told him it will). He can get it done when pushed.

[Carey Snow]

Also Shadow, the issue has become something more. He is going to allow a TV adaptation finish his books for him. I find that highly irresponsible of him. He met with HBO back in March/April in an attempt to pitch ways to slow them down and the directors of the show only had two words for him, "write faster."

We'll see if he really cares soon enough. I am a know the end type reader. If I get it from the shows, I definitely would have no interest in buying any more of his books.

I am the opposite, I will read the books for the sure beauty of the books. I am not in it to just find out how it ends, I truly enjoy the world that Martin has created and the way he has painted it with his beautiful prose and amazing characters. Plus there are so many characters in the story that are not in the show, they are really different beasts. I want to live in George's world as long as possible and will not miss a word.

That said, when the show catches up with Martin (which I think will be while waiting for aDoS) I will stop watching the show so as not to interfere with my enjoyment of the last book. If I happen to find out some spoilers, I am still reading that book, probably at least 3 times over.

[HexMachina]

And I absolutely loved the pacing of ADwD and AFfC, although I don't agree with the ADwD/TWoW cut-off point.

Thats my biggest gripe with aDwD too, that it cut off just before the big build-ups pay off. But nevermind, makes for a more, ah, eventful Winds of Winter

[Les Météores D]

Having made it through the entirety of the thread, it has been fascinating reading everyone's opinion. It has reminded me about my one time fascination with Thomas Hardy novels. When I was in high school, my english teacher showed us "Far from the Madding Crowd" starring Julie Christie. I loved the movie so much I bought the novel and read it. I found the writing in the novel to pretty heavy going. I seem to remember a description of a field taking three pages and then nothing even happening in that field. Since I loved the story in the novel, I overlooked the problems I saw in the writing and went on to read "Tess of the d'Urbervilles" and "The Mayor of Casterbridge". By the time I had finished "The Mayor of Casterbridge" I couldn't face reading another Thomas Hardy novel. While I loved the stories he told, his writing style was problematic for me. I tell this story to point out that I get how people can love the books so much they end up on a fan site, but still have deep criticism of the books.

Having said that, I love GRRM as an author. I have no problems with his writing style. In fact, I find it quite immersive. Some things that some people dislike don't even draw my attention (like phrases repeated too often). I also love the story. I am one of those people that really liked AFFC and ADWD. Not only do I like them, I think they are two of the best books in the series. I sometimes think this is because they were actually pretty much what I expected. I read the first four books right after the first season of series ended and only had a two week wait until ADWD came out. I also knew about the scrapped five year time gap from my daughters. I expected to read about a series of rather minor events that would have their payoff in future books. After all, this was GRRM's stated reason for writing these two books. This strongly influenced my reading of these books and I think it is why I often find I have rather unconventional interpretations of what is going on compared to others on the board. :drunk: Where some people see filler material, I see an evolving story. I could be wrong.

So is GRRM a bad writer? I don't think so, but that is just my opinion.

It's funny because I decided to read Jude the Obscure and Tess of the d'Urbervilles after watching the film adaptions (excellent btw) by M. Winterbottom and R. Polanski, and I loved the novels. Jude is one of my favorite ever and I think Thomas Hardy is a genius :bowdown: (but I understand why some wouldn't... strange)

[Carey Snow]

I think being a great writer goes beyond simply writing well. Being a great writer translates into a lot of things, just like being great at anything translates into a lot of things.

Before anything else, I don't want you to confuse being a great writer with being a successful writer. Those two can be mutually exclusive.

Martin has a way with words. I don't think anyone can disagree with this. He has shown his ability to write beautifully. However, he has always shown his ability to lose his focus, his ability to control a story and an overall inability to maintain work ethic. All of those are things writers need to be considered great.

I think many of his weaknesses are being exacerbated by his inability to maintain his work ethic. Robert Jordan also lost control of his story for about three books. However, that loss of control spanned 3 years for three books. Not eleven.

In addition, Martin's argument about "always being a slow writer" doesn't stand up to facts. He wrote three marvelous books in a publishing period of 4 years. It is easy to understand why; he was struggling financially. The point being he CAN write quickly when he needs too. He has lost the NEED to buckle down and get it done though.

I wish the man happiness and I am glad he found success after 40 years of struggle. However, I do also believe in looking at the facts from a logical, honest and intelligent point of view. The facts are he is enjoying his money and fame, as is his right. It doesn't exclude him from criticism though.

His failure to follow through on his creation, or even make an attempt to follow through, has diminished him as a writer in my opinion. It is a package deal. He is redeemable still, and I find myself firmly believing he will publish WOW by 2015 because he MUST to prevent HBO from overtaking him(which it has told him it will). He can get it done when pushed.

I disagree about George having a poor work ethic, George has worked on many other projects in addition to aSoIaF. I think it was more an issue of George losing that creative spark for the two transition books, and that they were not up to his standards, so he had to do a lot of rewriting and restructuring. That killed his joy in writing them. Now, they are still great books but they were a bear for him to create. From all indications, aWoW is going much more smoothly nd George has alo eliminated many of his side projects.

It is not really fair to compare Martin to Jordan. I like Jordan and think he wrote a fine story. But it is not any where near as complicated as aSoIaF which has all the different plot lines, complex characters, foreshadowing that Martin has graced us with. Jordan wrote a much more straightforward story that would take much less time to write. Martin can write himself into mistakes because of the complex plot, and then has to start all over again. I do not want to get into Jordan vs Martin debate as it is not comparing apples to apples, two totally different styles of storytelling. One would obviously be more time consuming.

[GERM]

It is not really fair to compare Martin to Jordan. I like Jordan and think he wrote a fine story. But it is not any where near as complicated as aSoIaF which has all the different plot lines, complex characters, foreshadowing that Martin has graced us with. Jordan wrote a much more straightforward story that would take much less time to write. Martin can write himself into mistakes because of the complex plot, and then has to start all over again. I do not want to get into Jordan vs Martin debate as it is not comparing apples to apples, two totally different styles of storytelling. One would obviously be more time consuming.

.......

Ummm, Jordan's world was far, far more complex. I find Martin's story to be fairly predictable honestly. I can't think of a single mystery in his books that doesn't have a very pointed answer to it if you simply read with insight. I am unsure as to what books of Jordan's you were reading.

That being said, I made the comparison simply to talk about pacing. Jordan was as good, and probably better, in all aspects of writing than Martin. Nonetheless, I wasn't making that comparison.

Secondly, I don't know what side projects of Martin's that you're referring too. He has edited a few books and writes one show a season for AGOT and wrote two small novellas. Unless you're talking about vacations, interviews etc. which I agree, have been numerous. Also, I haven't really found any of his "side-projects" that fantastic.

I mean, Brandon Sanderson, who may not be as prolific of a writer as Martin, is one of the best world-builders of the genre IMO. He managed to write 4 books this year alone and is starting his next large installment of the Stormlight archive. I would consider those valid, time consuming side-projects.

[The One And Only]

He introduced The Whites beyond the Wall in the very first pages of the very first book. He is now done with 5 books and that story line has almost not advanced at all.

Not good.

He has some great strong qualities, but this story has gotten away from him.

[The One And Only]

The show has sort of ruined a lot of the great things about the books. And I don't mean that D&D did anything wrong. They have been awesome.

The books are vague and make people guess if people have duel identities or if there are grand schemes going on. The show has basically debunked most of this stuff. Most of the strong theories that were obvious have held true. The rest were just flat out wrong. And they make GRRM just seem like a writer who can't get a point across accurately. A writer who uses smoke and mirrors to cover up some of the boring plots going on. Way too many dead ends in the books.