GRRM is a bad writer?

[WTFSalami]

Each to their own I suppose. I had entirely too much fun reading those chapters to ever envision a book without them.

I also disagree that the ONLY thing we see different about her are her thoughts, her actions also go completely off the rails.

She starts drinking heavily, gaining weight, feeding innocent people to Dr. Qyburnstein, and having lesbian sex because she wants the feeling of dominating someone.

I always thought Cersei was a devious asshole throughout the first 3 books, but book 4 was clearly a marked change into complete evil insanity for me.

[James Arryn]

Sorry. Do you not have Youtube in America? 30 years.

If this is about Countdown, mea culpa I guess, though I'm Canadian. But as Anglophilic as I am, there are still elements I completely fail to notice. I thought a full English breakfast just meant as distinct from a Continental one, and was therefore flabbergasted when enough food to feed a circus was freighted to my table.

[Cas Stark]

Each to their own I suppose. I had entirely too much fun reading those chapters to ever envision a book without them.

I also disagree that the ONLY thing we see different about her are her thoughts, her actions also go completely off the rails.

She starts drinking heavily, gaining weight, feeding innocent people to Dr. Qyburnstein, and having lesbian sex because she wants the feeling of dominating someone.

I always thought Cersei was a devious asshole throughout the first 3 books, but book 4 was clearly a marked change into complete evil insanity for me.

I agree w/you on the the Cersei POVs, they saved the book, without them it would have been a complete snoozefest. They were awesomely hilarious.

[The Sleeper]

No he did not pull it off, we are mid-story of what should have been one single book, and the problems keep piling on. What you probably want to say is: "he pulled off rewriting one third of a book into three books before it started cracking at the seams".

Thank you, I know perfectly well I am saying. I didn't see any problems. I read through Feast and Dance as I did the first three and enjoyed them more on reread. So no cracking.

I am not getting why it's someone's business or not: the thread is about criticising Martin's writing ability, and I think lack of structure in storytelling is a flaw that can be criticised.

The criticism is not based on the actual content, but on background information from interviews and the time it has taken him to write it. All of that is ultimately irrelevant. There will be people who will read ASoIaF as a finished peace of work and how long it took him to finish it, or how he changed plans will not matter one bit.

It is an asspull that had to happen to explain Cersei's sudden paranoia, which was previously expected to evolve over the course of the five years gap. It is a stopgap measure, something that comes from the structural problem overhaul. It destroys Cersei as an ambiguous villain with believable reasons and makes her to be born evil, mad, a murderess, and her madness foretold. It deprives her of a lot of agency. Who cares if it's not a plot point? It perfectly illustrates the contrivances that Martin will use to get out of sticky situations.

Maggy was first mentioned in Storm as Sybele Spicer's grandmother. Set up in advance, so by definition not an asspull. As for who cares if it is a plot point, you mentioned it as one. I have already addressed all the rest you mentioned in the previous post form which you chose a single sentence to respond to, so I will refer to the five year gap. You base your conclusion on something other than the actual published material.

Tough luck that Martin is widely being compared to Tolkien, uses him as a benchmark down to the kind of ending he wants to write, and also feels pressure about being compared to him so much it affects his writing. (it's all from Martin interviews too.)

As for Tolkien, the raft still floats near one hundred year after he started writing, some Jackson guy used some of the blueprints to build a fucking Nimitz. Martin has not even finished the hull of his destroyer.

And Martin has gotten one of the most successful series in the history of television even before has finished the series. And that says what exactly about the books themselves?

You criticize Martin on grounds of story economy which is valid and kind of self-evident (it's five thousand pages long and not finished) and then you mention as a benchmark LotR? For real? It has some great moments in it but structurally it is largely incoherent and the plot could work with less than half of what is in it. Tolkien was an amateur. Writing was not his day job. And it shows.

I don't want to get into what Maritn has said or why he has said it, or what he feels pressure about, because ultimately I don't care.

[sj4iy]

I guess I'm just somebody who has no problem wallowing in this world that Martin has created. If he wants to write 20 books I'm on board. I'm never going to complain about MORE Westeros and Essos.

For me, I love reading the books...but I get impatient when the story stalls and nothing is happening to advance the plot in any discernible way. The same thing happened with the Dark Tower series, and I finally gave up on it. I'm not the type of person who can stay with one hobby for any significant amount of time before I feel the need to move on...at least, until something interesting starts to happen with a former hobby. That's my personality, really, and I've always been that way.

[GERM]

Each to their own I suppose. I had entirely too much fun reading those chapters to ever envision a book without them.

I also disagree that the ONLY thing we see different about her are her thoughts, her actions also go completely off the rails.

She starts drinking heavily, gaining weight, feeding innocent people to Dr. Qyburnstein, and having lesbian sex because she wants the feeling of dominating someone.

I always thought Cersei was a devious asshole throughout the first 3 books, but book 4 was clearly a marked change into complete evil insanity for me.

She never got into it, but she wondered what it would be like to dominate. She wants a cock between her legs, she's always been that way.

She killed a girls pet to punish her for Joffrey and pushed her friend down a well (amongst many other things). She was always crazy and evil, no descent was needed.

[GERM]

There will be people who will read ASoIaF as a finished peace of work and how long it took him to finish it, or how he changed plans will not matter one bit.

Lol, are you one of those people who believe this story will be finished? How cute, lol.

If AWOW is done by next year, it is a possibility. If Martin lets HBO overtake him, the written series will be finished IMO.

[shadowofasshai]

If this is about Countdown, mea culpa I guess, though I'm Canadian. But as Anglophilic as I am, there are still elements I completely fail to notice. I thought a full English breakfast just meant as distinct from a Continental one, and was therefore flabbergasted when enough food to feed a circus was freighted to my table.

Sausage, bacon, egg, hash brown, baked beans, mushrooms and in some places black pudding still.

It's unfair for George to be introduced to new readers as the American Tolkein. I think the realistic politics and brutality and irrational magic mean that ASOIAF will never be compared to the bible but the increasing readership and the numbers on this forum show he might know a thing or two. It's not for us to criticize George's decisions in narrative, it's his artwork and i suppose he wants its imperfectness to reflect the nature of his world?

[GERM]

It's not for us to criticize George's decisions in narrative, it's his artwork and i suppose he wants its imperfectness to reflect the nature of his world?

That's where you're wrong. We made him rich. We have every right to express distaste or anger towards a work product we're paying for. It is the price he pays for his profession. Newspapers, magazines, artists, news agencies and musicians face the same criticism. I don't know when the PC thing to do was to lay back and be a sheep to avoid sounding unfair or avoid hurting a person's feelings, but it isn't right.

[sj4iy]

It's not for us to criticize George's decisions in narrative, it's his artwork and i suppose he wants its imperfectness to reflect the nature of his world?

Nothing is above criticism. He can make any decision he wants to in regards to his books, and that is his right...just as it is our right to criticize those decisions when we don't like them. We can also like the books despite their flaws, just as we can like the show despite its flaws. Anyone who says that either version is perfect and without flaws is simply being biased....just like anyone who says that one version or the other is terrible and awful.

[Good Guy Garlan]

It's unfair for George to be introduced to new readers as the American Tolkein. I think the realistic politics and brutality and irrational magic mean that ASOIAF will never be compared to the bible but the increasing readership and the numbers on this forum show he might know a thing or two. It's not for us to criticize George's decisions in narrative, it's his artwork and i suppose he wants its imperfectness to reflect the nature of his world?

So..you're saying that even Martin's mistakes are on purpose?

[shadowofasshai]

That's where you're wrong. We made him rich. We have every right to express distaste or anger towards a work product we're paying for. It is the price he pays for his profession. Newspapers, magazines, artists, news agencies and musicians face the same criticism. I don't know when the PC thing to do was to lay back and be a sheep to avoid sounding unfair or avoid hurting a person's feelings, but it isn't right.

Something like this needs to be thought of in posterity, what will people think in 60 years. With the TV series it's of that magnitude. I know it frustrating not knowing how it will end but it is like seeing a Picasso 2/3 done or an Henry Moore, We Have No Idea What It Will Be. There could well be things hidden in plain site for future books to point out in the things other people are pointing out.

Do I think George would be offended if I wrote that he has a bad story? No. He would think I was crazy for thinking him to be bad after reading his whole series so far and referencing unresolved narrative as an issue.

[GERM]

Something like this needs to be thought of in posterity, what will people think in 60 years. With the TV series it's of that magnitude. I know it frustrating not knowing how it will end but it is like seeing a Picasso 2/3 done or an Henry Moore, We Have No Idea What It Will Be. There could well be things hidden in plain site for future books to point out in the things other people are pointing out.

Do I think George would be offended if I wrote that he has a bad story? No. He would think I was crazy for thinking him to be bad after reading his whole series so far and referencing unresolved narrative as an issue.

We'll see. I have said a million times I hope he proves me wrong.

That being said, if we get the Greyjoy narrative simply to bring ships and the horn to Daenrys, I am going to flip my shit lol.

[sj4iy]

Something like this needs to be thought of in posterity, what will people think in 60 years. With the TV series it's of that magnitude. I know it frustrating not knowing how it will end but it is like seeing a Picasso 2/3 done or an Henry Moore, We Have No Idea What It Will Be. There could well be things hidden in plain site for future books to point out in the things other people are pointing out.

Do I think George would be offended if I wrote that he has a bad story? No. He would think I was crazy for thinking him to be bad after reading his whole series so far and referencing unresolved narrative as an issue.

Even if the next two books were better than ASoS, that still wouldn't make the past two books better by default. The overall work can be great, yet have parts within that suffered...and in this case, they suffered needlessly because they were drawn out too much with too many new characters thrown at us and the character we knew and loved doing almost nothing interesting at all.

Also, 'imperfectness' isn't a word. It's 'imperfection'. Sorry, that was bugging me.

[WierWood Wolf]

The story slowed down, it didn't decay. I think Martin's story has started to decay. Jordan gave us excitement even in his slower books. We have little to none of that in the last two books. We'll see though, I have said this a million times that Martin is redeemable, but he needs to rebound.

I may not have such dismal outlook if he included the battle scenes he seems to have taken out of ADWD. AFFC and ADWD were droll books and nothing can change that. Jordan's books weren't droll, every book had a considerable amount of action in them, they just moved slowly. Martin, on the other hand, had 2 slow books with nothing but "where do whores go."

Have you tried Glen Cooks Cronicles of the Black Company? I enjoyed those. They are pretty dark, with fine characters and lots of battles.

[Errant Bard]

Thank you, I know perfectly well I am saying. I didn't see any problems. I read through Feast and Dance as I did the first three and enjoyed them more on reread. So no cracking.

Good for you. Not self-evident for everyone, unlike you seem to imply though.

The criticism is not based on the actual content, but on background information from interviews and the time it has taken him to write it. All of that is ultimately irrelevant. There will be people who will read ASoIaF as a finished peace of work and how long it took him to finish it, or how he changed plans will not matter one bit.

It is based on actual content, one only has to read the story, make a chronology, see the plot arcs, the main character narratives, and what came to graft itself on that to see it. The extra material from interviews only serves to explain why.

Maggy was first mentioned in Storm as Sybele Spicer's grandmother. Set up in advance, so by definition not an asspull.

Set up for the Jeyne/Robb love potion. It's not because the character exists that everything you make him do, especially a character changing action that the affected character never thinks about before, is not an asspull.

And Martin has gotten one of the most successful series in the history of television even before has finished the series. And that says what exactly about the books themselves?

That they are good source material, though the story is unfinished and they needed big structural changes to port to the screen. Isn't that you who was just saying "You base your conclusion on something other than the actual published material", though? I'd think you'd have the honesty to leave me to use stuff that's not the published material as an argument, following that.

You criticize Martin on grounds of story economy which is valid and kind of self-evident (it's five thousand pages long and not finished) and then you mention as a benchmark LotR? For real? It has some great moments in it but structurally it is largely incoherent and the plot could work with less than half of what is in it. Tolkien was an amateur. Writing was not his day job. And it shows.

I was talking of the writing of battles and the size of the book when I compared with Tolkien, not of the entirety of the story, and I was mentioning that Martin, and a lot of other people, used it as a benchmark so what you think is irrelevant. Stop trying to make me say things I never said beyond this.

I don't want to get into what Maritn has said or why he has said it, or what he feels pressure about, because ultimately I don't care.

Then stay out of the discussion when such things are brought up instead of acting as if citing interviews gave your dog cancer.

[Pod The Impaler]

Completely disagree. Those Cersei chapters were absolutely epic. That spiral into insanity may be the single best character arc in the entire series. I have gone back and read her chapters in AFFC and ADWD multiple times.

She is the most insanely entertaining character in the whole series.

Yeah, the Cersei POV chapters were entertaining, as we finally get to see the true depths of her vileness.

With other POV characters (such as Jaime), with each layer you peel back, you see someone who's not as bad as you may have thought. GRRM throws us a great curve with Cersei, since the deeper you go, the worse she is.

Only Cersei thinks it is a "curse" Maggy the Frog put on her; readers should not make the same mistake. The seer just extrapolated what was already right in front of her - a psychopath in full bloom.

She never got into it, but she wondered what it would be like to dominate. She wants a cock between her legs, she's always been that way.

Yeah, some say Cersei is a lesbian due to that scene, but I also think it shows she isn't. I guess Cersei was what you might call bi-curious, and even then not truly.

The only part that seemed to turn Cersei on was imagining the violence of ripping into someone, and Taena's pleasure seemed to turn her off. As you say, it was the idea of the king queen being able to take whatever she wants, but I suppose while trying it with Taena, she found it bored her, and she callously kicked Taena out of the room. (Did Taena have hurt feelings, after being led on then discarded like that? Cersei doesn't know or care. Considering what happens to Cersei's schemes later, this may be significant.)

[JonisHenryTudor]

Sorry. Do you not have Youtube in America? 30 years.

Youtube is owned by google....so yes. Why?

[JonisHenryTudor]

Thank you, I know perfectly well I am saying. I didn't see any problems. I read through Feast and Dance as I did the first three and enjoyed them more on reread. So no cracking.

The criticism is not based on the actual content, but on background information from interviews and the time it has taken him to write it. All of that is ultimately irrelevant. There will be people who will read ASoIaF as a finished peace of work and how long it took him to finish it, or how he changed plans will not matter one bit.

Maggy was first mentioned in Storm as Sybele Spicer's grandmother. Set up in advance, so by definition not an asspull. As for who cares if it is a plot point, you mentioned it as one. I have already addressed all the rest you mentioned in the previous post form which you chose a single sentence to respond to, so I will refer to the five year gap. You base your conclusion on something other than the actual published material.

And Martin has gotten one of the most successful series in the history of television even before has finished the series. And that says what exactly about the books themselves?

You criticize Martin on grounds of story economy which is valid and kind of self-evident (it's five thousand pages long and not finished) and then you mention as a benchmark LotR? For real? It has some great moments in it but structurally it is largely incoherent and the plot could work with less than half of what is in it. Tolkien was an amateur. Writing was not his day job. And it shows.

I don't want to get into what Maritn has said or why he has said it, or what he feels pressure about, because ultimately I don't care.

Not trying to be rude, but Tolkien was an academic so writing most definitely was his day job.

Also I would be careful to associate television time with greatness. I believe aSoIaF is one of the greatest series to be written in this genre.

Harry Potter was good, but no where near aSoIaF, yet JKR is a multimillionaire now. Twilight has raked in a ton of cash, yet......

Speaking of books gone TV, apparently King Killer Chronicles is also going tv....Fox though......

[JonisHenryTudor]

Sausage, bacon, egg, hash brown, baked beans, mushrooms and in some places black pudding still.

It's unfair for George to be introduced to new readers as the American Tolkein. I think the realistic politics and brutality and irrational magic mean that ASOIAF will never be compared to the bible but the increasing readership and the numbers on this forum show he might know a thing or two. It's not for us to criticize George's decisions in narrative, it's his artwork and i suppose he wants its imperfectness to reflect the nature of his world?

Martin did make a statement regarding this actually. Forget where but he said something along the lines of "if you don't like my story or aspects of it, go write your own story and make it your own..."