Knights in Shining Armour - Rereading the Kingsguard.

[Booknerd2]

Nice start, booknerd2.

I really think the readers reaction to Sandor is very interesting here. That's not to say bookerd2 isn't absolutely right in the post above, or that Sandor is a bad guy (I actually really like him) but think about: What does he actually do? Is he the typical fairy tale knight that swoops in and saves the girl? Is he the man who steps in and stops them from beating Sansa? No, he is not. He stands by watching it. He brings her to Joffrey, knowing what will happen. He only disobeys the king when it is clear that the power balance in the room has shifted, when Tyrion enters and everybody sooner or later realizes that he has more power.

Yet, in this chapter, we '(at least I) view Sandor extremly positive. That has to do with a few factors. For one, he is honest with Sansa. He tells her that and why she is in trouble, what, in the typical fairy tale, would mean nothing, but in this world in that city means the world to both Sansa and the reader. She isn't going blind. That is way more than we've learned to expect from any of the other players in the capital, save for maybe Tyrion. It also reinforces a theme with Sandor: He will not lie. He is willing to do certain things that are morally repulsive, but he will not lie, at least not to Sansa. Also interestingly, Joffrey doesn't even ask him to beat her. Maybe he knows that would be going to far? Sandors second positive action in this chapter is to say "Enough" after a while of Ser Boros beating Sansa. It's nothing, when you look at it. Joffrey pretty much ignores it, Sansa notes it but doesn't think about it. It's not pulling out his sword and running Ser Boros through. But it is doing something, which is more than anyone expect Dontos is doing (And how sad is it just how grateful Sansa is for the utter humilitation of being beaten with a fruit by a fool to the laughter of the court?!). It's also speaking up to a cruel and mad king without holding any power on his own, so he is in a different situation from Tyrion, who actually wields quite a huge power. The third thing he does is giving his cloak to Sansa. As said above, he only does that after Tyrion said so, and Tyrion makes it very clear that he is the most powerful in that room. Yet, there is no hesistation to rip of that cloak that gives Sandor his position. The cloak is the symbol of the KG, wrapping somebody in one's cloak is basically a symbol of giving that someone your protection. That Sansa is wrapped in the cloak of the very organisation that threatens her most is irony at it's finest.

So I guess my point is that compared to what the KG's reputation is, to what the KG itself should be, Sandor stands out as not fitting and definitively not the best guy. Compared to what the KG actually is, however, he looks damn good.

PS: booknerd2, when will you post part 2?

I am fixing a few things on part 2 but I will have it up soon.

Sandor is conflicted. He won't lie, definitely, but he starts to realize over time, that his actions are not matching his honest words either. I think the BlackWater was the last straw, but he was starting to realize way before that, that this life and what he has to do isn't for him. And totally his allegiance for the Lannisters is gone. I give Sansa credit as being the catalyst for his change, I don't think it may have happened or not as fast without her in his life.

I am going to touch upon that too. That for some reason, Joffrey doesn't bother with asking the Hound to hit Sansa, after that first time. Even Sansa says in COK, something to the effect of, "He has his other 5 for that."

The cloak is the cloak. Not the last time he will give her one. That is important on many levels.

And he leaves the KG on his own. Even Barristan was sort of fired or forced into retirement, before he made his grand exit.

It was great too because I was re-reading some COK stuff and I checked out again the Sansa chapter with Joff's Name Day. The Hound is brilliant, because he does answer Joffrey sarcastically and snootily, but Joff is too dim to get it. But a little bit of me thinks that subconsciously, Joff didn't mind having that one person who does that. There were a few zingers, that if Sansa had said them, his reaction would be have been different, he would have accused her of mocking him. But the Hound does it so subtly.

[Booknerd2]

Sansa III – COK – Part 2 (Final part)

“The longer you keep him waiting, the worse it will go for you.”

This is Sandor’s warning to Sansa.

And basically the advice and where it is coming from that we looked at in Part 1.

Her panicking is heart-wrenching through her inner monologue. She is nervous and hopes to do the little things she can: look pretty, wear a particular color, to hopefully give Joffrey one less strike against her. She fears Illyn and what might have happened to Jaime. The Hound informs her that it is the Robb, King of the North, thing that has angered Joffrey.

Sansa gives the Hound her robotic “ fill in Stark family member name is a traitor.”

He knows why she is doing it and that she doesn’t mean it. “They trained you well, little bird.”

The suck-ups and fakes in the court are either giving her insolent looks or ignoring her completely. Yeah, the she has cooties act. People fear giving any indication of a greeting, smile, anything, because they don’t want to be seen doing anything positive for Sansa. We know the Robb news has apparently spread.

Also, the fear of Joffrey and his violence, vengeful personality, and causing havoc on a whim is spreading in court.

People seem to know how is he is now.

I will skip the cat and the crossbow. Really, I heard enough from Robert about the pregnant cat and just can’t go through this again.

But Joffrey is doing this in public on the throne. We don’t get it screen time, but you know people are looking at this and shaking their head internally.

Dontos enters on a wooden stick horse. Well, at least his life was spared. And he does touch her arm and advise her to have courage. The only one with balls to address her… And, ok he could have drank a bit to take off the edge, so liquid courage could be in place.

Joffrey says she has to answer for Robb’s actions. Let me repeat that. She is nowhere near him or in any type of communication, but Joffrey is taking it out on her. Er, because she has wolf blood. Well, she does, and wolves like Big Nyms are going to cause some major problems for enemies in future, but we have to wait.

We know him. No explanation or rant required here. He is one sick cookie.

Lancel goes blah, blah, blah about sorcery, cannibalism, unnatural wolves, and Robb and his troops, etc.

Dontos defends Sansa again.

And Joffrey, never a stickler for details, accuses the wrong direwolf of chomping on him. Sansa has to gently correct him that Lady did nothing, and died for it.

I will never forgive Joff and Cersei for Lady…EVER!

Joffrey reminds her that he killed her father, and there was, you know, some peasants at the gate pleading for bread and calling his name, so he used his crossbow to shoot one in the throat. He got some woman in the arm, unfortunately, and regrettably, he would kill Sansa too but he wants his uncle back first.

He also says that a message will be sent to Robb that he needs to fall into line or she will be hurt.

But on to the main scene…

Let us not forget Joff’s ordering of Sandor to: “Dog, hit her.”

We don’t get a reaction though we can probably guess what he is thinking. Also, it was convenient of the author, for more on how Sandor views Sansa would come out in later chapters and culminate in the big showdown before he left KL for good. So we can guess, but what he would do for her is not confirmed. We get that later in the series. He goes to his “death” thinking of what he could have done more for her, and regrets how he didn’t.

Cause I know for damn sure that Novice Brother Halloween costume has got to go sometime or other.

Dontos relieves him of having to answer or act. A fine piece of literary convenience right there, too. We don’t get to see Sandor’s reaction, because it is supposed to come in later chapters in the story.

I don’t know how Sandor could have diffused it in front of a crowd. I really don’t. He had just advised her to play the game.

Dontos cuts in with comic relief and obviously a diversionary tactic. I think he knows that a blow from the Hound would he hard and she would be injured and he totally did the admirable thing.

Also, Joffrey has brought him so low and has publicly humiliated and embarrassed him so often, it took a lot of courage and lack of any type of ego to act a fool to help someone. To be honest, Dontos’s life, really any future, was over at the Duskendale incident. You think of Barristan asking Aerys and how kind it was, and then you see what happened to him. Like he didn’t grow up and hear it and that hadn’t affected him. Right….Sad. So the poor guy found comfort in the wineskin.

Joffrey then calls out “Boros. Meryn.” He does not call out a specific order. They are ass-kissers that have already surmised that they have to step in. They seem to know Joffrey and what to do.

Funnily enough, Joffrey does not recommend Sandor, and it is never mentioned again. I always wondered in the back of my mind, that even if Joffrey was not exactly conscious of it, he somehow felt that asking again would be toeing the line with his dog. Like he didn’t even want to go there and just didn’t for whatever reason. Like he senses not to go there…

But also a device of the author to not get clarification yet regarding Sandor’s feelings for Sansa, he takes him out of the line of fire, and keeps him in bystander mode, so we don’t have to see him make any kind of decision or statement yet.

No instructions, but Trant grabs Dontos by the arm and flings him out of the way. Very KG. He’s not Errol Flynn, that’s for damn sure. Not that smooth… Let me stop you from hitting her with a melon, Dontos, so we can.

Arthur Dayne would be turning in his grave. Well, I think. Let’s hold off on him until I tackle Eddard X.

Boros seizes Sansa.

People were laughing. Joffrey was unmoved. Her humiliation as the butt of a joke was not enough. He did want her physically hurt. But not her face. He still wanted her pretty. He tells them to “leave her face. I like her pretty.”

It is pretty apparent he is attracted to her, well, as much as he can be. I won’t say Joff has feelings, but he is possessive and she appeals to him. We find that out later too when he informs her that even though they are both married, he can have her if he wants. Yech! Sansa’s thinking of his fat, wormy lips is just the best description. Joffrey is petulant and repulsive. Perfect description, GRRM!

Where does that equate slamming a fist into a young girl’s stomach, Boros? Their duty is to be Lannister sucks up, knowing now that if Barristan can be replaced so can they. Serve for life in the KG now means at the whim of a Lannister decision. Again, creating a climate for the disintegration of KG prestige and honor. But, would they ever have been, obviously by the type of nasty people they are, ever have been candidates if not for after a pushover King Robert period or reign and under the Lannister control?

No way.

But Boros is going to blow up as Tommen’s food taster one of these days anyway, so good riddance.

Note: As for Trant, I hate Trant because of Syrio. But he doesn’t hurt Sansa and go beyond overboard as Boros does. Uh, that day. Well, this time, because he has hurt Sansa and will. Jaime will take him also to task for it in future. It is remarked that he is cruel as well and another stunt dog of Cersei’s. So far he is still alive and well, but I think that will not be the case for him and his comeuppance is on the horizon.

There is something else there, a real mean streak and a desire to hurt, that is harbored under Joffrey, and though people laugh there are those that are probably remarking to themselves, would never object out of fear, thinking what a sick, crummy, bastard he is.

We learn throughout the series of Boros’ bad temper, and that people do not view him with any respect or positively at all.

And he probably is an angry, ugly man (confirmed) that knows it.

Jaime doesn’t think much of Trant, He is Cersei’s stunt dog, it is known, and he disrespectfully laughs at Barristan’s removal. So I am sure there was no love there among the 7. What I don’t want to get into because it would make for another chapter analysis, is Jaime directly bringing up the whole topic of this thread. He tells Trant that maybe you shouldn’t exactly stunt dog your way through the KG, that maybe you can do something if you doubt the King’s choices. But that is for another time.

And we know the difference. Would I bet money that Arthur or some of the other KG form the reputed past would not have viciously attacked her or just outright somehow have not done it. Yes. Do I have an idea how they could tactfully create a diversion or somehow extricate themselves, and diffuse the situation. Somehow not anger Joffrey in public when it looks like a refusal and not following an order to obey the king. No, I don’t know. And we have to guess because we are not given the opportunity to see what others with better reputations would have done.

So Boros grabs her hair and starts whacking her on the thighs with the flat of his sword. Totally not KG, it goes without saying…. and over the top unnecessary. He also makes a show of it to put that fear in her that she might get cut or killed. She is tearing and makes note of a scream and how painful it is. Saying that she lost count means there were a lot of blows, and feeling that her legs might break lets us know just how hard he was hitting her.

I remember reading it the very first time. I can now say much later that I really didn’t know what the hell was going to happen to her as I read. Very tense and emotional scene.

But it doesn’t end there.

The Hound does it. More like, he has had enough…”Enough.” He speaks out in front of the court and Joffrey.

Joffrey says “no.”

Because now King Sunshine tells Boros to strip her. Boros may be more angry and violent and a smidgeon more willing to do this than Trant, because Joff keeps asking him to do it. Not saying Trant is any better and he does hurt Sansa too, but Boros seems way more receptive.

Boros rips her gown by the bodice and exposes her down to the waist where she has to use her hands to cover her chest. And Joffrey tells him to beat her bloody.

These are people with issues. Not just beating, but using the nudity of a young girl to humiliate, besides the verbal humiliation, has nothing to do with dealing with Robb and the situation over Jaime, wanting to win against the Starks, their allies, and the North. Well, just about everything.

He knows it is wrong. He did grimace when Tyrion later mentions telling Cersei

Sansa is not on the battlefield, and the many other good points Tyrion brings up. Has no contact with her family. Is not responsible. And there are many issues to say the least about modesty, humanity, and treating noble, maiden ladies. How about humane treatment no matter what gender, social class, etc? Well, are we surprised, look at his track record with cats! He has no respect for life at all. This crossed the line. He just put the first nail in his own coffin Forgot PW, he was never going to last long. But some chose to do him in even earlier because of his behavior so this scene counts toward it definitely. LF knew of this and other things, and this surely was fresh in Tyrell minds from hearing of it at a later date. This wasn’t happening to Margaery down the road, for damn sure, and over Olenna’s dead body.

He did nothing but make himself and the KG look dishonorable, disgusting, and the list goes on. Because his family, even his mother will admit, and the formidable Tywin will see what Robert knew. That something is not quite right with him.

But nobody, though they think it, would dare to speak up from amongst those present.

Again, further damage is stopped by Tyrion’s entrance, so if anything was taken further, if Sandor did more, or whatever, we won’t know. And it was meant to be evasive.

Tyrion is the voice that we all had. And expresses what we and mostly everyone in that room was thinking.

I won’t quote every line because we know the great points he made, about telling them what the hell kind of knights hurt defenseless maidens.

Well, except for the sick, whackadoo few, and the heartless.

Boros and Trant rationalize to Tyrion that it is ok if it is following the King’s orders.

They demonstrate no shame or regret whatsoever.

Scary…

And now for the cloak. …Tyrion demands that someone give her something to cover herself.

Sandor is the first and only and rips off his white KG cloak to give her. Not the last time he will do this either…

I love her description too.

Sansa clutched it against her chest. Now obviously she is covering her front, but I like it as a tip of the hat to the future and the unkiss. Think of someone with a crush in old movies and stuff that holds a photo or a momento to their chest, their heart.

“The coarse weave was scratchy against her skin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine.”

Yeah, he is like that cloak. Abrasive, raspy, coarse, too but it is just the surface outward behavior, like the reference she makes to her skin. But it also feels right. Deep down there is good, something fine and soft like velvet.

A nice little tip too, but more on that in later chapters obviously. And hell, later books.

We also see Boros tell Tyrion not to talk to the King that way and that he will tattle tell to Cersei.

So there it is. No KG vows. He will do whatever Cersei tells him to do. That day was a very sad day in the history of the KG.

Tyrion points out other things, gives some great one-liners, and Sansa is escorted out and taken care of.

Sansa is bathed and can only think that this is nothing like the knights of the songs. A very hard lesson learned, her early childhood stories and fantasies up until she got to KL turned to mush. Really, it started this course with the death of Lady.

“Knights are sworn to defend the weak, protect women, and fight for the right, but none of them did a thing.”

She only gives credit to Dontos. Who she points out isn’t even a knight anymore.

She starts thinking about the Hound. He is not Sandor to her. But she agrees with him. She has taken on some of his views as her own, without realizingit. That should speak for itself for later.

“…no more than the Imp was, nor the Hound…the Hound hated knights…I hate them too, Sansa thought. They are no true knights, not one of them.”

They stink as knights, forget KG, which are supposed to be elite and held to an even higher level.

Tyrion and Sansa continue to talk but I will leave that be, for it hasn’t much to do with our thread topic.

.

[Queen Alienor]

Joffrey stood in the center of the throng, winding an ornate crossbow. Ser Boros and Ser Meryn were with him. The sight of them was enough to tie her insides in knots.

I thought this was an interesting description. The picture I got was the mafia boss standing there with his gorillas, or the mean dude in high school who wouldn't dare to be half so mean if he didn't have his clique around him. On the one hand, that is pretty much the opposite of what the honorable KG is supposed to be, but when you look at it more closely, isn't that exactly what the KG is all about? We don't have the KG vow, so we don't know what they swear, but both protecting the king and obeying him seem to be part of it. Now I don't want to defend Boros and Meryn here, but can they actually refuse a direct order? Ser Boros says something interesting when asked by Tyrion what sort of knight would beat helpless maidens.

The sort who serves his king.

I don't know, just putting it out there.

Interestingly, Ser Meryn doesn't say anything in this chapter. I kind ot thought he was the one to beat Sansa, but the only thing he does is flinging away Dontos. It is Ser Boros who beats Sansa, and it is Ser Boros who makes a fool out of himself with Tyrion. Interestingly, the moment he realises that Tyrion is there and won't be cowed by the KG or the king, he says:

The queen will hear of this.

That sounds almost like an angry kid saying: I will get the teacher. It is interesting, because it seems as though Ser Boros thinks Cersei, and not Joffrey, is the highest authority, the one Tyrion has to answer to. That opens the question how many of those KG would actually obey the king, if Cersei gave conflicting orders.

[DogLover]

Good work, booknerd2! The behavior of the Kingsguard in this scene, as well as others, is appalling (with the exception of Sandor, who no doubt is standing by seething before he shouts out "enough"). And those in attendance either snicker at her or divert their eyes. This is a corrupt and rotten court with a corrupt and rotten king. In addition to the treatment of Sansa, there's a complete lack of empathy for the commoners who are starving. Joffrey actually shoots one of them for asking for bread. The behavior of just about everyone involved is a far cry from the glamour Sansa was expecting of a great court.

[Booknerd2]

Good work, booknerd2! The behavior of the Kingsguard in this scene, as well as others, is appalling (with the exception of Sandor, who no doubt is standing by seething before he shouts out "enough"). And those in attendance either snicker at her or divert their eyes. This is a corrupt and rotten court with a corrupt and rotten king. In addition to the treatment of Sansa, there's a complete lack of empathy for the commoners who are starving. Joffrey actually shoots one of them for asking for bread. The behavior of just about everyone involved is a far cry from the glamour Sansa was expecting of a great court.

Thanks!

This is one chapter where the cesspool of losers that Cersei harbors in the KG really is present to even more people in the throne room.

God, you know that there had to be peeps there that knew the finer ones, Dayne and such, and they must have been shaking their head.

Later on I signed up for Eddard X - TOJ. That one will be a doozy. LOL!

Looking forward to yours.

[DogLover]

Tyrion IX: The Riot (A Clash of Kings)

SUMMARY

The chapter opens with Tyrion attending a farewell ceremony for Myrcella Baratheon, who is about to embark on her voyage to Dorne. As member of the Kingsguard, Arys Oakheart has been assigned as her sworn shield and is going with her. As the ships pushed out from shore the crowd cheered and she smiled and waved as Oakheart stood behind her “his white cloak streaming.”

Prince Tommen cried as Myrcella sailed away, earning a rebuke from Joffrey, telling Tommen that princes don’t cry. Sansa defends Tommen by mentioning that Prince Aemon and Ser Arryk and Ser Erryk all cried (Arryk and Eryyk crying after giving each other mortal wounds). Joffrey tells Sansa to be quiet or else “I’ll have Ser Meryn give you a mortal wound.” Tyrion looks to see what Cersei might think of this, but supposedly doesn’t notice since she is captivated by something Ser Balon Swann is telling her. Tyrion wonders if Cersei is so blind that she doesn’t know Joffrey’s true nature.

After the ceremony the party moves out onto the narrow streets. The men of the City Watch hold back the crowd. Ser Jacelyn Bywater leads the procession with Ser Aron Santagar and Ser Balon Swann behind him. They’re holding the king’s banners, the lion of Lannister and the stag of Baratheon. Joffrey follows them with Sansa at his side. Sandor Clegane rides next to Joffrey and Ser Mandon Moorer rides beside Sansa. Tommen follows behind them with Ser Preston Greenfield “in his white armor and cloak”, and then Cersei and Lancel, who are protected by Ser Meryn Trant and Ser Boros Blount. Yet, rather than evoking awe, admiration, and respect, this procession only elicits dull resentment from the crowd. An uneasy Tyrion thinks about the precautions he’s seen to, but then thinks it wouldn’t be enough to quell trouble from spilling over. A few people from the crowd shout “Joffrey! All hail, all hail!”, but more telling and unsettling was the silence from the majority.

Halfway back to the gates a woman, who’s holding a dead baby, runs into the street. She manages to get through the guards and right in front of Joffrey and Sansa. Just as Joffrey is about to run her over, Sansa leans over and convinces Joffrey to act charitably. He tosses her a coin, but it drops and bounces into the crowd. Cersei tells Joffrey to leave her since she’s beyond help. The woman hears and turns to Cersei and begins to shout “Whore! Kingslayer’s whore! Brotherfucker!” At that moment, someone from the crowd throws dung at Joffrey, hitting him in the face. Livid, he demands that someone turn the culprit in just before commanding Sandor Clegane to go after him. Sandor obediently tries to follow the orders, but there’s no way to get through the crowd.

Bring me the man who flung that filth! Joffrey commanded. “He’ll lick it off me or I’ll have his head. Dog, you bring him here!”

Obedient, Sandor Clegane swung down from his saddle, but there was no way through that wall of flesh, let alone to the roof. Those closest to him began to squirm and shove to get away, while others pushed forward to see. Tyrion smelled disaster. “Clegane, leave off, the man is long fled.”

“I want him!” Joffrey pointed at the roof. “He was up there! Dog, cut through them and bring—“

At this point, the crowd’s anger and resentment reached a tipping point and they begin to shout obscenities at Joffrey, Cersei, and Tyrion, as well as demands for bread. They begin to surge and manage to break through the City Watch. Tyrion yells at Cersei to get back to the castle. As Joffrey wheeled his horse around in circles, someone from the crowd managed to grab hold of his leg. Ser Mandon Moore brought down his sword, severing the man’s hand from his wrist. Tyrion smacked the horse and it charged forward, breaking through the mob. As they made their way back to the gates, Tyrion realizes the Hound had vanished into the crowds while his riderless horse ran beside him. Tyrion also witnesses Ser Aron Santagar being pulled from his horse by the mob, the Baratheon banner torn from his hands. Ser Balon Swann dropped the Lannister bannister to draw his sword and slash at the crowd. Tyrion and Joffrey press on with Ser Mandon Moore to Joffrey’s left.

After they make it behind the castle gates Ser Mandon Moore helps a very shaken Joffrey off his horse as Cersei, Tommen, and Lancel make their way in with Ser Meryn and Ser Blount closely behind. Tyrion notices Boros’ blade is smeared with blood and Meryn’s white cloak had been torn from his back. A helmless Swann rides in on a lathered and bleeding horse. Jalabhar Xho tells them that he thought he saw Ser Preston Greenfield riding toward the High Septon’s overturned litter, but wasn’t entirely sure.

A livid Tyrion makes his way over to Joffrey who is screaming for vengeance and slaps him, shoves him, and then kicks him.

“They were traitors, “ Joffrey squealed from the ground. “They called me names and attacked me!”

“You set your dog on them! What did you imagine they would do, bend the knee meekly while the Hound lopped off some limbs? You spoiled witless little boy, you’ve killed Clegane and gods know how many more, and yet you come through unscratched. Damn you!” And he kicked him. It felt so good he might have done more, but Ser Mandon Moore pulled him off as Joffrey howled, and Bronn was there to take him in hand. Cersei knelt over her son, while Ser Balon Swann restrained Ser Lancel. Tyrion wrenched free of Bronn’s grip. “How many are still out there?” he shouted to no one and everyone.

After Lady Tanda frantically asks for someone to look for Lollys, Ser Boros Blount reports that Ser Preston Greenfield and Aron Santagar have not returned. At this point Tyrion realizes Sansa is missing. Concerned for Sansa’s safety for the sake of Jaime’s safety, Tyrion asks Mandon Moore where she was since he was Sansa’s shield. Moore, indifferent to Tyrion’s reproach, said he abandoned Sansa to protect the king after the Hound was mobbed; a move that Cersei quickly agreed was the right decision. She then orders Boros and Meryn back out into the mob to find Sansa. Boros reaction was clearly one of displeasure: “’Your Grace,’ he told the queen, ‘the sight of our white cloaks might enrage the mob.” Tyrion, furious by this response demands that they go back out and find Sansa: “The Others take your fucking cloaks! Take them off if you’re afraid to wear them, you bloody oaf…but find me Sansa Stark or I swear, I’ll have Shagga split that ugly head of yours in two to see if there’s anything inside but black pudding.” Boros is enraged by this comment and started to raise his sword, but Bronn pushes Tyrion behind him. A frustrated Cersei interrupts and demands that Boros follow orders: “Boros, you’ll do as you’re bid, or we’ll find someone else to wear that cloak. Your oath—“ Just at this point Sandor rides in on Sansa’s horse with Sansa behind him “both arms tight around the Hound’s chest.”

Tyrion asks Sansa if she’s all right and a shaken and frightened Sansa attempts to recount what happened, telling them that someone had tried to pull her from her horse but the Hound cut off his arm and killed him. Sandor, whose cloak is torn and stained, lifts Sansa from her horse and says someone should attend to the cut she received. Sandor also tells them that Santagar is dead, head bashed in. He mentions he gutted one of the attackers, but it was too late for Santagar. Lady Tansa asks him about Lollys, to which he responds that he never saw her. Sandor then asks where his horse is, telling them that if anything bad happened to it, someone would have to pay.

A fire breaks out in Flea Bottom and an exhausted Tyrion tells Bronn and Sandor to guard the water wagons and to prevent the flames from reaching the Guildhall of the Alchemists. Tyrion notices the fleeting look of fear in the Hound’s eyes and realizes he’s afraid of fire. The Hound agrees, but makes a point to tell Tyrion that he isn’t obeying Tyrion’s orders; he just wants to find his horse.

Tyrion then tells the remaining members of the Kingsguard and instructs them to tell the people to return to their homes and enforce a curfew. Meryn complacently tells Tyrion that “our place is with the king,” Cersei, angered by this response demands Meyrn to obey the Hand of the King and to disobey is treason. After exchanging a glace with Meryn, Boros asks Cersei if they should wear their cloaks earning a scathing response from Cersei: “Go naked for all I care. It might remind the mob that you’re men. They’re like to have forgotten after seeing the way you behaved out there in the street.”

OBSERVATIONS

DUTY: The chapter opens with Myrcella sailing off to Dorne with Ser Arys Oakheart, her sworn shield. The description of him standing behind her with his white cloak waving in the wind evokes the image of a chivalrous knight obediently and bravely doing his duty—protecting a princess. Almost immediately this is contrasted to Joffrey’s threat to Sansa that he’ll order Ser Meyrn to give her a mortal wound. And the readers know that Meryn would do exactly what Joffrey ordered and without remorse or guilt and with complete indifference. So, on one hand, there’s a member of the Kingsguard who obediently protects and looks after a princess and another who obediently assaults a young highborn girl, one who is expected to become their queen.

GRANDEUR: As the party moves out to the streets, the description of the royal household and the members of the Kingsguard holding the banners of House Lannister and House Baratheon sounds impressive and grand, but the starving people who make up the crowd only feel resentment. The royal family and the Kingsguard are not respected or loved, which is further illustrated when the crowd insults Cersei, Joffrey, and Tyrion.

LOYALTY: After someone throws dung at Joffrey, he commands Sandor Clegane, his sworn shield and member of the Kingsguard, to apprehend the guilty party. Sandor, without hesitation, tries to obey the king’s orders, but is unable to get through the crowd to the roof. Tyrion instructs Sandor to ignore the order, but Joffrey commands Sandor again to find the man who threw the dung. The crowd turns into a mob and they manage to break through the City Watch. The Hound disappears. It’s assumed he’s dead, but he eventually shows up with Sansa. The loyal dog who has long served the Lannister family, abandoned his post as Joffrey’s sworn shield to protect Sansa (an action that goes unnoticed due to the chaos). This is a treasonous act, but a chivalrous one, as well. Sandor chooses to rescue the damsel in distress, a common trope in tales about knighthood, rather than find his way back to the king’s side. Mandon Moore also abandons his post as Sansa’s shield in order to protect the king. While this angers Tyrion, Cersei states that Moore made the right decision.

OBEDIENCE: Tyrion is absolutely furious and accuses Joffrey of getting the Hound killed. Considering Tyrion and Sandor are far from friends, this suggests that Sandor is an extremely valued member of the Lannister household, valued even by Tyrion. This is reinforced again when Tyrion gives Sandor an order and Sandor makes a point to tell Tyrion he’ll do it, but not because he’s obeying Tyrion. When Moore tells Tyrion that his place is at the king’s side after Tyrion orders him back out into the crowds, Cersei immediately admonishes him and tells him that defying the Hand of the King is treason. Yet the Hound is not admonished for his disrespectful words. Even though he is the only member of the Kingsguard who isn’t a knight, his status among them seems to be elevated in the eyes of the Lannisters. He has been their loyal dog since he was twelve years old, after all. First acting as Cersei’s bodyguard, and then Joffrey’s.

COURAGE: Cersei and Tyrion are livid and disgusted by Blount’s and Moore’s hesitation to go back into the crowds to find Sansa. They accuse them of cowardice and both try to shame them. Cersei tells them they didn’t behave like real men. And Blount’s and Moore’s hesitation to go back into the crowd is starkly contrasted to Sandor’s and Bronn’s willingness to go back. While Sandor showed a fleeting glimpse of fear, he quickly suppressed it and went right back out with his white cloak on—it didn’t even occur to him to take it off. This act brings to mind the scene in which he tells Sansa not to fear Boros Blount: “Paint stripes on a toad, he does not become a tiger.” Sandor knows these men are cowards.

BROTHERHOOD: Not only do the present members of the Kingsguard appear unconcerned by Sansa’s fate, they don’t seem very concerned about their own sworn brothers. No effort on anyone’s part to find Sandor Clegane or Preston Greenfield. This lack of sentiment and commitment is also illustrated when Lord Commander Barristan is stripped of his cloak and his own men laugh at him (as previously discussed). When Sandor appears with Sansa, he makes it clear his number one concern is his horse. He displays a glimpse of concern for Santagar (master-at-arms, who, at one point, probably played a role in training Sandor), hacking down one of his assailants. But no concern for Lolly’s or any other.

It’s hard to imagine such indifference from Dayne, Hightower, and Whent. So, this brotherhood is really no longer any type of brotherhood at all. However, the Hound saving Sansa does demonstrate some semblance of emotional growth. Leaving his station as Joffrey’s sworn shield in order to protect Sansa illustrates that he’s slowly beginning to question his acceptance of the status quo and is shifting his allegiance from the Lannisters to Sansa. He’s breaking away. On the other hand, Cersei’s hand-picked men continue to lower the bar. This is an unsustainable system and the weight of corruption is leading toward a full-scale collapse.

Overall, it’s hard to fathom this spectacle unfolding if this was the Kingsguard under the command of Gerold Hightower.

[DreamSongs]

Booknerd2...WOW :blink:

Whenever I think of Boros Blount, Meryn Trant and Mandon Moore, I think of orcs. They are the only ones I truly hate for their apathetic approach. They do as they are commanded and no thought process is involved UNLESS it comes to saving their own asses. They automatically flood to Joffrey's side and huddle close to him once they are out of the danger zone. Cersei's and Tyrion's assessment of them is correct.

What goes on inside of their heads? 'Black pudding' as Tyrion surmises? Hours and hours spent silently observing Robert and Joffrey and there is nothing...no emotion, nothing. Do they just check out emotionally or half-sleep under their helms?

With Arys Oakheart on the way to Dorne, there are only two people left that can save the honor of the Kingsguard...a man who is no knight and a man that is said to have no honor.

[Mal Malenkirk]

An ironic addition to DogLover's observation is that Cersei herself, who in this chapter is less than impressed with the King's Guard, will use it to her advantage a few books later in her plot against Margaery when she maneuver so only a King's Guard can defend the young queen's honor in a trial by combat...

Also, isn't she and her family likely responsible for the decay of the King's guard? I'm pretty sure the like of Trant and Blount where selected by the Lannisters in the first place so to have them be furious at their incompetence is also pretty ironic.

[Hrafntýr]

Booknerd2...WOW :blink:

Whenever I think of Boros Blount, Meryn Trant and Mandon Moore, I think of orcs. They are the only ones I truly hate for their apathetic approach. They do as they are commanded and no thought process is involved UNLESS it comes to saving their own asses. They automatically flood to Joffrey's side and huddle close to him once they are out of the danger zone. Cersei's and Tyrion's assessment of them is correct.

What goes on inside of their heads? 'Black pudding' as Tyrion surmises? Hours and hours spent silently observing Robert and Joffrey and there is nothing...no emotion, nothing. Do they just check out emotionally or half-sleep under their helms?

With Arys Oakheart on the way to Dorne, there are only two people left that can save the honor of the Kingsguard...a man who is no knight and a man that is said to have no honor.

What you say here and booknerd2's analysis put an interesting spin on "obedience" and "courage" and "honor" and the interrelationship between them.

For the knight who has some sense of honor, obedience to morally problematic orders can be seen as a form of courage. I see something like this in the Hound's actions, which isn't a form of dumb obedience, but rather a fierce determination or will to self-mastery to drive himself to do the things he's told to do. Although it's hard to put a finger on it, I feel that the Hound's "style" of obedience, with orders carried out to perfection, somehow always manages to turn the gaze of those who would judge the act back on the person who gave the order. Like he's made an art form of obedience. Or has a philosophy of obedience.

For the knight who is without honor, obedience takes no courage at all. There's no internal struggle, no triumphant defeat of personal inclination, just a dull-witted "black pudding headed" following of orders. There's no art or philosophy in the behavior of Blount and Moore, whether their obedience or their disobedience.

[Booknerd2]

Booknerd2...WOW :blink:

Whenever I think of Boros Blount, Meryn Trant and Mandon Moore, I think of orcs. They are the only ones I truly hate for their apathetic approach. They do as they are commanded and no thought process is involved UNLESS it comes to saving their own asses. They automatically flood to Joffrey's side and huddle close to him once they are out of the danger zone. Cersei's and Tyrion's assessment of them is correct.

What goes on inside of their heads? 'Black pudding' as Tyrion surmises? Hours and hours spent silently observing Robert and Joffrey and there is nothing...no emotion, nothing. Do they just check out emotionally or half-sleep under their helms?

With Arys Oakheart on the way to Dorne, there are only two people left that can save the honor of the Kingsguard...a man who is no knight and a man that is said to have no honor.

Thanks!

It is very apparent it is a severed and highly divided KG. They could care less about ladies or each other. They are highly competitive and willing to put the heel to each other's necks to advance and to save their own.

[Booknerd2]

Tyrion IX: The Riot (A Clash of Kings)

SUMMARY

snip

Ha!

Even going back to the chapter I did and what Martin covered in there….Yeah, Cersei isn’t giving her daughter a mean and nasty KG she knows herself is no good. Yeah, right..., like Myrcella was getting Trant or Boros to travel fairly alone with. LOL!

Well, you know, Good Queen Cersei has to keep the losers and beaters with Sansa for Joffrey. Or she wants to keep the men she can keep under her thumb and control, too. Especially now with Tyrion back and acting as the Hand.

So even telling us she is well aware who is decent and who isn’t, herself, and that she doesn’t care about who she views as enemies, and how very self-serving she is.

And Arys too is an Oakheart, whose House doesn’t get along with Dorne and has a history, so that wasn’t a plus.

And Sandor, since the beginning of the chapter, we know he is shielding Joffrey, But we know he has another eye kept on Sansa. LOL! At all times...

Lovely. He risks it all to save her. Even jumps off Stranger and has to go back for him. A beautiful little nugget is his coddling over her cut. He does not want it to get infected, so he points it out. Love it!

[DreamSongs]

I agree Booknerd2...what we see is that Sandor is still a human being that has not been enslaved by the social mores of the time. He is much more down-to-earth. Sandor knows what the expectations for a knight are and fulfills that role (caring for the weak and innocent) much more readily than the Sworn Knights of the Kingsguard. Which leads to another interesting question...Do the Kingsguard vows override your original vows as a knight? Is it more important to defend the KIng than it is to defend the weak, ignorant and innocent that make up the realm? This is a central argument when we finally meet our knight with no honor.

[Booknerd2]

I agree Booknerd2...what we see is that Sandor is still a human being that has not been enslaved by the social mores of the time. He is much more down-to-earth. Sandor knows what the expectations for a knight are and fulfills that role (caring for the weak and innocent) much more readily than the Sworn Knights of the Kingsguard. Which leads to another interesting question...Do the Kingsguard vows override your original vows as a knight? Is it more important to defend the KIng than it is to defend the weak, ignorant and innocent that make up the realm? This is a central argument when we finally meet our knight with no honor.

Love that…because to me, Sandor has the honor and lines to draw and standards, but refuses the bs titles such as knight, and the parts of their vows that are bs.

Like he doesn't want other people's bs and distortions, or their interpretations, to box him in. But….he does in a way respect vows and honor codes enough, that he won't swear a vow (knights) if he knows he can't be what they want him to be exactly.

Basically, if I can't be your cookie cutter, I will be true to myself, but also do you a favor too by not joining your baggage train.

He seems to hate labels too, which is great. He knows: I'm not that guy. In many instances...

And his blunt attitude towards the Lannisters was always: Take it or leave it? And they took it.

[LongRider]

Big ole bump! Great thread! :commie:

Also, isn't she and her family likely responsible for the decay of the King's guard? I'm pretty sure the like of Trant and Blount where selected by the Lannisters in the first place so to have them be furious at their incompetence is also pretty ironic.

I put the start of the decay of the KG when Robert Baratheon gave Jaime Lannister a pardon for killing Mad King Aerys. He allowed a kingslayer and an oathbreaker to remain in the guard. Even if he wanted to give Jaime a pass because he killed Robert's enemy, he could have pardoned him and sent him to the Wall, back to Casterly Rock or something along those lines. By keeping him in the KG with a pardon, well, that the beginning of the end as far I can see.

What you say here and booknerd2's analysis put an interesting spin on "obedience" and "courage" and "honor" and the interrelationship between them.

For the knight who has some sense of honor, obedience to morally problematic orders can be seen as a form of courage. I see something like this in the Hound's actions, which isn't a form of dumb obedience, but rather a fierce determination or will to self-mastery to drive himself to do the things he's told to do. Although it's hard to put a finger on it, I feel that the Hound's "style" of obedience, with orders carried out to perfection, somehow always manages to turn the gaze of those who would judge the act back on the person who gave the order. Like he's made an art form of obedience. Or has a philosophy of obedience.

For the knight who is without honor, obedience takes no courage at all. There's no internal struggle, no triumphant defeat of personal inclination, just a dull-witted "black pudding headed" following of orders. There's no art or philosophy in the behavior of Blount and Moore, whether their obedience or their disobedience.

Great insights!

Ha!

Even going back to the chapter I did and what Martin covered in there….Yeah, Cersei isn’t giving her daughter a mean and nasty KG she knows herself is no good. Yeah, right..., like Myrcella was getting Trant or Boros to travel fairly alone with. LOL!

Well, you know, Good Queen Cersei has to keep the losers and beaters with Sansa for Joffrey. Or she wants to keep the men she can keep under her thumb and control, too. Especially now with Tyrion back and acting as the Hand.

So even telling us she is well aware who is decent and who isn’t, herself, and that she doesn’t care about who she views as enemies, and how very self-serving she is.

And Arys too is an Oakheart, whose House doesn’t get along with Dorne and has a history, so that wasn’t a plus.

And Sandor, since the beginning of the chapter, we know he is shielding Joffrey, But we know he has another eye kept on Sansa. LOL! At all times...

Lovely. He risks it all to save her. Even jumps off Stranger and has to go back for him. A beautiful little nugget is his coddling over her cut. He does not want it to get infected, so he points it out. Love it!

Hi Bookie! :cheers:

[Booknerd2]

Big ole bump! Great thread! :commie:

I put the start of the decay of the KG when Robert Baratheon gave Jaime Lannister a pardon for killing Mad King Aerys. He allowed a kingslayer and an oathbreaker to remain in the guard. Even if he wanted to give Jaime a pass because he killed Robert's enemy, he could have pardoned him and sent him to the Wall, back to Casterly Rock or something along those lines. By keeping him in the KG with a pardon, well, that the beginning of the end as far I can see.

Great insights!

Hi Bookie! :cheers:

Hey, what's up?

I'm just bouncing around between the threads...