Knights in Shining Armour - Rereading the Kingsguard.

[HexMachina]

Okay, one week it is. Ignore the OP, I'm still fiddling about with it.

First chapter analysis, aGoT, Sansa V will be posted tomorrow at some time :)

[DreamSongs]

A week sounds good. We can always speed up if need to :)

[HexMachina]

Sansa V, A Game of Thrones – Barristan’s Dismissal

Summary:

Sansa is attending the first Court session of Joffrey’s reign. The pageantry of the Court is significantly diminished here – Robert’s hunting tapestries have been torn down, there are no smallfolk present, and only a handful of lords are in attendance, “where a hundred had been accustomed to wait on King Robert.

Joffrey arrives in the throne room, escorted by six of the Kingsguard, with only Jaime Lannister absent. Joffrey states that it is his duty to punish the disloyal, and has Grand Maester Pycelle read out a list of nobles who must present themselves a swear fealty to Joffrey.

The names he read made Sansa hold her breath. Lord Stannis Baratheon, his lady wife, his daughter. Lord Renly Baratheon. Both Lord Royces and their sons. Ser Loras Tyrell. Lord Mace Tyrell, his brothers, uncles, sons. The red priest, Thoros of Myr. Lord Beric Dondarrion. Lady Lysa Arryn and her son, the little Lord Robert. Lord Hoster Tully, his brother Ser Brynden, his son Ser Edmure. Lord Jason Mallister. Lord Bryce Caron of the Marches. Lord Tytos Blackwood. Lord Walder Frey and his heir Ser Stevron. Lord Karyl Vance.

Lord Jonos Bracken. Lady Sheila Whent. Doran Martell, Prince of Dorne, and all his sons. So many, she thought as Pycelle read on and on, it will take a whole flock of ravens to send out these command.

And at the end, near last, came the names Sansa had been dreading. Lady Catelyn Stark. Robb Stark. Brandon Stark, Rickon Stark, Arya Stark. Sansa stifled a gasp. Arya. They wanted Arya to present herself and swear an oath…it must mean her sister had fled on the galley, she must be safe at Winterfell by now…

Joffrey then names his grandfather, Tywin Lannister, as the Hand of the King in Lord Eddard’s place. In place of Stannis Baratheon he names his mother, Cersei, and he has Janos Slynt raised to Lord of Harrenhal, and given a seat on the Council.

Joffrey’s final decree relates to Ser Barristan Selmy. The Council states that the King’s safety is of the utmost importance, and he is relieved of his position as Lord Commander. Barristan attempts to protest that the Kingsguard serve until death, and Cersei counters this with

“Who’s death, Ser Barristan” the Queen’s voice was soft as silk, but her voice carried the whole length of the hall. “Yours, or your King’s?”

“You let my father die,” Joffrey said accusingly from atop the Iron Throne. “You’re too old to protect anybody.”

Barristan recounts briefly his service as a knight of the Kingsguard, and lists the men he has served with, which Littlefinger cuttingly notes are all dead. Cersei informs him that in his place, Jaime Lannister will be raised to Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Ser Barristan is contemptuous, referring to Jaime as “the Kingslayer.”

Varys attempts to ease the tension, ensuring Barristan that he will be offered lands and a keep North of Lannisport. Barristan refuses, takes off his White Cloak and helmet, before declaring:

“I am a knight,” he told them. He opened the silver fastenings of his breastplate and let that fall as well. “I shall die a knight.”

Littlefinger quips that he will die a naked knight, prompting laughter from the Court, including Barristan’s former Sworn Brothers.

Ser Barristan draws his sword, prompting Ser Boros and Ser Meryn to step forward to stop him. Barristan scathingly tells them he cut through all five of them as easy as a dagger cuts cheese, before throwing down his blade and storming from the room.

Once he has left, Joffrey orders Gold Cloaks dispatched to seize him, before naming Sandor Clegane to the newly vacant position in the Kingsguard. Ser Boros points out that

“The Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard have always been knights,” Ser Boros said firmly.

The Hound dismisses this, and no further objections are raised.

The chapter concludes with Sansa pleading for her father’s life if he will confess his crimes. King Joffrey agrees that he will be merciful.

The Kingsguard:

• This chapter focuses on the dismissal of Barristan Selmy from the Kingsguard. It seems that this is the very first time this has ever been done.
• Cersei and the Small Council give reasons for his dismissal – the death of Robert has shown he is no longer capable of fulfilling his duties. It is obvious to the reader however, that the reasons they give are very thin; in truth they want a Kingsuard they know they can manipulate, and by dismissing Barristan somebody also takes the fall for Robert’s death.
• We get a little bit of information on Barristan’s history here::

Sansa watched as the knight peered up at his new king. She had never seen him look his years before, yet now he did. “Your Grace,” he said. “I was chosen for the White Swords in my twenty-third year.

• Its clear that in Barristan’s youth at least, the Kingsguard was a desirable station, and knights were chosen likely based on their prowess. Unfortunately, the Kingsguard have fallen somewhat since then. Barristan has served in the Kingsguard for around 40 years.

It was all I had ever dreamed, from the moment I first took sword in hand. I gave up all claim to my ancestral keep. The girl I was to wed married my cousin in my place, I had no need of land or sons, my life would be lived for the realm. Ser Gerold Hightower himself heard my vows…to ward the king with all my strength…to give my blood for his…I fought beside the White Bull and Prince Lewyn of Dorne…beside Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Before I served your father, I helped shield King Aerys, and his father Jaehaerys before him…three kings…”

• The Kingsguard is clearly a prestigious institution, and very desirable for any knight, the ultimate honour. Barristan was forced to abandon claim to Harvest Hall and break his betrothal to join, a considerable sacrifice, but one he doesn’t seem to regret. The key role of the Kingsguard is to live for and defend the King with all of his strength.
• Betraying these vows seems to be an unforgivable crime in Barristan’s eyes. We know from his POV in aDwD that he is conflicted about Aerys, yet he has no forgiveness for Jaime Lannister:

“The Kingslayer,” Ser Barristan said, his voice hard with contempt. “The false knight who profaned his blade with the blood of the king he had sworn to defend.”

Admitting this in front of Cersei and a Court of Lannister toadies doesn’t strike me as the smartest course of action…

• Barristan’s former Sworn Brothers don’t appear to have any sincere affection for Barristan. They laugh at his humiliation.

They all laughed then, Joffrey on his throne, and the lords standing attendance, Janos Slynt and Queen Cersei and Sandor Clegane and even the other men of the Kingsguard, the five who had been his brothers until a moment ago. Surely that must have hurt the most, Sansa thought. Her heart went out to the gallant old man as he stood shamed and red-faced, too angry to speak. Finally he drew his sword.

• Even in his anger, Barristan doesn’t take up arms against Joffrey. I think that while he would gladly serve Joffrey’s foes, he would never himself harm someone he has sworn to protect. He may agree with those he next serves fighting Joffrey, but I don’t believe he himself would ever harm Joff.
• The chapter also has the Hound being named to the Kingsguard. The Hound has never taken his knightly vows, due to his brother and his attitude in general towards knights. He agrees to become a Kingsguard, stating:

The Hound’s scarred face was hard to read. He took a long moment to consider. “Why not? I have no lands nor wife to forsake, and who’d care if I did?” The burned side of his mouth twisted. “But I warn you, I’ll say no knight’s vows.”

• According to Ser Boros Blount, The Sworn Brothers have always been knights. The Hound is adamant on not taking the vows though, and no-one seems inclined to object.

Conclusion:

This is a time of change for the Kingsguard, and has the breaking of some centuries old traditions. It is clear the Kingsguard is a shell of what it once was, and throughout the novels we will only see it become more disreputable.

[Queen Alienor]

Wow, I just found this thread, and I must say I find the idea of a KG reread very fascinating. The KG is an institution that throughout the books is shown to be quite well thought of, but especially through Sansa's experience and Jamie's recounting of the time serving under Aerys seems to be rotten on the inside.

I really like your summary of the important part here, HelenaAndTheMachine. There are several things that stood out to me in this chapter.

Ser Barristan - the last "true" Kingsguard?

Barristan Selmy has always appeared to be a polite, honorable, skilled knight. The reader learns to like him for this qualities, especially when it becomes evident that Ned Stark, the good man we expect to be our hero, greatly respect Barristan. In this chapter, Barristan himself enforces this about himself: He is proud to be KG knight, not because of the power or the wealth it might bring him, but because of what it stands for. Barristan believes in the ideal of the KG being made up from the greatest knights in Westeros. He recounts his tales about fighting with people who are long dead and have archived legendary status like Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower and Lewyn Martell. In doing so, he kind of pushes himself into the part of a legend, something people later commend on. He is the last survivor of a glorious generation of KG, so to speak.

Barristan is the one KG we can look at and say, yes, he is morally what we are told the KG should be. He is much like Ned in that, especially in this chapter: Honourable, dutiful, he believes in following his vows and doing the right thing, yet he isn't the big mastermind. Like HelenaAndTheMachine said, calling Jamie Lannister the "Kingslayer" in front of his family is not the most intelligent course of action.

Also, in this chapter we are reminded that Barristan is a master swordsman. He doesn't get to fight, but I always thought that the threat to do so was enough to shock the people around him, especially when Jamie wasn't there.

The Decay of the KG

This was the chapter where I first started to realize that the KG is in decay just as much as the NW is. When the knights who are sworn to be brothers start laughing at the hummilitation of one of their own, you just have to start questioning them. When Barristan with his tales of glory and his views on honor and knighthood that reflect Sansa's so much leaves and Sandor Clegane, who right from the beginning states that he will not become a knight takes his place, the reader is left with the feeling that the KG lost it's shining. This moment is symbolic for what is to come, for the end of the era of a KG that is respected and for the beginning of an era of untrustworthy, powerful and manipulated KG.

In this context it is interesting to consider that even Aerys glorious, larger than life KG commited some unspeakable acts of looking away and doing nothing in the face of horrible deeds. However, I think this will come up later, so I won't focus on it.

Loyality

It is interesting to me, that Barristan, for all his honor and general goodness, would have probably continued serving Joffrey had he not been dismissed. It's futile to think about it, I know, but I would have liked to see how he would have dealed with the Sansa situation. Would he have done what the king said, would he have argued? I do not think he would have point blank refused. He is to much of a KG for that, to much trained by the White Bulls credo of protecting the king and not judging him.

[Booknerd2]

I was thinking how the Lannisters contribute and create the climate for the breaking down of the King's Guard and tradition.

We could say Jaime started it before the Lannisters ever became the royal family, obviously with the act of killing King Aerys who he was supposed to guard instead.

Now I'm not saying that Barristan and Sandor are not two individuals that can make up their own minds and act, but yeah, they both definitely make decisions under the Lannister watch that I believe have not happened before regarding the KG.

1. Barristan refuses a sort of "retirement" and makes a show of taking off his symbols of KG and renouncing it. True, he is not the one that was told he couldn't continue of course. That is on Cersei and Joff and their council.

2. They did not care that Sandor set a unique precedent by refusing to be knighted. He is still allowed on the KG. They probably figure it was sort of what he was doing anyway as Joffrey's personal bodyguard, which tells you how much they value KG tradition. Because I think Cersei and her people really have no sense of the tradition and don't care to uphold it. It is anything to further their aims. Although this is more on her as Queen and Joff too than anyone else.

To Cersei, the KG is "a job." She believes they work for her. So she sets a precedent too. If you are not or the situation is not personally working for her, you are out. It is what happened to Barristan.

[WilliamWesterosiWallace]

I'd like to be a part of Jaime's analysis. He is one of my favorite characters, and I wasn't assigned any chapter yet, so, if there is no problem I'd like to claim Jaime's AFFC chapters III, IV and V and Jaime's ADWD chapter.

[DogLover]

My feelings for Barristan Selmy are conflicted. Very conflicted. I'm trying to be objective with the reread, but upon rereading this chapter it only reinforced my dislike for him. I think he's an incredible warrior, but is weak-willed. Based on Sansa’s observation of Selmy, especially in contrast to the current members of the Kingsguard, one initially thinks Selmy sets a high bar. Sansa’s perception of Selmy in his pristine white armor and chivalrous behavior is starkly contrasted to Ser Mandon Moore’s curiously dead white face and Ser Boros Blount’s apathy. To me, he’s initially set up as a paragon for the others. And his disdain for Jaime Lannister certainly shines through.

And while one can consider Barristan’s derisive remarks about Jaime the Kingslayer in front of the Lannister family a lapse in intelligence, I think it illustrates the absolute gall Selmy must be feeling. In addition to Cersie telling him he is too old and too weak to defend the king, he is hypocritically replaced with the Kingslayer. He’s too old to defend the king, but, as his replacement, Cersie and Joffrey are going to promote the Kingslayer to Lord Commander. A man who stabbed the king he swore to protect in the back. I don’t blame Barristan for not biting his tongue. He had every reason to be furious and taken aback considering the lack of information he had regarding Jaime’s motivations and the unprecedented act of dismissing a member of the Kingsguard.

On to the role of Lord Commander: When Cersie dismisses him, his own brothers laugh at him. Something that would never have happened if the Lord Commander had been dismissed with Dayne, Whent, and Hightower in attendance.They would have been appalled. It just wouldn't have happened. But Barristan is more than just a brother. He’s their Lord Commander. It was Barristan Selmy’s responsibility to instill the chivalric code of honor and a sense of brotherhood. But did he? These men don’t even see him as a leader.

Also, where was Barristan the Bold when Ned Stark’s men were being slaughtered? Barristan keeps silent when Ned is arrested, even though Robert declared Ned the protector of the realm. He also kept silent when Robert orders Dany's assassination. As far as the slaughter of Ned's entire household, Sansa even considers it unthinkable that Jeyne Poole's father, a steward who didn't even carry a sword, could have been killed. They even killed Septa Mordane. And while Barristan seemed shocked when Cersei tore the King’s word to shreds, he continued to be nothing more than a meek yes-man for the Lannisters until they dismiss him.

I don’t know. Maybe future chapters will convince me that Barristan Selmy is truly the Bold, but at this point, to me, he isn't very honorable and the first major chink in the Kingsguard's armor after Robert’s Rebellion.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'm glad I'm following this thread :D I'll be first here when we discuss Arthur Dayne and Hightower (we are, right? RIGHT?)

Anyway, Barristan...

Barristan is a complex character and it's too simple to say that he was blind to Aerys' madness and served Joffrey and Robert despite the rebellion. As I see it, the Kingsguard is like being a priest, either the priest of some chapel or a high priest like a Cardinal. You don't serve a Pope, you serve the Church. I know many priests don't actually like Francisco's attitude and preferred JPII's best because he wasn't as severe as Francisco and Benedict. But they have to obey his orders anyway because they have swore obedience (yes, even their vows are similar: celibacy, poverty, obedience, IICR).

We often forget the religious nature of the knight's vows but they are present and they are important. Westeros is a very religious society and a knight not only swears to his King, but to the Gods that he will serve the King, whoever the King is. That's why, imo, Barristan' dismissal is something he can't so easily accept. What's for a White Sword that can't protect his King when he as swore to the Gods that the only think he'll ever do is protect him?

The mention of Dayne, Hightower and Martell will repeat again in many other chapters, but it starts setting the precedent of them being the last of a lost dynasty, so to speak. Many say that Rhaegar's death represent the death of chivalry and in a way, the death of Aerys' KG does the same: it's the end of a fairy tale (I'd like to talk more about the Kingswood Brotherhood, but I guess we'll have to wait for that) and the death of the Knight in his Shining Armour. Even though the armours of the current KG also shine, they're all stained: they're corrupted, weak and mediocre. And we could say that Barristan actually purifies and clean himself by leaving them.

[DogLover]

And we could say that Barristan actually purifies and clean himself by leaving them.

This to me is so significant and a parallel that can be drawn with another certain member of the Kingsguard who also embarks on a journey of purification. But that is for future discussion.

[HexMachina]

We often forget the religious nature of the knight's vows but they are present and they are important. Westeros is a very religious society and a knight not only swears to his King, but to the Gods that he will serve the King, whoever the King is. That's why, imo, Barristan' dismissal is something he can't so easily accept. What's for a White Sword that can't protect his King when he as swore to the Gods that the only think he'll ever do is protect him?

The mention of Dayne, Hightower and Martell will repeat again in many other chapters, but it starts setting the precedent of them being the last of a lost dynasty, so to speak. Many say that Rhaegar's death represent the death of chivalry and in a way, the death of Aerys' KG does the same: it's the end of a fairy tale (I'd like to talk more about the Kingswood Brotherhood, but I guess we'll have to wait for that) and the death of the Knight in his Shining Armour. Even though the armours of the current KG also shine, they're all stained: they're corrupted, weak and mediocre. And we could say that Barristan actually purifies and clean himself by leaving them.

I agree about the religious part of the vows. We will see this when we look at Barristan's chapters in Meereen - he is not a pious man, but he does take comfort in religion with his carving of the Warrior.

Regarding Dayne, Hightower and Martell: the Kingsguard bond was much stronger in their time, and Barristan seems to truly think of these men as his brothers. I don't want to go into this too much, as it will be brought up in future chapters, but they kept each others secrets, had bonds with each other, and all seemed much more knightly than the current Kingsguard do. There is clearly no kinship in the current Kingsguard, and from various other chapters we know that Meryn Trant and Boros Blount are the Queen's creatures, and Mandon Moore is (imo) Littlefinger's man. The Kingsguard as it stands has become just another corrupt institution that is used by the players of the Game.

[Mladen]

I don't know why this thread started so late in terms of chapters, especially since we see Barristan interacting with both Sansa and Ned long before Sansa V, AGoT. There are a lot of things that can be found out in those chapters, and I would imagine that a reread thread would actually start from a beginning. My recommendation for the team is to reconsider some things and deal with that. Especially when you have fully fleshed out character like Jaime thrown in the same group with far less important characters of whom some don't even have a POV. I believe there has to be a Jaime reread, but not sure about putting it with the rest of the knights. It may be problematic for the future when these differences starts to matter.

As DogLove, I also have conflicted thoughts about Barristan. Mine, however are of different matter. I generally don't blame Barristan for what has happened in the events pre-Wo5K. Simply, we have to remember that what Ned and Stannis knew weren't public knowledge and that there had to be a lot of confusion wrt who is right and who is wrong when it came to opposing sides. This chapter, depicted from the angle of a girl who is compassionate and kind, shows the cruelty and shallowness of court life. The dismissal of Barristan, which parallels Cressen's torments in prologue of ACOK, where Davos is the only one who honors the old Maester, doesn't just feel wrong, it brings sense of sadness. Barristan the Bold, the man who has been hailed by all as one of the greatest knights of all times, is being humiliated in such fashion that emotions pouring from 12 year-old child are the only correct one to feel. Alas, what has happened during Aerys' reign is something that needs to be debated.

If we take back a step, we will remember how Sansa in her first POV chapter recognized and named Barristan. We see Ned's interaction with Barristan which are filled with mutual respect and appreciation. We should remember that Barristan was the only one who stood entire night over the corpse of Ser Hugh. We can recollect Ned's thoughts about coming to Barristan with information he got, or what he felt about Robert's death. There is too many things that we can say about Barristan that preceded his release. Especially in terms what the KG truly means (perhaps that is the main reason for my confusion why this reread started from quite late point).

All and all, nice analysis, HelenaAndTheMachine, but this simply isn't where the Kingsguard Reread should start.

[DogLover]

As DogLove, I also have conflicted thoughts about Barristan. Mine, however are of different matter. I generally don't blame Barristan for what has happened in the events pre-Wo5K. Simply, we have to remember that what Ned and Stannis knew weren't public knowledge and that there had to be a lot of confusion wrt who is right and who is wrong when it came to opposing sides. This chapter, depicted from the angle of a girl who is compassionate and kind, shows the cruelty and shallowness of court life. The dismissal of Barristan, which parallels Cressen's torments in prologue of ACOK, where Davos is the only one who honors the old Maester, doesn't just feel wrong, it brings sense of sadness. Barristan the Bold, the man who has been hailed by all as one of the greatest knights of all times, is being humiliated in such fashion that emotions pouring from 12 year-old child are the only correct one to feel. Alas, what has happened during Aerys' reign is something that needs to be debated.

If we take back a step, we will remember how Sansa in her first POV chapter recognized and named Barristan. We see Ned's interaction with Barristan which are filled with mutual respect and appreciation. We should remember that Barristan was the only one who stood entire night over the corpse of Ser Hugh. We can recollect Ned's thoughts about coming to Barristan with information he got, or what he felt about Robert's death. There is too many things that we can say about Barristan that preceded his release. Especially in terms what the KG truly means (perhaps that is the main reason for my confusion why this reread started from quite late point).

I edited my post a bit since I wrote that way too late after too much wine. I do think we can hold Barristan's lack of action when Cersei has Ned arrested and household killed against him. Barristan knows that Ned is an honorable man (he was there when Ned was the only person brave enough to challenge Robert's orders to kill Dany). And Robert's will declared Ned the protector of the realm, so Barristan should have followed Ned's orders, not Joffrey's. And while I find Barristan a sympathetic character in this chapter and feel his humilation and indignation, I do think he struggles with hard decisions and tends to take the path of least resistance. While he certainly is a cut above the other members of the Kingsguard, like all of GRRM's characters, he's flawed.

[Danelle]

@HelenaAndTheMachine I would like to thank you for that analysis. It was quite insightful.

Cersei and the Small Council give reasons for his dismissal – the death of Robert has shown he is no longer capable of fulfilling his duties. It is obvious to the reader however, that the reasons they give are very thin; in truth they want a Kingsuard they know they can manipulate, and by dismissing Barristan somebody also takes the fall for Robert’s death.

This is probably one of the biggest moments of irony in the books. They dismiss Barristan, yet they name Jaime as LC.

Still, his dismissal always bothered me. Barristan could voice his opinion and object, but he was not eager to play the game. Sometimes he was heard, sometimes he wasn’t. He was heard when he spoke against Robert’s plans to assassinate Dany, yet he wasn’t heard when he advised that Jaime should take the black, after RR. Wasn’t Varys the one who came up with the ingenious idea of Barristan’s dismissal? Since Tywin, Tyrion and Jaime are absent, and only Cersei is there, I believe that this also shows her lack of good judgment.

Admitting this in front of Cersei and a Court of Lannister toadies doesn’t strike me as the smartest course of action…

For me, it was like an awakening. Barristan pretended to tolerate undesirable situations and people, but once they turned against him, he revealed his true feelings about them. Wise? No. Bold? Yes. Perhaps he was looking forward for a moment like that to come. Also, I can’t help thinking that this was a political declaration as well. By addressing Jaime as the kingslayer, Barristan sort of declares war to the Lannisters and refuses to accept their peace.

Even in his anger, Barristan doesn’t take up arms against Joffrey. I think that while he would gladly serve Joffrey’s foes, he would never himself harm someone he has sworn to protect. He may agree with those he next serves fighting Joffrey, but I don’t believe he himself would ever harm Joff.

I am not so sure about that. He has been humiliated and no one stood up for him. He is no longer a KG and he can do and say what he wants but if he hadn’t been dismissed, would be tolerate Joffrey, who has already shown signs of depravity?

The chapter also has the Hound being named to the Kingsguard. The Hound has never taken his knightly vows, due to his brother and his attitude in general towards knights. He agrees to become a Kingsguard, stating:

Probably my favourite moment in the chapter. At this point I should note that part of the reason why this chapter is so strong, is due to the fact that it is a Sansa POV chapter. If the scene was told by the POV of Ned or Tyrion or Cat, I don’t think that the impact would be as powerful. In a previous Sansa chapter, Sandor had confessed to her the story behind his burned face, and Sansa’s concluded that Gregor was no true knight.

The Decay of the KG

This was the chapter where I first started to realize that the KG is in decay just as much as the NW is. When the knights who are sworn to be brothers start laughing at the hummilitation of one of their own, you just have to start questioning them.

I think that there are strong parallels, and you are right. Even though that being a KG knight is more prestigious, and they don’t encounter the problems that the NW brothers face, such as lack of money or of men who can actually fight, the KG as an institution is no longer glorious, but of course, this means that we have to turn back to the man who started it all, Ser Jaime Lannister. If a man as bad as Kingslayer can be allowed to remain in the KG, this means that other crimes and indecent behaviors can be forgiven as well.

While I reread the chapter, and I reached to the point when Cersei questions Barristan, I was reminded of something similar I had read in the Rogue Prince.

"Whose death, Ser Barristan?" The queen's voice was soft as silk, but her words carried the whole length of the hall. "Yours, or your king's?

I don't really know of this is the right place to post it, but I believe that it is a leitmotif that defines the KG. Since it contains info from the novella, it is in spoilers. If you don't think that it is relevant to the re-read, please ignore it.

Now in regards to the whole Kingsguard situation, I believe that the status of the KG knights is unique in westerosi society and it stands as a proof of a good monarch.

The novella takes place before the Dance, and at some point, Princess Rhaenyra, who is also heiress to the throne, is enchanted by Ser Criston Cole, a KG knight. Queen Alicent, her stepmother wonders

““Ser Criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from Ser Criston?””

Cersei said something similar to Barristan, when she declares that he is unworthy, not only from protecting the king, but himself as well.

This quote in particular reminded me of Alan Moore’ novel the Watchmen, and the phrase, "Who watches the watchmen?", which is a rough translation of Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?, which actually means "Who will guard the guards themselves?" The phrase originated in Juvenal’s Satires, but it has been associated with Socrates’ concerns in regards to the role of guardians in the society.

In the Republic, there is the class of the guardians, who have the duty of ruling the city. In order for the guardians to be protected from themselves, a noble lie must be told. The noble lie is that into the souls of men, elements can be found, that determine their status in society. Gold refers to the guardians, silver to the auxiliaries and iron for craftsmen. The point is that if people actually believe that lie, they would care more about their society.
Given GRRM’s particular choice of words, and the great role of the KG knights in the books, the impact of their actions and choices, I wonder if the glory, honour, valour that tend to be associated with the KG knights, is just another another noble lie.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I agree about the religious part of the vows. We will see this when we look at Barristan's chapters in Meereen - he is not a pious man, but he does take comfort in religion with his carving of the Warrior.

Regarding Dayne, Hightower and Martell: the Kingsguard bond was much stronger in their time, and Barristan seems to truly think of these men as his brothers. I don't want to go into this too much, as it will be brought up in future chapters, but they kept each others secrets, had bonds with each other, and all seemed much more knightly than the current Kingsguard do. There is clearly no kinship in the current Kingsguard, and from various other chapters we know that Meryn Trant and Boros Blount are the Queen's creatures, and Mandon Moore is (imo) Littlefinger's man. The Kingsguard as it stands has become just another corrupt institution that is used by the players of the Game.

The Faith of the Seven and knighthood really perplexes me.

In the world of Ice and Fire, a knight, by definition, is someone who makes a vow to the High Septon with the seven oils:

The last name caught Daenerys. "A knight?"

"No less." Illyrio smiled through his beard. "Anointed with the seven oils by the High Septon himself." (Daenerys II, AGoT)

"The septons preach about the seven hells. What do they know? Only a man who's been burned knows what hell is truly like."

"My father told everyone my bedding had caught fire, and our maester gave me ointments. Ointments! Gregor got his ointments too. Four years later, they anointed him with the seven oils and he recited his knightly vows and Rhaegar Targaryen tapped him on the shoulder and said, 'Arise, Ser Gregor.' " (Sansa II, AGoT)

"To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights... but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man's worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before." (Bran VI, AGoT)

Yet, clearly people like Luwin and the Hound think the practice is completely empty.

Meanwhile, Barristan and even Blount seem to think being a knight is a really important thing despite the fact that neither seems very religious.

"The Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard have always been knights," Ser Boros said firmly. (Sansa V, AGoT)

I wonder if knightly vows are similar to marriage vows in modern secular society. People often get married in a church even if they aren't religious, they often hold a marriage vow sacred anyway. These knights, some religious and some not, still hold their vows sacred.

[Mal Malenkirk]

For the first time reader, this scene illustrates the fall from grace of the King's guard. It's clear. We're told Barristan is one of the greatest knight who ever lived and his replaced by the Hound while the other king's guard stand there and laugh. It's pretty straightforward.

Yet much later we see Jaime remembering how Aerys abused cruelly his wife and when he pointed out they were sworn to portect her too, he was told that they were not sworn to protect her from him. With all we know of the past, the chapter we are discussing takes a different colour. It now occurs to me that the shame of the King's guard actually started back in the days of Dayne, Hightower, Darry and Whent. It started in the era of all these glorious brothers that Selmy invokes with pride not even realizing the part they played in the fall. They just didn't see it because they adhered to their vows, and that should make everything all right, no? But how much honor can an institution accrue when it serves dishonorables lieges? As a first time reader, I saw this as Barristan's humiliation, now I see it as his chance at redemption. He'd have been damned if Cersei hadn't done him the great favour of liberating him from his vows. He'd have obeyed all the way into villainy. Anyone doubt he would have grudgingly but dutifully hit Sansa if commanded point blank by the king to do it?

Oh, and it's ironic that Barristan expresses so much disdain toward Jaime. For a first time reader it seems appropriate but now we know from his POVs that, had he been present, Jaime would have been one of the few who wouldn't have been amused by Barristan's dismissal.

EDIT: Also, this scene tells me that Barristan is a better follower than leader. The King's guard is at a low point? Well, it does happen under his watch as lord commander so he's not entirely blameless about it... Generating enough political capital to have a say in who gets chosen is part of the job, so is maintaining the standards of excellence of the men under his command. Boros Blount does NOT look good on Barristan.

EDIT2: Barristan comes out extremely sympthathetic and outright heroic in this chapter and it has to be part of the author's intent. Nothing else I can think of in the entire serie does as mcuh to shape the readers perception of him. It starts with this and everything else is just fine tuning. Personally, I still think of him as a good man and a fine knight in the context of Westeros in spite of his choice to adhere to his vow all through Aerys' madness.

[ArabellaVidal]

Mal Malenkirk@

I don't know if your assessment of Jaime would be entirely accurate at that point in time. The Jaime who slowly emerges in ASOS is a different creature. But yes, I do agree that as LC Selmy has much to answer for if Boris and Mandon were allowed in. My impression now is someone who is a warrior not a tactician or leader. Jaime takes on that role far more favourably upon his return.

Mladen@

I also think the re-read should begin earlier. Possibly with Jaime's arrival at Winterfell, or even with Barristan's introduction in Sansa I.

[HexMachina]

Hi there everyone,

Apologies for the delay, I was waiting for Sapphireghost but I assume they are busy with other stuff right now. We'll therefore come back to thosetwo chapters at a later date. In order to move the thread along, Booknerd2 is going to post their analysis of Sansa III, a Clash of Kings. :) Thank you Booknerd

[Booknerd2]

A Pre-ramble: King’s Guard Yearbook

Some of the biggest themes in ASOIAF across the series regarding the King’s Guard and vows is: What is objective? What is subjective?

It reoccurs constantly throughout the series and even in the novellas connected to the series. There have been events, decisions, choices, actions we have read about regarding recent KG members; those who have died, and those from even further in the past during times predating book 1. Most of our information covers the reign of Aerys, the Mad King, Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, and even upstart Renly and his guard, Brienne of Tarth.

There have even been debates regarding the roles of banners for the great Houses. They swear fealty, loyalty, promises, etc. We have seen everything from amazing feats of loyalty, right actions, poor choices, and catastrophic disasters of treachery. But that is for another time. And the opinions are vast among the readership.

The KG takes vows and swears to uphold them. Well, that is what they are supposed to do. Characters have some very clear-cut ideas on how they should be followed and others differ. Some do, some don’t. Some have, some have not. And it has been open to interpretation by characters that agree or disagree and even us the readers have a pov.

In the future, I will be tackling a big undertaking; Eddard X. Which is the ultimate ( I have to be nuts for signing up, and I know it for that one. LOL!) It is probably the biggest question and one of many keys to the series. In all honesty, I signed up for 5 and looked at the various members of KG and chapters, and I agree that Eddard X, as Helena suggested, should be last. The rest need to come first. I believe that the info we receive regarding all KG members past and present are set up to remind us of the ultimate vow and choice of the entire series: for what went down at the TOJ, namely that the three were not with their King guarding him. Many people comment on the model KG, Arthur, and how he did things, how he would do things, how honorable he was, etc. People compare other KG members to him. Yet….the TOJ. I am warning ahead of time. I just started Eddard X and barely dented it and I have like 10 pages typed. It is going to be long. I am overlooking nothing and throwing all possibilities on the table, with Dayne, Whent, and Hightower. And there is so much, I am sure I will still not be able to cover all angles and possibilities.

And I am not trying to. That is what many threads that cover this topic are for, like R&L=J, where people actually know what they’re talking about and are heavily invested in research. Meaning: They know their stuff. Gendry, Arya, some others; I’m good to go, and write more funny pieces on Rethinking Romance.

Comparisons are constantly made to the model KG, Arthur Dayne, even Hightower who was LC at the time, and Whent who was prestigious too, and how they would act, how they would be, and just how they justified that whole scenario. Jaime even does it. Selmy does it too. So does Ned. So I think it is good to look at other cases before the big question. Their decision helped affect the very outcome of the war. They tell Ned the very same in essence. The fall of a dynasty…. things would have been different if we were there. But before we go there…

There was have been many threads on Westeros that appealed to the posters to “Choose Your King’s Guard and Why?” or “Who would your 7 be?” and to give reasons/ evidence. I’ve read them. I don’t think I posted. I couldn’t pick. Sure I thought about it, sure I added and subtracted people. Had some ties. Moved it around in my mind. I even tried to rate who I thought I would want and why, and compare them to others, and do mental lists. But not all lists were the same. Posters had a wide variety of who their 7 would be for different reasons. Some reasons seen as a win or a positive were not viewed that way by other posters.

It is no different for the characters…

But for now…Sansa III – Part 1. It just worked out that I tackled this in two parts. I wanted to focus more on why Sandor said that to Sansa and where I believe “Give him what he wants,” is coming from. The actual beating and Boros and Trant will be in part 2.

So in this chapter we have a KG member who refuses vows of any kind and rolls with his own code. No KG vows or knightly vows. And we have KG who are knights that should be held accountable for vows and they seem to run by their own code too. Or maybe someone else’s for this one. The initials are CLB.

Sansa III – Part 1

Sansa III opens with the Hound giving Sansa very astute advice. For her. Out of concern. He is advising her to play or pay. And he doesn’t want her to pay. He is urging and encouraging her to play.

And he knows what it is like to have your back to a wall, with no way out. Just like Sansa is stuck in her rooms and barely leaves the Red Keep at this point. Imagine his home before he left it. Constantly living in fear that your brother would do you in. Why wouldn’t he? The sister was dead and under mysterious circumstances, it would happen to the father, but it would be called as Robert’s was, a “Hunting Accident.” But imagine even before he left home after his father died: the stress, the strain, keeping one eye open in case something happened again. A migraine, you look at him funny? He was not as big or strong that young as he was much later after he left and with training surely. A toy or another object gets really misplaced this time by a servant or somebody and you get blamed…again.

He can advise her. He knows a lot about situations like these. He probably did the same until he was old enough to leave. Do you believe he argued at all or even interacted with his brother much after The Burn. I don’t. Probably little interaction, and maybe even before the incident too, because Sandor knew if he was capable of something like that, and if his father apparently was willing, even if out of fear of his heir to lie about it, I doubt he would want much interaction afterwards. And the key to this is to find out the odd circumstances of his sister. And what do we know? Maybe the father even let it go to protect his younger son Sandor in the future. We just don’t have enough information.

Give him what he wants. Crap. Maybe this was Mr. Clegane’s mantra when dealing with young Gregor. If so, gah….poor Sandor!

I have no idea how Sandor stayed out of his way or how he survived that house with Gregor in it before he left. I am sure Gregor still might have bothered him. I am guessing quarters very, very separate from each other. Perhaps Dad worked that out?

He injured Sandor, badly. But imagine going about the house knowing that he won’t just maim. He will kill too. The sister? And also get away with that as well. And it continues with the father. And apparently later in life with two wives.

And you can be knighted for it. And you can be heir and inherit an estate and all that entails and get away with it. Free and clear.

All of it defines Sandor’s whole life. He is offered knighthood. He is offered the KG, an honor his brother will never receive, but… (Robert Strong is a different situation. We don’t know, if you adhere to this theory, like many do, myself included, but, er, how much Gregor mind and body is, er, there.) And Sandor just doesn’t want it. He is actually vehemently opposed. But then technically and debatable, Gregor somewhat gets made a KG.

So Sandor is not knighted. He is offered and he refuses. He becomes personal bodyguard to Prince and later King Joffrey. His dog. He even wishes along with his mother for Sandor to join the KG and most assume that you would have to be a knight. That is the way it was always done.

Sandor knows that. Sandor doesn’t care. He refuses. Has anyone refused before too, period? Not bloodly likely. But if it did happen I am sure the vets of the series know who and the time period. Just fill me in and comment.

He is allowed to do so. Little to no fuss is made.

Well, Cersei and Joff are like that. They tend do what they want no matter what, and vows and tradition are valued to them only if it is a means to an end for them and they get something out of it. They also lend a helping hand to the breakdown of the KG.

They let it go.

So Sandor’s message to Sansa is to survive. Survive. Damn it ,girl, just survive! And like Grandma Fontaine told Scarlett O’Hara…which I am so excited that GRRM made a Scarlett reference at Comic Con. (A little aside: I am not surprised. I posted a long time ago that when I first read Olenna Tyrell, I thought, wait a minute…Grandma Fontaine? Wonder if she was an influence? And if so I’m excited, and think it’s great! I love both literary characters.

So Sandor is giving Sansa advice like Grandma gave to Scarlett, whether she wanted to hear it or not. Survive and then you can kick your enemies in their teeth and lord it over anyone that tried to hurt you or stop you for moving ahead. In time….just not now. Be patient. Be consistent. And above all, Sansa, be vigilant.

One day at a time. It is what he did and had to do with very little choices. Bend like wheat or die, Scarlett. Or you can break in half like Ashley Wilkes. And nobody will care either way. You have a choice to make. Grandma Fontaine would be proud. Her background is really sad, almost as bad as a Stark actually. Her entire family is killed when she is young and she has to survive on her own.

And forget just the past. Sandor is doing it now. He can tell Sansa from present experience. He is doing a lot of things he doesn’t want to do for Cersei and Joff. He is back there again. Back where he started and he is not happy about it either. But he is not going to express all of this to her. He will open up more, and even more so when he comes further to terms with it. And by that time he is telling things in snippets to the little sister Arya, until he blows the last time they meet, and a lot comes spilling out that he had struggled to contain or thwart from bubbling to the surface. He just didn’t want to face all of it. And I think he realized it more when he met Sansa. So he is sort of struggling again with some of the same issues as her, but he is not in the pressure cooker of scrutiny that she is in with Joffrey and Cersei breathing down her neck, threatening her, and keeping constant tabs. You know, like maybe Gregor did to him in his youth?

He got just as much value from her as she did from him.

Okay, part 2 with the KG coming soon...

[Queen Alienor]

Nice start, booknerd2.

I really think the readers reaction to Sandor is very interesting here. That's not to say bookerd2 isn't absolutely right in the post above, or that Sandor is a bad guy (I actually really like him) but think about: What does he actually do? Is he the typical fairy tale knight that swoops in and saves the girl? Is he the man who steps in and stops them from beating Sansa? No, he is not. He stands by watching it. He brings her to Joffrey, knowing what will happen. He only disobeys the king when it is clear that the power balance in the room has shifted, when Tyrion enters and everybody sooner or later realizes that he has more power.

Yet, in this chapter, we '(at least I) view Sandor extremly positive. That has to do with a few factors. For one, he is honest with Sansa. He tells her that and why she is in trouble, what, in the typical fairy tale, would mean nothing, but in this world in that city means the world to both Sansa and the reader. She isn't going blind. That is way more than we've learned to expect from any of the other players in the capital, save for maybe Tyrion. It also reinforces a theme with Sandor: He will not lie. He is willing to do certain things that are morally repulsive, but he will not lie, at least not to Sansa. Also interestingly, Joffrey doesn't even ask him to beat her. Maybe he knows that would be going to far? Sandors second positive action in this chapter is to say "Enough" after a while of Ser Boros beating Sansa. It's nothing, when you look at it. Joffrey pretty much ignores it, Sansa notes it but doesn't think about it. It's not pulling out his sword and running Ser Boros through. But it is doing something, which is more than anyone expect Dontos is doing (And how sad is it just how grateful Sansa is for the utter humilitation of being beaten with a fruit by a fool to the laughter of the court?!). It's also speaking up to a cruel and mad king without holding any power on his own, so he is in a different situation from Tyrion, who actually wields quite a huge power. The third thing he does is giving his cloak to Sansa. As said above, he only does that after Tyrion said so, and Tyrion makes it very clear that he is the most powerful in that room. Yet, there is no hesistation to rip of that cloak that gives Sandor his position. The cloak is the symbol of the KG, wrapping somebody in one's cloak is basically a symbol of giving that someone your protection. That Sansa is wrapped in the cloak of the very organisation that threatens her most is irony at it's finest.

So I guess my point is that compared to what the KG's reputation is, to what the KG itself should be, Sandor stands out as not fitting and definitively not the best guy. Compared to what the KG actually is, however, he looks damn good.

PS: booknerd2, when will you post part 2?

[e22ddie46]

I also feel that this has whole issue of conflicting vows is ultimately what is driving Jamie to become "good" and probably has been for his whole life. They swear so many vows that it reminds me of that discussion about promising to not be mad in Pulp Fiction. Unless you basically do what Ned does, and go hide out in the North, there will be a situation that forces you to choose between the right thing and obeying your vows. Now I agree that Moore and Blount clearly do the wrong thing but as Jamie mentions in FfC, the Kingsguard exists to serve the king, it presumably trumps their original vows as knights and represents an ideal dream of life that couldn't exist in the real world.