Jaime Lannister's honor

[The Wolves]

Jaime has seen Kings who would burn hundreds of thousands to the ground rather than lose, he has seen drunken morons send the realm into crushing debt and rejoice in the deaths of children, and he has seen every kind of oath, honour or value betrayed and rendered meaningless countless times. War was truth long before Joff was born, and will be true long after he's dead, and as far as he knows men of true birth have been almost entirely responsible for all the evil he's seen.

Do you really think he thinks the blood behind Robert's heirs means much?

Do you? Do you think LF or Varys is sitting on the sidelines admiring the view of a placid kingdom if Joff is really Robert's kid? Do you think Dany's dragons would be less powerful?

Do you really think it made much difference?

But more to the point, would you if you'd lived Jaime's life?

I don't get your first quote but Jaime is one of the reason for all the evil that the seven kingdoms have seen and suffered.

He is still using the name Baratheon on the dynasty that he is defending so he must think the blood of Robert's heirs means something so his bastards can keep the throne.

Jaime still gave Littlefinger and Varys a valid reason to start a war in many of Westeros' yes by helping to place his bastards on the throne. I doubt the realm would be on the point of near destruction from a ice zombie army and suffering from hunger/ poverty and homelessness.

And yeah it matters

And no I wouldn't be the fuck up/disappointment/ wasted space that Jaime turned out to be.

[BastardlyRock]

And no I wouldn't be the fuck up/disappointment/ wasted space that Jaime turned out to be.

Much anger I sense in this one. :leaving:

[dread pirate davos]

I don't think jaime' s a good person. But I I do think he's far from the monster some people make him out to be. In fact I'd say he's the greyest character in the series. I mean yeah he does some horrible shot but it's rarely if ever just for cruelty or sadism's sake. He pushed Bran for Cersie. Whether or not he shouldn't be.sleeping with the queen doesn't matter too much to me. Since bran saw him should he have just shrugged "okay, you caught us, kill me and the love of my life". Maybe. But it's understandable that he didn't. Yeah he killed Jory, it was wrong. But he did it for Tyrion, however stupid his plan was. Jaime is for me defined by his quote "the things I do for love". I can't think of one example where he does something abhorrent just for his own sake.

[MotherMerciless]

I would say in regards to Gregor that most people who have terrible, painful headaches do not go on to become murderers or rapists. There are also plenty of crimes which Gregor is involved with, such as giving his victims over to his men, which have no relationship to his disorder at all. I think people just want there to be an easy explanation for people's behaviour when thing are always complicated.

Even with things like psychopathy only a minority of psychopaths become murderers and they know right from wrong (a psychopath would not kill someone in front of a policeman as a delusional person might), it is just easier for them to be completely un-sympathetic to other people.

I wonder if a rapist character had gone through Jaime's redemption arc whether people would be so quick to buy it. People seem to think you can get over being a cold blooded killer but not being sexually violent. I would say that early Jaime gets a power/superiority buzz from killing people who he views as inferior to him and his main redemption is not the good things he has, sort of, done but making himself go cold turkey on those risk+feeling powerful hits.

Gregor might have a personality disorder, and this disorder coupled to the fact that he is actually incentivated to commit many of these acts and the fact that he is most likely able to get away with anything might just make the disorder worse, or "more free to manifest itself". I am no shrink, but I'm just wondering if this is the case, or could be a factor that would influence the acts of a psycopath.

As to the rapist having the same arch as Jaime, I agree, to me at least it IS worse to have a rapist be forgiven. That is actually what annoyed me a lot in Jaime's and Cersei's scene at the sept in the series. I want to accept he is becoming a better person, and that scene pissed me off(I'm not mentioning this to rekindle the topic of whether this happened or not).

As to why a rapist to me is tougher to forgive than a killer, other than being a woman and having been brought up in fear of it ever happening to me, even in a safe country, it's just the act of dominance and humiliation from the stronger aggressor towards the weaker one that hits me in the gut. What he did to Bran places him in the place of strength, but it is not so much an act of dominance and humilliation, but an act of utter disrespect/disregard, dishonor and cowardness.

As this is a story, and fictional, and we see things though his eyes, Martin does an excellent job at making us wonder if a horrible person like Jaime could ever be good again. He dangles good deeds like saving the people of KL, saving Brienne from a bear, from rape, saving his brother, breaking ties with his sister, etc, and I have to say I want to take the bait.

It is all these inner conflicts that arise from reading the books, amongst other things, that really make me love the whole story. Honor or no honor, redemption or no redemption, he's a freaking awesome character and I NEVER expected it.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

He wants to be honorable and do good. This might not mean anything to some, and to others it is a start.

He has done good, and he has done evil.

We don't know if he'll ever fully 'tip the scale' and go fully good or fully evil (or if that even exists), or if he'll stay somewhere in between. I think the last option will be the one that happens, but hope there will be more good in him that evil in the end.

Well said. I would go further and say he's moved far more toward the honorable space than away from it, since we first met him in the series.

[BastardlyRock]

Regardless, characters like Jaime are what help to make the series such a compelling read. I have little interest in the wholly good (Ned types) and likewise the mindless evil (The Mountain, Ramsay etc.) The fact that we can even debate his "honor" is credit to how intriguing the character is. I know from several interviews GRRM wanted to explore redemption with him, and to my mind he's done just that. Redemption is a very personal thing, to many (many here, in fact!) he'll never be redeemed, or redeemed only in his death defending another character, for others he's in the process. That being said, none of us can say what we would do if we were him, because we aren't, we can speculate, and that's about it. Many say, well I wouldn't end up in a situation where I'm caught with my sister/Queen and have to throw a kid from a window, well that's fine, because that's you. And this was him. Was it his finest moment? Hell no. Do I understand it, and was it GRRM's intention to get us thinking about it? Yes, he stated as such in his Rolling Stone interview.

Jaime began as hands down, my least favorite character in the books. I remember getting to his first POV chapter in aSOS and thinking, wtf? I don't want to read a Jaime chapter, I hate Jaime! and now I love him. I could care less who sits the Iron Throne in the end, for me it's about seeing what befalls my favorite characters (many of which are Starks, mind you, including Bran) - that's what keeps me turning pages.

[LordStoneheart]

Well, I never said he wasn't an interesting character. But honestly, I do like those 'wholly good' characters. They're less frustrating. A good character like Ned the bread and butter of a story, someone you can root for without an inner conflict with yourself.

[BastardlyRock]

Well, I never said he wasn't an interesting character. But honestly, I do like those 'wholly good' characters. They're less frustrating. A good character like Ned the bread and butter of a story, someone you can root for without an inner conflict with yourself.

I can understand that. Ned was my favorite character starting out, and he still holds a place in my heart that not even Jaime can touch. I agree entirely with your assessment here. There's a difference between characters I'm interested in reading about and watching develop, and characters that I would readily defend and want on my side. That being said, I do defend several of Jaime's actions that others despise him for...

[Lord Damian]

^ That I can agree with. (JCRB)

If Jaime truly wants to redeem himself he needs to get Tommen off of that throne he has no right to while not causing any harm to him. Jaime's already screwed up half the continent by putting his bastards on that throne. If he truly wants to become good and reject his father's "feast for crows" he has to accept that he has a large part in prepping that feast and take away the cause.

I agree, get back to Kings Landing and take all Lannister men and issue a statement at the Great Sept, announce that Joff, Tommen and Marcylla are all his kids by Cersei and proclaim Stannis King and promptly leave for the Rock, release all Northern and Riverlands prisoners and get his kid to the Rock and announce he is taking the Black. Also, confessing throwing Bran out the window when he confesses would be good too.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jaime is definitely more interesting that, for example, Ramsay who is "evil because he's evil". Jaime is not evil, he's human and humans are flawed, some more flawed than others. I really don't get why Ramsay gets some love. He's just there to being an evil sadistic bastard (npi) and if he were some rabid dog we'd have the same result.

[Lord Damian]

Jaime is definitely more interesting that, for example, Ramsay who is "evil because he's evil". Jaime is not evil, he's human and humans are flawed, some more flawed than others. I really don't get why Ramsay gets some love. He's just there to being an evil sadistic bastard (npi) and if he were some rabid dog we'd have the same result.

Birds of a feather. I will say no more.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Birds of a feather. I will say no more.

Wait...are you comparing Jaime with Ramsay or are you saying I'm sadistic?

[Lady Flandrensis]

Jaime is a flawed character, and I do agree that Cersei is his main weakness. Apart from her, he develops a sense of honor, as exhibited when he saves Brienne, But put him back in KL with Cersei and he flounders in moral terpitude. However, one can't unknow what one has learned, and Jaime is progressing toward being an honorable man. As in all humans, he likes being/doing what he is/does. When he no longer likes what he is/does, he changes.

[Lord Damian]

Wait...are you comparing Jaime with Ramsay or are you saying I'm sadistic?

No, no, no, sorry, I am just saying some of the people out there who love Ramsay for the evil he does, and there are many of them, may in fact have some darkness in their character. I do not want to be suspended as a poster for stating that but we do have a multitude of posters so sometimes birds of a feather stick together. I appreciate his character for what it gives the story but I had his character for the evil he does.

[Starkfaithful85]

I think claiming that jaime has no honor because tommen is sitting on the throne is ridiculous...what should he do declare that tommen is a bastard and watch everyone related to him slaughtered? In my opinion Jaime will prove himself honorable/dishonable based on his support of the challengers to the throne (Aegon, dany, or even supporting jon)

[LordStoneheart]

I think claiming that jaime has no honor because tommen is sitting on the throne is ridiculous...what should he do declare that tommen is a bastard and watch everyone related to him slaughtered? In my opinion Jaime will prove himself honorable/dishonable based on his support of the challengers to the throne (Aegon, dany, or even supporting jon)

Yes, he should definitely reveal the truth about Tommen, something he's shown a willingness to do in the past. But he should get Tommen to safety. That's not out of the realm of possibility.

[LordParas]

"I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor " -Jaime Lannister in ASOS-

obviously Jaime has no honor, case closed.

[HairGrowsBack]

Huh, your point being?

[Ingelheim]

Well, I never said he wasn't an interesting character. But honestly, I do like those 'wholly good' characters. They're less frustrating. A good character like Ned the bread and butter of a story, someone you can root for without an inner conflict with yourself.

I understand what you are saying, but I just find those moral conflicted characters far more interesting than the wholly good ones, unless these are pretty well written (as Ned was).

[Wild _Rover]

Yes, he should definitely reveal the truth about Tommen, something he's shown a willingness to do in the past. But he should get Tommen to safety. That's not out of the realm of possibility.

Completely agree I had this same argument with someone a while ago.

Jaime has changed and continues to change for the better. On the other hand, lets get real. He's LC of the Kingsgaurd with the King being his bastard son born of incest. So until he comes clean about that and takes the black the only honor he could possibly have is his horse.