joluoto2 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 The Iron Islanders seem to want independence but lack the resources IMHO. So in order to attempt they Reave. IMHO aleways thought they should try to establish strong trade routes and seek out other lands. If they focused more on trade I feel they would have been more successfull. They have nothing to trade but iron. And they are trading iron, and it isn't getting them anywhere. There is nothing that can sustain human life on the Iron Islands anymore. Pillage and conquest worked when Westeros was split in several kingdoms and petty kingdoms. It won't work against a United Westeros. The Iron Islands can work as a mining colony, but not a as a sustainable society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foibles Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 They have nothing to trade but iron. And they are trading iron, and it isn't getting them anywhere. There is nothing that can sustain human life on the Iron Islands anymore. Pillage and conquest worked when Westeros was split in several kingdoms and petty kingdoms. It won't work against a United Westeros. The Iron Islands can work as a mining colony, but not a as a sustainable society. They don't need resources to become a trade power, but they do lack location. There's no reason for trade to pass through the Iron Islands. Now if they were between Westeros and Essos... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 The Ironborn could easily have used their considerable skill at seamanship to become a major commercial trading power, which would have been a source of wealth and avoided conflicts with the Iron Throne. How? They are the end of any possible trade route. There is next to nothing on the (north)western coast of Westeros to trade for. Lannisport trades southward, Highgarden, the Arbor, Oldtown, Planky Town, they are all oriented away from the Iron Islands. The only way would be exporting goods only, because as an intermediary trader, they lack location. And they can only export a bit of rather common metals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IRON BANK Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 They have nothing to trade but iron. And they are trading iron, and it isn't getting them anywhere. There is nothing that can sustain human life on the Iron Islands anymore. Pillage and conquest worked when Westeros was split in several kingdoms and petty kingdoms. It won't work against a United Westeros. The Iron Islands can work as a mining colony, but not a as a sustainable society. Thats where the whole seek out other lands aspect comes into play, The Iron islanders, are stuck on stupid their is more than one way to do things and establishing trade and colonizing other areas is the first play. Also Iron can be exploited when sold to those that have none, Arms trading is always a lucrative business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Also Iron can be exploited when sold to those that have none, Arms trading is always a lucrative business. You're arguing against the expressly stated realities of the books, here. As we know from Theon, the Ironborn are trading: "Iron, lead, tin, those are our treasures." Clearly, in the world GRRM created, trading those metals and any products made from them is not a lucrative business. Insisting they are, now that is being stuck on stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You're arguing against the expressly stated realities of the books, here.As we know from Theon, the Ironborn are trading: "Iron, lead, tin, those are our treasures."Clearly, in the world GRRM created, trading those metals and any products made from them is not a lucrative business. Insisting they are, now that is being stuck on stupid.Do you really mean that their culture or raping and raiding is justified because they are poor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talleyrand Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Even the Ironborn. Bloody Iron Born they ruined the Iron Isles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Do you really mean that their culture or raping and raiding is justified because they are poor?It's as justified as the culture of killing because of who your parents are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Do you really mean that their culture or raping and raiding is justified because they are poor? Making war in order to get enough to put food on your kid's table, is a damn sight better reason than for the honor of some lord or other, in my book. Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, only the greenlanders get to call raping and raiding "war", right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 It's as justified as the culture of killing because of who your parents are. Because obviously Tristifer Botley deserves to die. Also, the Reader. Damn dirty Ironborn! o9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Because obviously Tristifer Botley deserves to die. Also, the Reader. Damn dirty Ironborn! o9Yeah, and I'm not just talking about being killed because of who your parents are, but in addition being allowed to kill others because your parents were above theirs on the social scale.The whole thing's fucked up. I'm not sure why some elements get a free pass and others are self-evidently wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Yeah, and I'm not just talking about being killed because of who your parents are, but in addition being allowed to kill others because your parents were above theirs on the social scale.The whole thing's fucked up. I'm not sure why some elements get a free pass and others are self-evidently wrong. "Let's kill the Ironborn while they're young. Had they lived they would have grown up to be Ironborn". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 It's as justified as the culture of killing because of who your parents are.Which occation you are talking about?Making war in order to get enough to put food on your kid's table, is a damn sight better reason than for the honor of some lord or other, in my book.Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot, only the greenlanders get to call raping and raiding "war", right ?Only we have no clue that the Iron Borns were starving. But even if they were starving and needed food what was the use of salt wives and thralls? If they were starving why they were attacking poor villages and people who were starving had economic difficulties too? For me the answer is pretty easy; because they liked to rape and raid and was not about living but simply about enjoying it. Excuse me but when the mainlander were raping and raiding the Iron Born without been attacked first? "Let's kill the Ironborn while they're young. Had they lived they would have grown up to be Ironborn"."Though mayhaps this was a blessing. Had they lived they would have grown up to be Iron Borns" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 "Let's kill the Ironborn while they're young. Had they lived they would have grown up to be Ironborn".Yeah, that's fucked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Yeah, that's fucked up. Ah, but the slavers... oh, the slavers... maybe they were all innocent after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Which occation you are talking about?Any of a kazillion examples in the books. Any time a King or lord kills a lesser being for 'treason' or for not obeying or for not fighting the way he/she is told to. Arya killing that KW bard, or Ned the deserter or w/e.Feudalism is, by definition, extreme inequality maintained by violence and/or threats of violence. That's what it is. Why are we cool with that, and find so many killings done on it's behalf, and the occasional torture or w/e just part of the deal, but the Wildlings or IB raiding is just wrong (they should be killed!) and rape is always wrong (them too!), and my god, passing children born of incest off as royal?!?! Again, wrong/die!This completely arbitrary acceptance of some moral anachronisms with equanimity or even zeal mixes really poorly with abhorrence of other moral anachronisms, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnivil Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Even the Ironborn. Damn Ironborn... They ruined the Iron Islands! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ah, but the slavers... oh, the slavers... maybe they were all innocent after all!Not so much innocent as not deserving of death for not having read 16/17/18/19th century works making the case that slavery is wrong.If we had killed everyone who owned slaves as soon as someone decided slavery was wrong, there would be very few humans walking this earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Two questions in general: 1. How many years did it take for the humanity to reject slavery?2. What makes us think that slavery is rejected at all, even in the most developed countries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damp Hair - The Prophet Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Ironborn thralls are treated significantly differently than Ghiscari slaves. Small difference to some, I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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