Does it make sense to assume that Rhaegar married Lyanna?

[corbon]

Umm when does he say this about Whent and Hightower? He speaks directly about Dayne, but leaves Whent and Hightower out of it. Because they died together you assume Ned is speaking of the other two who died with Dayne?

once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.

Ned puts all of the KG of that time on a pedestal (I doubt he knows about Martell's paramour for example).

He only singled out Dayne when asked who was the very best of them all, a question that requires a singular answer.

[TheStarkInWinterhell]

Whatever he decided about Aegon, this is when he left for Dorne and again, we have no idea what happened there, if he first went for Lyanna, if they meet on her way to Riverrun for Brandon's wedding or if she simply tried to escaped and took south. Whatever happened there, looks like Rhaegar had a different kind of plans before he and Lyanna get to the Tower.

Where does it say he went to Dorne after Aegon was born, but before Lyanna was taken?

The tourney was, apparently, an excuse to reunite and meet important Lords, which was ruined by Varys. There Rhaegar learned Varys was a complication, and he needed to go somewhere really secret. Going Dragonstone or Summerhall were too much obvious places.

The Tower of Joy is close to Starfall. It's not even a known place, it was named like that by Rhaegar, after he spent time there with Lyanna. For what we know, it was an abandoned place Arthur Dayne knew and suggested. So, he went there with only two men he trusted: Arthur and Whent (Whent's brother organised the Tourney of Harrenhall, so I would say that Whent knew of Rhaegar's plans since the beginning).

Why take Lyanna your wife who you just started a war for to a place such as that. Dragonstone would hold the advantage. I understand going there to hide from Varys birds so you can plan a coup. But taken your wife and unborn child to a country that had to be threaten into fighting for you makes no sense.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jon Connington was not as close a friend as he wanted to be.

Aysh... whenever the topic of Jon and Rhaegar's friendship appears, it's quickly assumed that just because Rhaegar wasn't reciprocal about Jon's feelings, they weren't close friends. Kinda OT, but whatever.

Nor was Robert willing to recall Lord Jon from exile, since he had been among Prince Rhaegar's closest friends.

Those are Martin's words, not mine.

I suppose the reason Jon wasn't aware of the plan had to do mainly with GRRM not wanting to have us knowing what really happened between R and L via Jon. Also, internally, I suppose that Jon was simply busy being the Lord of GR, while Rhaegar didn't want to involve more people than those really needed nor putting anyone -specially a friend- in danger.

[stateofdissipation]

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

“Was there one who was best of all?”

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more.

When you said, that 'he could've thought of them great up until his sister was taken,' is incorrect, he thought of them as great knights years after he left the TOJ, even to that day when he confessed that to Bran.

As a rebel commander, Ned came across 3 Kingsguard back then, he remembered that he fought Arthur, but he considered all 3 were fine knights once, they were a marvel and a shining example to the world There were no other Kingsguard since then that Ned came across that he would consider in high regards. He doesn't think like that anymore, because they are dead now, and the Kingsguard that came after them, he does not think them as highly, not even Barristan, although he respects him.

Nice quote there from AFFC 21 pg332 paperback

Not sure if it is appropriate to extend the once were a shining example to the world... The Neds first response addresses what the is and what it was...

His second response only addresses the finest Knight Ned ever saw.... he notably does not say KG

The 3 KG at the ToJ included

Hightower was with Aerys when Ned's father burned and his brother strangled trying to rescue him....

If you would like to use Ned's endorsement as proof for abstaining from crimes... best leave out all 3 KG at the ToJ

[stateofdissipation]

If they wed Jon would be the Heir to the Iron Throne.

Umm when does he say this about Whent and Hightower? He speaks directly about Dayne, but leaves Whent and Hightower out of it. Because they died together you assume Ned is speaking of the other two who died with Dayne?

If they wed, his grandfather lost the throne before he was born to inherit it....

best to leave that quote about Dayne...

[corbon]

Where does it say he went to Dorne after Aegon was born, but before Lyanna was taken?

Why take Lyanna your wife who you just started a war for to a place such as that. Dragonstone would hold the advantage. I understand going there to hide from Varys birds so you can plan a coup. But taken your wife and unborn child to a country that had to be threaten into fighting for you makes no sense.

He didn't start a war for her. One of the rmajor reasons for diappearing would be to prevent anybody doing anything stupid that might escalate things.Unfortunately Brandon was so far past stupid that it couldn't be forseen and it is Brandon's actions that escalet things to seriousness and Aerys' responses down the line that escalate things to force the rebellion.

And Dorne didn't need to be threatened to go to war. They were already there, with their army, preparing to march off with Rhaegar to the Trident when Aerys gracelessly insinuated a threat because he's a paranoid moron, not because it was needed.

Aysh... whenever the topic of Jon and Rhaegar's friendship appears, it's quickly assumed that just because Rhaegar wasn't reciprocal about Jon's feelings, they weren't close friends. Kinda OT, but whatever.

Those are Martin's words, not mine.

I suppose the reason Jon wasn't aware of the plan had to do mainly with GRRM not wanting to have us knowing what really happened between R and L via Jon. Also, internally, I suppose that Jon was simply busy being the Lord of GR, while Rhaegar didn't want to involve more people than those really needed nor putting anyone -specially a friend- in danger.

I'd be careful about assuming those assumptions if I were you... :P

You think Robert knows who Rhaegar's real friends are?

JonCon was a squire with, then a squire for, Rhaegar. As the wiki (yes, I know, but thats the same impression I got from the books even if I don't have the quotes handy) says:

"He was the most headstrong amongst the gaggle of young lordlings who would gather around Prince Rhaegar competing for his royal favour."

and

"Due to his connections with the royal family, and because he was a noted warrior, Jon was chosen by King Aerys II as Hand of the King after the dismissal of Owen Merryweather. Aerys wanted someone young and vigorous to match the rebelling Robert Baratheon. When word of the king’s choice reached Tywin Lannister he declared that the Handship had come to soon for Connington as he was too young, too bold and too eager for glory."

I believe JonCon was a known associate of Rhaegar's, thought by many to be in his closest circle of friends, but actually a bit more of a necessary hanger-on in Rhaegar's eyes. Its pretty clear from JonCon's inner thoughts that he wasn't in Rhaegar's deepest confidences, and perhaps not even as much friendship as he thought. I'm not sure someone who was 'eager for glory' is like to be a close friend of Rhaegar's, gven his known character.

But then, as I just wrote in another post, Ned and Robert, so who can tell how friendship works really?

[TheStarkInWinterhell]

Jon Connington was not as close a friend as he wanted to be. Agreed

Just because they were his squires (once) does not mean they were his friends. Lonmouth was good friends with Robert (they spent a lot of time at Harrenhal trying to drink each other under the table) and it seems rather unlikely the inteelectual and artistic Rhaegar would be close friends with an ass like that. Mind you, Ned and Robert, so who knows how these things work! The Wiki begs to differ. And Selmy said they remained his close companions. But I will take your word over both.

Why would he? He wasn't part of Rhaegar's circle. Whent and Dayne were the KG close to Rhaegar. Apparently they helped in the 'abduction'. Agreed.

Aerys is the very last person he'd want to know. The only person in Westeros who can stop him getting married to Lyanna is Aerys, who can order him not too, or order him to return Lyanna to her father.

And Aerys would almost certainly be highly disapproving - probably even more so than Rickard in fact (who stands to gain rather a lot). Not only does Aerys already distrust Rhaegar, and have paranoiac (and maybe accurate) visions of a conspiracy to steal power from him (so won't take kindly to Rhaegar marrying a Stark to go with his Martell), but Aerys himself chose Elia Martell as Rhaegar's bride, so Rhaegar taking another bride would be a slap in the face to Aerys. Agreed.

Not to mention that Aerys dutifully married according to his father's orders, forsaking his own love, so would not be pleased to see Rhaegar getting a love match that he was denied... Agreed

Who says he didn't? No one in near Two Decades has said a word? Franklin said it best. "Three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

Note the complete lack of any reaction from Rickard. No latter mention of Lyanna while he was in KL either. Its almost like he knew something already... maybe. We don't know and have had no viewpoint that could have told us.

The fact he got cocked should be proof enough as he would have told Aerys of the mistake and Aerys would have went batshit on Rhaegar.

No one else is required to be informed. Not second-son-nobody Ned, not Jon Arryn, not Hoster Tully, not Mace Tyrell, not Doran Martell and not Tywin Lannister. While its not a nothing, its not actually a very big deal, really. It was only a betrothal, and not part of a whole big agreement (thats why Walder Frey was so angry, because Robb's Marriage was part of a bargain, and Robb took his side then reneged on his payment with an insult for good measure and Walder was losing a big step up socially). Essentially its an in-house matter between Rhaegar and Rickard, and some recompense will probably have to be made to Robert, but only as a sop, not a requirement.

Telling a Lord Paramount he would have to suck it up would go over great with Robert. The honor all the Starks have is lost when Rickard says "To hell Robert I want her to be Queen.

When you are hiding the facts from the King, until the deal is done and can't be gone back on (ie several months of marriage and hopefully a bun in the oven), yes, you don't go telling everyone. Rickard is the only one who needs to be told for responsibility to be completed. Wasn't hiding well seeing as Hightower and later Ned found them with surprising ease.

I rather think its likely they understood how their own culture and social system worked a heck of a lot better than ill-informed commentators from an entirely different culture and social system.

Don't you?

Perhaps (well, definitely!) we just don't have all the data yet? I think anyone from their culture or ours with half a brain could see they were stepping into a pile of shit. Yet they knew how it worked clearly. Just asked Rickard, Brandon, Dayne, Hightower, Whent, Rhaegar, Lyanna, and all the dead. They knew a heck of alot about it too.

[IceFire125]

Nice quote there from AFFC 21 pg332 paperback

Not sure if it is appropriate to extend the once were a shining example to the world... The Neds first response addresses what the is and what it was...

His second response only addresses the finest Knight Ned ever saw.... he notably does not say KG

The 3 KG at the ToJ included

Hightower was with Aerys when Ned's father burned and his brother strangled trying to rescue him....

If you would like to use Ned's endorsement as proof for abstaining from crimes... best leave out all 3 KG at the ToJ

The response was to a user who said Ned was a hero.

I put the puzzles together, to think that not only Arthur was a shining example to the world, but also the other two Kingsguard that was at the tower.

You may think the 3KGs at the TOJ were criminals, but Ned doesn't. You may think that they were breaking their oaths and vow, but to Ned they weren't.

And even the Lord Commander, Ned didn't think negatively of, and since you're a person who questions, why won't you question Ned? why he still keep those Kingsguard at the tower as shining examples?

Why he set up cairns for them to mark as a memorial?

[TheStarkInWinterhell]

Aerys had to Remind Dorne that he had Princess Elia. Which clearly meant Aerys had Doubts about their Loyalty. The only troops they sent were at the Trident.

[stateofdissipation]

once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.

Ned puts all of the KG of that time on a pedestal (I doubt he knows about Martell's paramour for example).

He only singled out Dayne when asked who was the very best of them all, a question that requires a singular answer.

once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.

Ned puts all of once the KG of that time on a pedestal (I doubt he knows about Martell's paramour for example).

The time that was is no more....we dont have a stop date.

He only singled out Dayne when asked who was the very best of them all, a question that requires a singular answer.

He singes AD out as a knight... not as KG

[TheStarkInWinterhell]

Would Ned have thought differently of Jaime if he knew he saved Kings Landing? And why would he not think so high of Selmy? He fought damn near to death on the Trident for his King.

[IceFire125]

He singes AD out as a knight... not as KG

The finest Knight of the Kingsguard.

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms.

Read the question that Bran asked, State, stop cherry picking, you're known as a detractor, that's fine, but don't construe context.

[J. Stargaryen]

The finest Knight of the Kingsguard.

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms.

Read the question that Bran asked, State, stop cherry picking, you're known as a detractor, that's fine, but don't construe context.

Euphemism alert.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I'd be careful about assuming those assumptions if I were you... :P

I'm not assuming. There are at least two more people in books saying the same and also, the author. Besides, Jon being close to Rhaegar doesn't mean Arthur wasn't his best friend. Also, Connington looks like a guy who Rhaegar would like to keep as a personal friend: didn't he dislike Robert for being a drunk and a whoremonger? OT, but I thought it was worthy to clarify :dunno:

Would Ned have thought differently of Jaime if he knew he saved Kings Landing? And why would he not think so high of Selmy? He fought damn near to death on the Trident for his King.

Jaime could have simply kept the King prisoner or got him unconscious. No need to kill him, in the way Ned thuoght there was no need to kill the Targ babies.

[TheStarkInWinterhell]

Even Ned knew Aerys had to die. He hated Jaime for breaking his vows. But would have taken Aerys head at the chopping block or Robert would have bashed Aerys chest in. And even Ned would see it as justice,

[corbon]

If you want to break a quote up, its best to use the bbcode mode (top left square button) and then put and paste the quote brackets to break it up (eg, changing square brackets[] to round brackets (quote name="TheStarkInWinterhell" post="6037740" timestamp="1405660384") and (/quote).
What you did with bolding is fine for one answer, but it gets increasingly messy and difficult as a conversatin goes on.

Just because they were his squires (once) does not mean they were his friends. Lonmouth was good friends with Robert (they spent a lot of time at Harrenhal trying to drink each other under the table) and it seems rather unlikely the inteelectual and artistic Rhaegar would be close friends with an ass like that. Mind you, Ned and Robert, so who knows how these things work! The Wiki begs to differ. And Selmy said they remained his close companions. But I will take your word over both.

Yeah, its a wiki. See my answer about why Lonmouth is probably not really in Rhaegar's true inner cricle. Same also for JonCon and his like, as I outlined above in post #66.

Who says he didn't? No one in near Two Decades has said a word? Franklin said it best. "Three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead."

Well, in this case its three men (Rhaegar, Rickard and probably Rickard's Maester, and all three of them of them are dead!

Not surprising therefore that the secret has been successfully kept, if thats what happened.

Note the complete lack of any reaction from Rickard. No latter mention of Lyanna while he was in KL either. Its almost like he knew something already... maybe. We don't know and have had no viewpoint that could have told us.
The fact he got cocked should be proof enough as he would have told Aerys of the mistake and Aerys would have went batshit on Rhaegar.

Once Brandon committed public treason at the gates of the Red Keep, nothing else matters.

Its also speculative, and not speculation I think well founded or can agree with, that Aerys whould have gone batshit on Rhaegar. More likely he would have defended Rhaegar's right to do as he wanted (he can't defy me, but he's still my heir and better than everyone else).

Note also that Rickard died because Brandon committed treason and was rightfully sentenced to death. Rickard demanded trial by combat, and also demand that he, Rickard, fight in the trial. Aerys cheated the trial by combat, but Rickard and Brandon's places in it were perfectly just and legal and its not until the trial that Aerys first displays his deepest madnesses. Before that he was just a slightly deranged paranoic, not a dangerous madman.

No one else is required to be informed. Not second-son-nobody Ned, not Jon Arryn, not Hoster Tully, not Mace Tyrell, not Doran Martell and not Tywin Lannister. While its not a nothing, its not actually a very big deal, really. It was only a betrothal, and not part of a whole big agreement (thats why Walder Frey was so angry, because Robb's Marriage was part of a bargain, and Robb took his side then reneged on his payment with an insult for good measure and Walder was losing a big step up socially). Essentially its an in-house matter between Rhaegar and Rickard, and some recompense will probably have to be made to Robert, but only as a sop, not a requirement.

Telling a Lord Paramount he would have to suck it up would go over great with Robert. The honor all the Starks have is lost when Rickard says "To hell Robert I want her to be Queen.

Sure it would go down badly with Robert. But he can be recompensed with a shiny new castle, tourney, or some other title or toy. He'll get over it, he hasn't actually lost anything but pride.

And the whole 'abduction' thing is preciely one way the Starks get to keep their honour. That way its all "Rhaegar's fault", and if he turns up 3-6 months later with pregnant wife Lyanna on his arm, no way any nobleman is going to take her back, not even Robert. So at that stage its just spread some largesse, offer Robert and Rickard some compensations, find Robert another pretty girl to wife (ironically probably Cersei), and it should all be good.

When you are hiding the facts from the King, until the deal is done and can't be gone back on (ie several months of marriage and hopefully a bun in the oven), yes, you don't go telling everyone. Rickard is the only one who needs to be told for responsibility to be completed. Wasn't hiding well seeing as Hightower and later Ned found them with surprising ease.

Given they stayed out of Aerys' reach and apparently knowledge for over a year, its seems they did rather well at keeping it a secret. I can't see paranoaic Aerys not wanting to keep close control over a potential hostage like Lyanna if he knoew where she was...

I rather think its likely they understood how their own culture and social system worked a heck of a lot better than ill-informed commentators from an entirely different culture and social system.
Don't you?
Perhaps (well, definitely!) we just don't have all the data yet? I think anyone from their culture or ours with half a brain could see they were stepping into a pile of shit. Yet they knew how it worked clearly. Just asked Rickard, Brandon, Dayne, Hightower, Whent, Rhaegar, Lyanna, and all the dead. They knew a heck of alot about it too.

I'm suggesting that people with half a brain might understand that:

i) they (we) don't have all the facts, and

ii) understand that the characters certainly should understand their own culture better than we do.

Because of both those things, making judgements is both arrogant and stupid.

All those people you mention, they died because Brandon Stark was a moronic ass (as merely the most significant link in the chain where events should have preceded differently). If he didn't do something so utterly stupid and totally without hope for any positive outcome that it couldn't have been predicted, then things should have blown over relatively (not entirely) painlessly.

[stateofdissipation]

The response was to a user who said Ned was a hero.

I put the puzzles together, to think that not only Arthur was a shining example to the world, but also the other two Kingsguard that was at the tower.

You may think the 3KGs at the TOJ were criminals, but Ned doesn't. You may think that they were breaking their oaths and vow, but to Ned they weren't.

And even the Lord Commander, Ned didn't think negatively of, and since you're a person who questions, why won't you question Ned? why he still keep those Kingsguard at the tower as shining examples?

Why he set up cairns for them to mark as a memorial?

you took a quote about the finest knight, Dayne of the KG and applied it to all KG..Fallacy of composition – assuming that something true of part of a whole must also be true of the whole

Arthur Dayne was cited as the finest knight (Not KG) Ned ever saw...

I took no stand on what Ned thought...I took issue with your citing Ned's failure to think ill...Appeal to authority (argumentum ab auctoritate) – where an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it. of the KG at the ToJ was proof they were innocent of a crime Affirmative conclusion from a negative premise (illicit negative) – when a categorical syllogism has a positive conclusion, but at least one negative premise

Ned does not think of anybody much as a criminal.---

And even the Lord Commander, Ned didn't think negatively of, and since you're a person who questions, why won't you question Ned? why he still keep those Kingsguard at the tower as shining examples?--if

Ned did not... you did by the Fallacy of quoting out of context (contextomy) – refers to the selective excerpting of words from their original context in a way that distorts the source's intended meaning.

Why he set up cairns for them to mark as a memorial?

Bodies stink after a couple of days

[corbon]

Aerys had to Remind Dorne that he had Princess Elia. Which clearly meant Aerys had Doubts about their Loyalty. The only troops they sent were at the Trident.

No. :bang:

Prince Lewyn Martell already had the Dornish contingent with Rhaegar's army. They were already there. Aerys didn't have to say anything. They were already there, ready to fight for the Targaryens. But Aerys gracelessly reminded Lewyn of Elia's presence in the Red Keep. That shows that he didn't need to do that (or the adjective gracelessly would not be used), he just did it because he's a paranoid moron who sees treachery everywhere, whether its there or not.

[stateofdissipation]

The finest Knight of the Kingsguard.

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms.

Read the question that Bran asked, State, stop cherry picking, you're known as a detractor, that's fine, but don't construe context.

No the text is on this topic.... i gave the page for paperback...

do you really think we will not look to see if the "kingsguard" you use... was used by Ned?

What have i chosen to include that proves my point and chosen to omit that disproves it. aka cherry picking

I included the text.....

and excluded your additions to it...

INCLUDED

He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”

“Was there one who was best of all?”

“The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more.

AFFC 21 pg332 paperback

Bran's first question about the KG ned answered..

Bran's second question about the finest... Ned aswered

In Bran's second question the antecedant to "one" is Knights... not KG

[TheStarkInWinterhell]

No. :bang:

Prince Lewyn Martell already had the Dornish contingent with Rhaegar's army. They were already there. Aerys didn't have to say anything. They were already there, ready to fight for the Targaryens. But Aerys gracelessly reminded Lewyn of Elia's presence in the Red Keep. That shows that he didn't need to do that (or the adjective gracelessly would not be used), he just did it because he's a paranoid moron who sees treachery everywhere, whether its there or not.

:thumbsdown:

" He floated in heat, in memory. "After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him." Why

am I telling this absurd ugly child? "He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be

crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king

reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand

Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what

they could of griffins' men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to

swallow his pride and summon my father"

"When the word reached court, Aerys packed the queen off to Dragonstone with Prince Viserys. Princess Elia would have gone as well, but he forbade it. Somehow he had gotten it in his head that Prince Lewyn must have betrayed Rhaegar on the

Trident, but he thought he could keep Dome loyal so long as he kept Elia and Aegon by his side. " Jaime ASOS

What do we learn from the two above quotes?

1. The Dornish army are coming up the Kings Road. Meaning they were not at the Battle of the Bells, Otherwise they would have scattered with the rest of the Royal Army of Kings Landing.

2. The Royal Army is still in shambles at the Stoney Step. Sers Selmy and Darry leave kings Landing to rally them back together.

3. Prince Lewyn was sent to take command of the Dornish army traveling UP the Kings Road. Had the 10,000 already been there they would have been with the commander of the Royal Army at the time Jon Connington. Saying they are traveling means they aren't sitting outside the gate or retreating from the Sept.

4. The Dornish Army came with Rhaegar or it was on it's way before he left the Tower of Joy.

5. Aerys quickly thought of betrayal after the Trident. Which sounds as if he already doubted their loyalty, rather it should have been or not. I agree Dorne was loyal. Aerys reaction seems to be he thought they were not.

So as I said before. Dorne only fought on the Trident and Aerys doubted their loyalty.