Does it make sense to assume that Rhaegar married Lyanna?

[Lord Varys]

I know, I know, there are plenty of reasons to assume that this is the case, the best being that the Kingsguard knights, especially Ser Gerold Hightower, are there.

On the other hand: What kind of Septon would have married Rhaegar to Lyanna?

Ser Gerold could have been told by Rhaegar (and Oswell/Arthur) that Lyanna had married Rhaegar, and that their child was a royal prince. Or Rhaegar could have simply commanded Ser Gerold to stay at the Tower - Oswell and Arthur were Rhaegar's friends, they would have stayed anyway.

We should also keep in mind that the whole Tower of Joy scene is a dream sequence, heavily restructured and re-imagined by Ned, which could essentially mean that the whole 'Where were you.. I looked for you at...' dialogue never actually occurred.

TRP and TPatQ seem to confirm that the Targaryens did not practice polygamy after Maegor. This is especially noteworthy since the Targaryen dragons should have made the kings and princes from Jaehaerys I until after the Dance powerful enough to defy the Faith in this matter.

And I know that some people are entertaining the idea that Daemon Blackfyre may have intended to take Daenerys as second wife, but the thought that he could have gone through with that is ridiculous.

If we assume that the continuation of the incestuous marriages and/or Maegor's decision to take more than one wife caused the Faith Militant Uprising (first against Aenys and then against Maegor), then it would be highly unlikely to assume that the Prince of Dragonstone and the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne of Westeros could take a second wife whilst Princess Elia was still alive.

Sure, Rhaegar could (and would) have done it in secret, but that's exactly my point in the question above - what kind of Septon would conducted such a marriage ceremony?

As far as we know Rhaegar had no septon friends, so my guess is that any septon he would have approached in this matter - it would have to be a septon close to the Tower of Joy or wherever in the Riverlands Rhaegar captured Lyanna - would have been forced to officiate at the ceremony. He would also have been aware of the fact that neither the king nor the queen were informed about this whole thing or had given their consent.

As to polygamy in itself:

I don't think the Faith knew the concept of polygamy at all. When the Aegon and Maegor practiced it, they did so without special permission by the Faith (I'm pretty sure Aegon I married his sister according to Valyrian custom on Dragonstone, and Maegor most certainly did whatever the hell he wanted, at least after he became king), which would mean that the Faith never formally allowed this kind of thing. This, in turn, would mean that the Targaryens could not really Aegon's and Maegor's multiple wives as a precedent for polygamy (at least not for polygamy permitted by the Faith of the Seven).

In that regard, it's clearly telling that the Targaryen kings after Maegor never tried to take more than one wife at the same time. If he had believed he could get away with it, Aegon IV would most certainly have married each (or at least some) of his mistresses.

In conclusion: How likely is it that Rhaegar was truly married to Lyanna? And if you believe that they did marry, how do you think came it to pass?

Edit: Damn it, completely overlooked the other thread discussing a similar topic. If no one is going to post here, I'll submit the posting in the other thread as well. Sorry about that.

[JonSnow4President]

We can't just flat assume, with no basis, that they were.

However, we have a little bit of a basis (Rhaegar talking about a son to rule the kingdom as king, whose is the song of ice and fire, kingsguard presence, etc.).

Who says they were married by a septon. There was an grove of weirwoods nearby (leading to Bran being able to view the ceremony). Maybe they just got some old drunk septon to do it (Tyrion's marriage). Maybe he threatened a septon. Who knows.

[Boarsbane]

However, we have a little bit of a basis (Rhaegar talking about a son to rule the kingdom as king, whose is the song of ice and fire, kingsguard presence, etc.).

He was talking about Aegon

[Lord Varys]

A First Men would have to involve some witnesses, a person stepping in for the father of the bride (although that does not seem to always necessary), and, most importantly, a heart tree. There seem to be no weirwoods/heart trees left in the South, at least not outside the castles of the lords. And it does not seem to be the case that Rhaegar and Lyanna visited some castle to get married. If they had done that, pretty much all Westeros would have learned very quickly what they had done.

There are groves of cut-down weirwoods everywhere, though. But I'm not sure if they could have been married there.

[JonSnow4President]

He was talking about Aegon

Is he for sure though? He says his name shall be Aegon (we have no idea what the hell he planned on naming Jon). The Ice and Fire line makes absolutely zero sense with Aegon as well.

And the Isle of Faces is RIGHT near where the tourney was held.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

TRP and TPatQ seem to confirm that the Targaryens did not practice incest after Maegor.

What? I only guess that Aegon II & Helaena, Aegon IV & Naerys and Aerys & Rhaella were not sibling.

A First Men would have to involve some witnesses, a person stepping in for the father of the bride (although that does not seem to always necessary), and, most importantly, a heart tree. There seem to be no weirwoods/heart trees left in the South, at least not outside the castles of the lords. And it does not seem to be the case that Rhaegar and Lyanna visited some castle to get married. If they had done that, pretty much all Westeros would have learned very quickly what they had done.

There are groves of cut-down weirwoods everywhere, though. But I'm not sure if they could have been married there.

The Isle of the Faces and High heart come to my mind.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If the Crown Prince tells a septon to marry him, the septon obeys. Especially if said Crown Prince has some KG with him.

Furthermore, to marry according to the Old Gods, you need only a tree, a cloak and some witnesses. Doesn't need to be a weirwood, any tree you can carve a face into suffices. And two KG make splendid witnesses.

[David Selig]

Who cares? No way to prove it in univerce. And no, an object in Lyanna's tomb is not a proof no matter how much some people here wished it to be.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Who cares? No way to prove it in univerce. And no, an object in Lyanna's tomb is not a proof no matter how much some people here wished it to be.

Spot on.

Except to Jon, Arya, Sansa, Bran and Rickon.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

If Rhaegar had gotten permission from the HS to take a second wife, due to Elia's health making more childbearing dangerous for her, then he and Lyanna could have been married by any septon. The weirwoods are also possible but that would probably result in a big discussion about whether a weirwood marriage would be considered legally binding in a Westeros were most follow the Faith of the Seven.

Who cares? No way to prove it in univerce. And no, an object in Lyanna's tomb is not a proof no matter how much some people here wished it to be.

Well the author writing it in a book would prove it. We're all trying to guess what will come up in TWoW. This is one possible topic to be dealt with in that volume.

As to the second...depends on what the "object" is. Some kind of document proving the marriage, would in fact prove the marriage. A dragon egg would indicate that there was a child, and the child was considered by Rhaegar to be legitimate (Targ bastards did not get eggs). None of that would necessarily link to Jon, but it could prove that Rhae Rhae and Lya got hitched.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

The weirwood option seems a bit off to me. Is there any precedent whatsoever for followers of the Old Gods to practice polygamy? If Rhaegar was looking for apparent legitimacy (i.e., legitimacy before the eyes of the men) or some form of religious legitimacy (i.e., legitimacy before the eyes of the gods), choosing to get married into a religion foreign to the Targaryens, foreign to polygamy, and practiced only in the North, would seem to be a uniquely bad idea. This is setting aside the witness question.

Then again, while I don't care for his legitimacy generally, I would jump up for joy if we found out that they were married on the Isle of Faces with green men as their witnesses.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

The weirwood option seems a bit off to me. Is there any precedent whatsoever for followers of the Old Gods to practice polygamy? If Rhaegar was looking for apparent legitimacy (i.e., legitimacy before the eyes of the men) or some form of religious legitimacy (i.e., legitimacy before the eyes of the gods), choosing to get married into a religion foreign to the Targaryens, foreign to polygamy, and practiced only in the North, would seem to be a uniquely bad idea. This is setting aside the witness question.

Then again, while I don't care for his legitimacy generally, I would jump up for joy if we found out that they were married on the Isle of Faces with green men as their witnesses.

No. But there isn't any for polygamy with the New Gods either. Targs don't care.

[Pod The Impaler]

I do not believe they did marry. However, I see no reason why Rhaegar would not be able to find a willing Septon - he was crown prince, so all he need do is ask. How likely is it one would refuse ?

[TheHouseHB]

Yes especially if Rhaegar believed Jon was one of the three heads of the dragon Rhaegar would need Jon to be legitimate. I think we will see in one of Brans future chapters Rhaegar and Lyanna marrying in front of a heart tree.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

No. But there isn't any for polygamy with the New Gods either. Targs don't care.

Sure, the Targs don't care. But breaking all the rules kind of defeats the point if you're after legitimacy. Legitimacy in the eyes of who? When the Targs married multiple wives centuries before Robert's Rebellion, they were basically able to get a polygamy pass from the High Septon (implicitly, at least). Arguably Rhaegar could claim that the Faith of the Seven had approved of this arrangement in the past. But no such thing could be said about the Old Gods.

If you're intent on breaking all of the rules, why not just exchange vows in front of a toilet and call it a religion? The answer is that no one would recognize such a thing. Similiarly, I don't think anyone would recognize a secret second marriage before the Old Gods by a Targaryen crown prince. It's just too far out there to give any modicum of legitimacy.

[J. Stargaryen]

I know, I know, there are plenty of reasons to assume that this is the case, the best being that the Kingsguard knights, especially Ser Gerold Hightower, are there.

On the other hand: What kind of Septon would have married Rhaegar to Lyanna?

The kind who agreed with Rhaegar that there was precedent for Targaryen polygamy.

Ser Gerold could have been told by Rhaegar (and Oswell/Arthur) that Lyanna had married Rhaegar, and that their child was a royal prince. Or Rhaegar could have simply commanded Ser Gerold to stay at the Tower - Oswell and Arthur were Rhaegar's friends, they would have stayed anyway.

We should also keep in mind that the whole Tower of Joy scene is a dream sequence, heavily restructured and re-imagined by Ned, which could essentially mean that the whole 'Where were you.. I looked for you at...' dialogue never actually occurred.

I don't discount the possibility that the dialogue from Ned's dream is entirely his own creation. But I don't think that lessens its significance one bit. Why did GRRM include it?

TRP and TPatQ seem to confirm that the Targaryens did not practice polygamy after Maegor. This is especially noteworthy since the Targaryen dragons should have made the kings and princes from Jaehaerys I until after the Dance powerful enough to defy the Faith in this matter.

And I know that some people are entertaining the idea that Daemon Blackfyre may have intended to take Daenerys as second wife, but the thought that he could have gone through with that is ridiculous.

Yet either Rhaenyra or Daemon apparently asked Viserys for permission to marry, implying that at least one of them thought polygamy was possible. Viserys' rejection would have provided the well read Rhaegar with a motive to run off and marry Lyanna in secret.

Also, I think the succession crisis following Aenys' death would provide an extremely strong motive for future Targaryen kings to stick to one wife. Btw, the practice of polygamy was a Valyrian custom that was never common, so it's not a surprise that few Targaryens adopted it.

If we assume that the continuation of the incestuous marriages and/or Maegor's decision to take more than one wife caused the Faith Militant Uprising (first against Aenys and then against Maegor), then it would be highly unlikely to assume that the Prince of Dragonstone and the Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne of Westeros could take a second wife whilst Princess Elia was still alive.

Why would we assume this when we were specifically told it was the incest that the Faith objected to? If we assume that red is blue...

Sure, Rhaegar could (and would) have done it in secret, but that's exactly my point in the question above - what kind of Septon would conducted such a marriage ceremony?

As far as we know Rhaegar had no septon friends, so my guess is that any septon he would have approached in this matter - it would have to be a septon close to the Tower of Joy or wherever in the Riverlands Rhaegar captured Lyanna - would have been forced to officiate at the ceremony. He would also have been aware of the fact that neither the king nor the queen were informed about this whole thing or had given their consent.

As to polygamy in itself:

I don't think the Faith knew the concept of polygamy at all. When the Aegon and Maegor practiced it, they did so without special permission by the Faith (I'm pretty sure Aegon I married his sister according to Valyrian custom on Dragonstone, and Maegor most certainly did whatever the hell he wanted, at least after he became king), which would mean that the Faith never formally allowed this kind of thing. This, in turn, would mean that the Targaryens could not really Aegon's and Maegor's multiple wives as a precedent for polygamy (at least not for polygamy permitted by the Faith of the Seven).

Nor did they ever formally object to it, as far as we know. The Targaryens were above the laws of gods and men.

In that regard, it's clearly telling that the Targaryen kings after Maegor never tried to take more than one wife at the same time. If he had believed he could get away with it, Aegon IV would most certainly have married each (or at least some) of his mistresses.

Most certainly? Built upon a number of dubious assumptions, this conclusion isn't worth much, if anything.

In conclusion: How likely is it that Rhaegar was truly married to Lyanna? And if you believe that they did marry, how do you think came it to pass?

Extremely. Unsure.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Sure, the Targs don't care. But breaking all the rules kind of defeats the point if you're after legitimacy. Legitimacy in the eyes of who? When the Targs married multiple wives centuries before Robert's Rebellion, they were basically able to get a polygamy pass from the High Septon (implicitly, at least). Arguably Rhaegar could claim that the Faith of the Seven had approved of this arrangement in the past. But no such thing could be said about the Old Gods.

If you're intent on breaking all of the rules, why not just exchange vows in front of a toilet and call it a religion? The answer is that no one would recognize such a thing. Similiarly, I don't think anyone would recognize a secret second marriage before the Old Gods by a Targaryen crown prince. It's just too far out there to give any modicum of legitimacy.

And you assume Rhaegar to act all smart and mature and with foresight? The guy was an insane nutjob, especially if marriage politics were involved.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Who cares? No way to prove it in univerce. And no, an object in Lyanna's tomb is not a proof no matter how much some people here wished it to be.

For what feels like the billionth time: If it's going to matter, he'll find a way to make it matter. You repeating "no way to prove it" over and over and over isn't going to change that.

And for not caring, you comment on this particular subject a lot.

[BearQueen87]

Who cares? No way to prove it in univerce. And no, an object in Lyanna's tomb is not a proof no matter how much some people here wished it to be.

Even if it only matters to Jon and his personal story of where he came from, it'll matter. Even if R and L were married but it doesn't mean jack for Jon and the throne, it is still a core piece of his identity. Even if he considers Ned his father for all of time, these are still the two people that made him. It matters. Who knows...maybe it won't matter politically or magically (which I don't buy, but for the sake of argument) but it will matter to Jon.

[Lady Baela Targaryen]

A dragon egg would indicate that there was a child, and the child was considered by Rhaegar to be legitimate (Targ bastards did not get eggs).

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Butterwell