Tyrion killed Jon

[Hugorfonics]

"And to hold it you need men, which I've given you . . . as you might have noted, if your ears heard anything but insults. Take them, thank me, and begone before I'm forced to take a crab fork to you again. Give my warm regards to Lord Mormont . . . and to Jon Snow as well." Bronn seized Ser Alliser by the elbow and marched him forcefully from the hall.

Chances are that Ser Alliser organized the hit on Jon because he's a dick, and friends with Janos Slynt, (who had a day to conspire against Jon) and was given freedom from Jons eyes when he was sent off ranging.

Besides Marsh is too stupid to plan this all out.

But I think my quote proves Ser Alliser was behind this.

These Lannister boys gotta stop giving out their regards

[lyannaisalive]

"And to hold it you need men, which I've given you . . . as you might have noted, if your ears heard anything but insults. Take them, thank me, and begone before I'm forced to take a crab fork to you again. Give my warm regards to Lord Mormont . . . and to Jon Snow as well." Bronn seized Ser Alliser by the elbow and marched him forcefully from the hall.

Chances are that Ser Alliser organized the hit on Jon because he's a dick, and friends with Janos Slynt, (who had a day to conspire against Jon) and was given freedom from Jons eyes when he was sent off ranging.

Besides Marsh is too stupid to plan this all out.

But I think my quote proves Ser Alliser was behind this.

These Lannister boys gotta stop giving out their regards

Tyrion is actually fond of Jon IIRC so I don't see him wanting to kill him.

[Leonardo]

Tyrion is actually fond of Jon IIRC so I don't see him wanting to kill him.

Well the point is that it was accidental imo, not that Tyrion planned it personally.

Tyrion unwittingly provided some of Jon Snow's worst enemies and reasons not to like him as well

I think Lenin is onto something actually, as I have long wondered some of the motive behind the attack

[Buried Treasure]

Chances are that Ser Alliser organized the hit on Jon because he's a dick, and friends with Janos Slynt, (who had a day to conspire against Jon) and was given freedom from Jons eyes when he was sent off ranging.

Besides Marsh is too stupid to plan this all out.

But I think my quote proves Ser Alliser was behind this.

These Lannister boys gotta stop giving out their regards

So you are saying Thorne conspired with Slynt even though the latter is dead?

Thorne is not entirely free from Jon's eyes. He was sent out with two other Rangers picked by Jon, and even though Thorne nominally had seniority of that group Jon would not have picked men that were loyal to Thorne rather than himself. Those other two Rangers are also more experienced at actually ranging than Thorne, so he would be reliant on them for a good chance of survival.

And how, do you say, was Thorne conspiring with anyone at the Wall? He's cut off because he is ranging far afield. He has ravens for communication but they only go to Castle Black so Jon would have known if they had been sent, and no ravens would reach him because, again, he is ranging beyond the Wall.

[lyannaisalive]

I think it was arranged my Cersei. There are 100 men on the way to join the watch but really to assassinate Jon. She could have told Marsh to kill Jon or they will have one more person to kill on their arrival. Or more crackpot.........Little Finger tried to have him killed.

[fuem]

No.
Cersei wanted him dead etc
The black brothers wanted him dead for a lot of things
No.

[Lykos]

So you are saying Thorne conspired with Slynt even though the latter is dead?

Thorne is not entirely free from Jon's eyes. He was sent out with two other Rangers picked by Jon, and even though Thorne nominally had seniority of that group Jon would not have picked men that were loyal to Thorne rather than himself. Those other two Rangers are also more experienced at actually ranging than Thorne, so he would be reliant on them for a good chance of survival.

And how, do you say, was Thorne conspiring with anyone at the Wall? He's cut off because he is ranging far afield. He has ravens for communication but they only go to Castle Black so Jon would have known if they had been sent, and no ravens would reach him because, again, he is ranging beyond the Wall.

Thanks to Tyrion´s careless remarks and the story of how he treated Slynt and moreso Allar Deem Thorne had good reasons to think that Jon would try to kill him.

"Deem. Tell the captain it would not be taken amiss if that one should happen to be swept overboard before they reach Eastwatch."

Three of the nine Jon sent Thorne out to range with have already returned - Heads on spikes empty eyesockets weeping blood - so there´s a good chance the group is broken up, and regarding the question how Thorne could have crossed the Wall without Jon being notified there is this.

"Glendon Hewett was a seasoned man and a strong one, a sensible choice to command in Cotter Pyke’s absence. But he was also as much a friend as Alliser Thorne could boast, and a crony of sorts with Janos Slynt, however briefly. Jon could still recall how Hewett had dragged him from his bed, and the feel of his boot slamming into his ribs. Not the man I would have chosen."

And yet for some reason I don´t think Thorne had anything to do with the attack on Jon (I believe the attack was never meant to kill Jon, but that´s for another thread.). I expect a heroic deed from Ser Allisser that will make me feel conflicted about him, as it is Martin´s way of doing things. ;)

Glandon Hewett might become interesting when he hears what Euron has done to his home on the shield islands. I wonder how he´ll feel towards Cotter Pyke?

[Hugorfonics]

I'm pretty confident that Lord Slynt organized everything, he talked a lot of smack, I have many friends, which is true; He almost won the election. With him brutally murdered his followers will no doubt despise him, thinking of him as a martyr.

They say that Thorne is ranging in the north, but I don't believe it. Who's to say the Weaper is there and not Thorne? Bowen Marsh?

But really if this is true. Jaime gave his regards and Robb dies in book 3

Tyrion gives his regards in book 2 and Jon croaks in book 5.

How is grrm this good?

[lyannaisalive]

With him brutally murdered

:shocked: how was he brutally murdered.........

[Bryanfury]

I wouldn't say Tyrion killed Jon anymore than Jaime killed Robb. I can agree that there is a chance that GRRM has intentionally placed that line in there as a subtle reference to the Jaime-Bolton-Robb situation.

[Buried Treasure]

Thanks to Tyrion´s careless remarks and the story of how he treated Slynt and moreso Allar Deem Thorne had good reasons to think that Jon would try to kill him.

"Deem. Tell the captain it would not be taken amiss if that one should happen to be swept overboard before they reach Eastwatch."

Thorne has better evidence than that of whether Jon wants to kill him - the actual interactions between the two of them. Jon has shown he is willing to kill NW members that defy his authority (Slynt) but Jon did not try to punish or hurt Thorne after he backed down (during Slynt's arrest).

Better evidence yet is the fact of Jon sending Thorne out ranging. It definitely shows that Jon is willing to accept Thorne dying, but does not indicate Jon specifically wants Thorne dead as he sent him out with two other Rangers that Jon would not want dead and what Jon really wants is the intelligence that he will only receive if the party survives.

Three of the nine Jon sent Thorne out to range with have already returned - Heads on spikes empty eyesockets weeping blood - so there´s a good chance the group is broken up...

Three groups of three men were sent out. One of those groups was killed, that reinforces that it is dangerous beyond the Wall and that it is a possibility the group Thorne is with is already dead. It does not increase the chances that Thorne has been seperated from the two Rangers Jon selected to travel with him, or increase Thorne's odds of surviving alone.

...and regarding the question how Thorne could have crossed the Wall without Jon being notified there is this.

"Glendon Hewett was a seasoned man and a strong one, a sensible choice to command in Cotter Pykes absence. But he was also as much a friend as Alliser Thorne could boast, and a crony of sorts with Janos Slynt, however briefly. Jon could still recall how Hewett had dragged him from his bed, and the feel of his boot slamming into his ribs. Not the man I would have chosen."

...

Glandon Hewett might become interesting when he hears what Euron has done to his home on the shield islands. I wonder how he´ll feel towards Cotter Pyke?

Hewett being left in command happened long after Thorne left the Wall. In fact even the news that Hardhome needed rescuing and that Pyke might potentially be leaving Eastwatch happened after Thorne left the Wall. So Thorne would not know Hewett has command at Eastwatch because he is beyond the reach of communication with two other members of the NW loyal to Jon.

[Hugorfonics]

:shocked: how was he brutally murdered.........

he was dragged in the dirt and beheaded like a criminal.

@buried treasure

You seem to trust these 2 rangers. Unless their names are Grenn and Pyp they may be agents of Thorne. Who's to say the Weaper is the only one out there.

Thorne is popular,being one of the only knights, Jons a "turncloak"

Jon was only elected because of Mallister And Pyke. And because Stannis hates Janos. Not because hes more popular then Thorne

[willofDorne]

Tyrion is actually fond of Jon IIRC so I don't see him wanting to kill him.

If you remember Tyrion's conversation with Jon Snow as they are on their way to the wall, he pisses Jon off (again). This time Jon has to hold back Ghost from killing Tyrion outright. It's my personal feeling that the Imp has a lot of interactions with people that make them think, and have far reaching consequences. It's also my opinion that Tyrion wasn't a good influence on Jon, especially when he tells Jon that he used to stare into the fire and watch his family burn. After this scene, Jon is sitting there staring into the fire....

[Buried Treasure]

he was dragged in the dirt and beheaded like a criminal.

@buried treasure

You seem to trust these 2 rangers. Unless their names are Grenn and Pyp they may be agents of Thorne. Who's to say the Weaper is the only one out there.

Thorne is popular,being one of the only knights, Jons a "turncloak"

Jon was only elected because of Mallister And Pyke. And because Stannis hates Janos. Not because hes more popular then Thorne

I don't trust these two rangers so much as I trust that Jon would have specifically chosen two rangers that he could have trusted to be more loyal to him than to Thorne. Jon knows these men better than us, and before Jon was elected it was not hidden who Thorne's/Slynts's cronies were. I don't recall if the third ranger was named but one of the rangers was Dywen, who has been generally shown in a positive light - he was one of the 'good' rangers that survived Craster's Keep and has been part of the group that included Grenn, Pyp and Dolorous Edd.

Thorne is explicitly stated to not be popular. It is the reason given that he did not himself run for LC, when as a senior officer he should have been a good candidate.

[Hugorfonics]

Thorne ran for LC and got a bunch of votes, but submitted to Janos because Slynt was going to win (he probably would have, if it weren't for Sam). He's popular among the pompous and well born because he's a knight, and I'm sure his skill in arms got him some respect.

Dywen is a competent ranger but Allisers mad conniving.

Slynt ran for LC on the grounds of killing oath breakers and sons if oath breakers and Wargs. He was upset when Jon got elected. And he's no fool, he started as a small folk and became a lord. Without a doubt him and Alliser started conspiring day one of Jons reign. When Slynt was ordered to travel, he refuted Jons claim and said he has many friends. Before he died he re said he has friends. He wasn't lying.

If Jon can climb the wall, why can't Thorne?

If the old bear can get murdered in the haunted forest, why can't Dywen

[Drogon'sWrath]

Thorne ran for LC and got a bunch of votes, but submitted to Janos because Slynt was going to win (he probably would have, if it weren't for Sam). He's popular among the pompous and well born because he's a knight, and I'm sure his skill in arms got him some respect.

Dywen is a competent ranger but Allisers mad conniving.

Slynt ran for LC on the grounds of killing oath breakers and sons if oath breakers and Wargs. He was upset when Jon got elected. And he's no fool, he started as a small folk and became a lord. Without a doubt him and Alliser started conspiring day one of Jons reign. When Slynt was ordered to travel, he refuted Jons claim and said he has many friends. Before he died he re said he has friends. He wasn't lying.

If Jon can climb the wall, why can't Thorne?

If the old bear can get murdered in the haunted forest, why can't Dywen

I think you give Thorne and Slynt far too much credit. Sure, they didn't like the fact Jon was LC, and there's a chance they were conspiring against Jon. But that's about it. Thorne has a low cunning at best and Slynt was just plain stupid. There's only one reason Slynt became a lord, and that reason is Littlefinger. And it's well established in the books that Thorne isn't very popular. I forget exactly how many votes he got in the election, but he was close to last place.

[lyannaisalive]

he was dragged in the dirt and beheaded like a criminal.

@buried treasure

You seem to trust these 2 rangers. Unless their names are Grenn and Pyp they may be agents of Thorne. Who's to say the Weaper is the only one out there.

Thorne is popular,being one of the only knights, Jons a "turncloak"

Jon was only elected because of Mallister And Pyke. And because Stannis hates Janos. Not because hes more popular then Thorne

He continually disobeyed his orders and undermined his authority and was ounished by death. He wasnt dragged in the dirt and it was a clean kill that's not murder that's justice (and maybe a little revenge :cheers: )

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

he was dragged in the dirt and beheaded like a criminal.

By the standards of the Night's Watch, he was a criminal. Insubordination in the military outfit has a penalty of death, let alone repeated insubordination.

I think you're overestimating people's loyalty to Slynt and Thorne's desire to get rid of Jon. No one voted for Slynt because they actually wanted him to be lord commander. They did so because they thought that it would get the Watch in the Lannisters' good graces. Thorne had his chance during the altercation with Slynt to stand against Jon or speak up for Slynt; he did neither. Does he like Jon, obviously not. Would he (bearing in mind that he has up to this point played by the rules) organize a hit against Jon? I don't think so.

Of course Slynt said he had friends. That's what any guy with his nuts to the fire says in order to save himself. Is it necessarily true? Not really, no. Where were these friends when Slynt was forced up to the Wall in the first place?

I also dispute the idea that Thorne is "popular." I'm pretty sure that he's actually pretty widely despised because of the hell to which he subjects the recruits.

In other words, I think you're reading the Watch's dynamics completely wrong.

[Hugorfonics]

I'm not praising Janos or Alliser, and I'm not condoning Janos' death.

Janos and Alliser were both given orders to depart Castle Black because of their rebellious nature. Janos punked Jon and was given 24 hours to change his mind. He probably wrote Cersei that letter in affc, or one of his agents. I imagine he made other plans by the wall concerning Jon.

Janos was appalled by Neds treason (he honestly believes Neds guilty) and ever 7 fearing man hates wargs; but Janos truly hates Jon because of the poison Alliser flushed in his ear. He's hated Jon since he made that joke. Jon claims Alliser was the smarter one of the two, when Janos was arrested Jon literally wishes for Alliser to show his steel, Allisers smarter than that, and evidently hides his steel quite well. Thorne is not popular among the recruits, but they're all dead. I feel like aside from Satin and Leathers, Sam is the newest recruit. The older men respect Thorne. The Septon and Marsh spoke to him pleasantly before the election. I never heard Mallister or Pyke complain about him, and The Old Bear saw his worth.

[The Kinkslayer]

Thorne was sent to the wall because he was a Targaryen loyalist. We know that Rhaegar isn't Mance, but he can be the weeper. This implies that Rhaegar conspired with Thorne and Marsh to kill his lovechild, possibly because he finally heard a complete version of the song of ice and fire from Mance (he knows all songs north and south of the wall)