Robb Could Have Won

[I'm the Party Pooper]

The Stark fanbase is going to be disappointed to hear that.

The Stannis fanbase is going to be suicidal to hear that as well. :-P

[Bryanfury]

The Stark fanbase is going to be disappointed to hear that.

Why would the Stark fanbase be disappointed about you saying Tywin won a war that is still going on after his death?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Why would the Stark fanbase be disappointed about you saying Tywin won a war that is still going on after his death?

Because the GNC hypothesis is based on the entire North uniting to restore the likeable Starks.

Never mind that Winter is here and they have already lost thousands of the men fighting the Starks revenge wars, but they want to risk even more just to be ruled by the Starks. Ridiculous, and if true, they are even more sheep like than the Lhazareen

[Bryanfury]

And this has what to with the delusion that a rotting corpse has already won an ongoing war?

[The Marquis de Leech]

And this has what to with the delusion that a rotting corpse has already won an ongoing war?

OK. Given that:

1. Viserys and Daenerys were still very much alive at the opening of AGOT.

2. Viserys was styling himself Viserys III.

3. Dorne, at least, wanted a Targaryen restoration.

Was Robert's Rebellion still going at the start of AGOT? Must a war finish only when every last crumb of opposition is killed?

[Rhaegar the Dragon Prince]

What should have happened is when they tried to crown him he should have told them "My father fought beside Robert to win the Iron Throne, the Tullys and Arryns fought for Robert's Crown and I believe in the Baratheon Crown. But Joffery is no Baratheon. We fight restore a true King and free my family"

Then could have cut a deal with either Renly or Stannis and won. The Lannisters would be gone and a new family would be in power in the Westerlands. Renly would have helped destroy the Iron Born. Lyssa would probably be striped of her role in the Vale.

You are absolutely right, the moment Robb took the crown he was doomed

Pretty much. He must have known that whoever ended up on the Iron Throne wouldn't be too happy about losing the North and Riverlands.

[The Fallen]

Because the GNC hypothesis is based on the entire North uniting to restore the likeable Starks.

Never mind that Winter is here and they have already lost thousands of the men fighting the Starks revenge wars, but they want to risk even more just to be ruled by the Starks. Ridiculous, and if true, they are even more sheep like than the Lhazareen

First, I'm a Stark fan. I like what they stand for. And the GNC is too convoluted for me. Too many working parts.

Second, my hope is that the Starks somehow get back on their feet and reclaim Winterfell and the North. And of course get revenge on some of the parties that were a part of their downfall. I'm not sure what kind of winning that constitutes, but I would be content.

Can you blame the northmen for preferring the Starks to the Boltons? Or for preferring to be independent and not be ruled by kings who kill their overlords every other generation?

[Sir Lee knot]

OK. Given that:

1. Viserys and Daenerys were still very much alive at the opening of AGOT.

2. Viserys was styling himself Viserys III.

3. Dorne, at least, wanted a Targaryen restoration.

Was Robert's Rebellion still going at the start of AGOT? Must a war finish only when every last crumb of opposition is killed?

That is a shit example.

Robert's rebellion ended because Robert took the throne and there was no actual warring going on. In this case all the original Kings but Stannis are dead but their successors still fight the same cause and warring is still going on for that cause.

The fact that Stannis and the Ironborn are still fighting means Tywin didn't win. Can you just admit you were wrong. This is honestly one of the stupider arguments I've had the misfortune of being part of.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

First, I'm a Stark fan. I like what they stand for. And the GNC is too convoluted for me. Too many working parts.

Second, my hope is that the Starks somehow get back on their feet and reclaim Winterfell and the North. And of course get revenge on some of the parties that were a part of their downfall. I'm not sure what kind of winning that constitutes, but I would be content.

Can you blame the northmen for preferring the Starks to the Boltons? Or for preferring to be independent and not be ruled by kings who kill their overlords every other generation?

I actually think the Starks will reclaim the North, not because how honorable they are or that they would never accept Roose. The problem is Ramsay, he will be the one who eventually causes Roose's downfall. I imagine that if he survies the Seige of Winterfell he is going to do something stupid to Lady Dustin causing a split in the Bolton alliance.

[Nittanian]

Until the Mountain Clans (never before hinted at, and ignored both in terms of Robb going South, and in resistance to the Ironborn) were introduced into the story

While their manpower comes as a surprise in ADWD, GRRM did introduce them in ASOS. Bran tells the Reeds about the mountain clans (Wulls, Harclays, Knotts, Liddles, Norreys, Flints) and they meet a Liddle in the hills. Norreys and Burleys are attacked by Gregor at the ruby ford and Owen Norrey is killed at the RW. Aemon sends ravens to the Liddles, Burleys, Norreys, Harclays, and Wulls.

[Winterfell is Burning]

OK. Given that:

1. Viserys and Daenerys were still very much alive at the opening of AGOT.

2. Viserys was styling himself Viserys III.

3. Dorne, at least, wanted a Targaryen restoration.

Was Robert's Rebellion still going at the start of AGOT? Must a war finish only when every last crumb of opposition is killed?

Every single Targaryen supporter bent the knee, and many had already fought for Robert,either in the Greyjoy Rebellion or in capturing the Dragonstone. The Targaryens lost every adult in their house and all their lands and castles and were forced to exile. Hardly comparable.

[Ramsay Gimp]

1. The Tyrells offed Joffrey for personal reasons. They are still tied to the Iron Throne.

2. Yes, Stannis lost the Blackwater. Wars have consequences.

3. Littlefinger's authority to do anything comes from the Iron Throne.

4. Doran's schemes consist of him rubbing his hands together, thinking how clever he is. He does absolutely nothing except suppress those elements who want to challenge the Iron Throne.

5. Loyalty to what Starks? As far as the Riverlords know, they're all dead. If disliking someone counted as waging war, then Robert's reign would have been nothing but war.

6. Up until Martin decided to throw in the clansmen as a deus ex machina (I'm only talking about ASOS), Roose comfortably has the largest military force in the North. And his job is to kick out the Ironborn, which all Northmen can get behind, even if they hate the Boltons,

7. Euron is AFFC, not ASOS.

Essentially your argument hinges on two points - that the Lannister regime is under renewed threat after Tywin's death, and that people still hate the Lannisters. The former is irrelevant, as it considers the AFFC and ADWD period under Cersei, and the latter suggests that to subdue a people you somehow have to get them to like you. Which is also highly irrelevant. Disliking the victor does not make them any less victorious.

:agree:

The rest is really full of desperate or non-arguments (Mountain Clans are a Deus Ex Machina, Roose has comfortable the biggest army in the North when everyone but the Karstarks is against him, etc) that isn't even worth responding.

-There were inaccuracies in your own post, like Euron raiding the Reach while Tywin lived

-The Mountain Clans and Manderly were not implied to be nearly as powerful in ASOS as they are in ADWD

-He meant that of all the individual Northern Houses, the Boltons were the strongest post-RW. Pretty obviously true. What do you think the Red Wedding was, exactly?

The fact that Stannis and the Ironborn are still fighting means Tywin didn't win. Can you just admit you were wrong. This is honestly one of the stupider arguments I've had the misfortune of being part of.

Just a heads up, your unpleasantness alone is enough to make me support the other side of the argument

[Ramsay Gimp]

I actually think the Starks will reclaim the North, not because how honorable they are or that they would never accept Roose. The problem is Ramsay, he will be the one who eventually causes Roose's downfall. I imagine that if he survies the Seige of Winterfell he is going to do something stupid to Lady Dustin causing a split in the Bolton alliance.

Roose could have held the North for his own lifespan if not for some bad luck. He wouldn't be loved, and he would be more limited in his power than the Starks were, but "a man can deal with Roose."

Of course after he was gone Ramsay would fuck it all up, but Roose knows that.

[Red Tiger]

1. The Tyrells offed Joffrey for personal reasons. They are still tied to the Iron Throne.

2. Yes, Stannis lost the Blackwater. Wars have consequences.

3. Littlefinger's authority to do anything comes from the Iron Throne.

4. Doran's schemes consist of him rubbing his hands together, thinking how clever he is. He does absolutely nothing except suppress those elements who want to challenge the Iron Throne.

5. Loyalty to what Starks? As far as the Riverlords know, they're all dead. If disliking someone counted as waging war, then Robert's reign would have been nothing but war.

6. Up until Martin decided to throw in the clansmen as a deus ex machina (I'm only talking about ASOS), Roose comfortably has the largest military force in the North. And his job is to kick out the Ironborn, which all Northmen can get behind, even if they hate the Boltons,

7. Euron is AFFC, not ASOS.

Essentially your argument hinges on two points - that the Lannister regime is under renewed threat after Tywin's death, and that people still hate the Lannisters. The former is irrelevant, as it considers the AFFC and ADWD period under Cersei, and the latter suggests that to subdue a people you somehow have to get them to like you. Which is also highly irrelevant. Disliking the victor does not make them any less victorious.

You say Littlefinger's authority to do anything comes from the Iron Throne. But so what? A bannerman's first duty is to his liegelord, not the throne. If Littlefinger gets the vale on his side one way or another he can still work against the crown. And having authority come from the crown did not stop him from helping to off Joffrey. He can do whatever he wants as long as he keeps his involvement under wraps. So the Vale is very much not controlled by the iT. I don't understand what the hell they were thinking when giving the biggest opportunistic weasel this side of the Freys, so much power. Get Lysa Arryn on the crown's side, but this just shows how shortsighted Tywin really is, as giving LF so much power will create several more problems.

I disagree with Doran being nothing more than a guy rubbing his hands together. His plan to marry Arianne off backfired because Viserys lost his mind, but him sending Arianne to treat with Aegon and his Golden Company can not only bring a tough mercenary army to Dorne, but them having the capital of the Stormlands and other Stormland castles can have political consequences when it comes to the Stormlands.

Even if the Riverlands are not loyal to the Starks, having the slimy Freys as the most powerful House there (as Baelish leading the riverlands from the Vale might be difficult) is not a good idea. They are perhaps more opportunistic than even Littlefinger.

You say that GRRM throwing in those Mountain clans was a Deus Ex Machina, but look closer. Hugo Wull is the most powerful of the Mountain clan leaders, but keep in mind that one of Ned's companions was Theo Wull, so they were hinted at before.

If Tywin had settled that debt with the Iron Bank before his death, the Bank would not have struck a deal with Stannis and Roose would have a lot less to worry about and Pycelle would not have to beg Tywin's psycho daughter to do so.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

You say Littlefinger's authority to do anything comes from the Iron Throne. But so what? A bannerman's first duty is to his liegelord, not the throne. If Littlefinger gets the vale on his side one way or another he can still work against the crown. And having authority come from the crown did not stop him from helping to off Joffrey. He can do whatever he wants as long as he keeps his involvement under wraps. So the Vale is very much not controlled by the iT. I don't understand what the hell they were thinking when giving the biggest opportunistic weasel this side of the Freys, so much power. Get Lysa Arryn on the crown's side, but this just shows how shortsighted Tywin really is, as giving LF so much power will create several more problems.

I disagree with Doran being nothing more than a guy rubbing his hands together. His plan to marry Arianne off backfired because Viserys lost his mind, but him sending Arianne to treat with Aegon and his Golden Company can not only bring a tough mercenary army to Dorne, but them having the capital of the Stormlands and other Stormland castles can have political consequences when it comes to the Stormlands.

Even if the Riverlands are not loyal to the Starks, having the slimy Freys as the most powerful House there (as Baelish leading the riverlands from the Vale might be difficult) is not a good idea. They are perhaps more opportunistic than even Littlefinger.

You say that GRRM throwing in those Mountain clans was a Deus Ex Machina, but look closer. Hugo Wull is the most powerful of the Mountain clan leaders, but keep in mind that one of Ned's companions was Theo Wull, so they were hinted at before.

If Tywin had settled that debt with the Iron Bank before his death, the Bank would not have struck a deal with Stannis and Roose would have a lot less to worry about and Pycelle would not have to beg Tywin's psycho daughter to do so.

Yes. Robb called the banners of the great houses of the North to join a disciplined military campaign to repel the Lannisters in Riverlands and if needed march onwards to liberate Ned. Speed was of the essence, which is why it wasn't even a 'full mobilisation' in the villages/ towns of the holdfasts around Winterfell.

I think had it been a case of repelling an all-out IB invasion or Lannister invasion, he would have reached out to the mountain clans and they would have come.

The Stark name is legend across the north and even beyond the wall 'House Stark' is a name that strikes fear and I'd say some begruding respect amongst the freefolk. Now I think the mountain clans could well have historic grievances against Kings of Winter/ dead Stark lords from generations past, but they probably respected Ned. The fact as you say that a Wull was one of Ned's riders speaks volumes. I think he'll have visited the clan to tell them how their son died and will have been remembered for that with respect.

Strong feeling the Mountain clans would have risen if Robb had called them and emphasised Ned being in danger.

[Pod The Impaler]

Roose and Ramsay for me had the largest role in Robb's downfall

Absolutely true.

The Boltons are responsible for virtually all the North's losses (meaning casualties) in the war.

Roose was in command at the Green Fork.

Ramsay sacked Winterfell and slaughtered the other Stark forces that were there.

Roose sent Robb's men on suicide missions at Duskendale and crossing the Trident, and finally the Red Wedding. (He was already betraying Robb, drawing down their forces from the locations Robb had placed them at, sending rival commanders to their deaths.)

Compare this to the Lannister forces, who got a few wins against Edmure Tully early on and then got the shit beaten out of them in every engagement. All their late successes were do to Roose's having engineered his own supposed side's defeat.

So basically, Balon and Roose defeated Robb. Unbelievable stupidity from one, and extreme treachery from the other.

Let's slay the myth Robb naturally would have lost - kill it, burn the body, and bury its bones.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The casualties at the Green Fork were done with Robb's blessing, under his orders, as part of his plan. Not really fair to give Roose full responsibility for them - he never had a good chance of beating Tywin with less men and no heavy horse

[Red Tiger]

You want some real Deus Ex Machinas? How about these 2

Renly, the guy with the biggest army, gets killed by a magical shadow baby.

Then Rodrik Cassell goes full retard and takes ALL of the Winterfell defenders away from the capital, leaving it so that even Maester Aemon could get inside with no problem.

[Ramsay Gimp]

You want some real Deus Ex Machinas? How about these 2

Renly, the guy with the biggest army, gets killed by a magical shadow baby.

Then Rodrik Cassell goes full retard and takes ALL of the Winterfell defenders away from the capital, leaving it so that even Maester Aemon could get inside with no problem.

-Renly was foreshadowed at least, and Mel had been shown to have magical powers

-Agreed on Ser Rodrick

[Red Tiger]

-Renly was foreshadowed at least, and Mel had been shown to have magical powers

-Agreed on Ser Rodrick

Yes, but don't you think the shadow baby is kinda lazy writing?

I understand Renly dying by somebody hiring a faceless man (shit I could see Tywin being as rich as he is hiring one), maybe Stannis has Renly poisoned by somebody or maybe he has soldiers infiltrate the camps or something, but a fucking shadow baby? Really? That seems really lazy to me.

Stannis and Mel fuck, he loses a bit of lifeforce and boom, Renly is gone.