R+L=J v.92

[mambru]

I agree this is a bit of hair splitting (what else is the board good for if not some good old hair splitting). I would argue, however, that believing you are necessary -- or your children are necessary -- to save the world is selfish only if you expect to get some personal gain out of their position as saviors.

Well, I don't think one can entirely exonerate Rhaegar of the charge of selfishness in taking Lyanna for savior-begetting sex, because such a move is not entirely devoid of personal gain - in the form of sex with a beautiful girl he's already attracted to AND a shucking of unpleasant responsibilities (in the form of a wife he was never interested in who can no longer serve his prophecy obsession, and his nerve-racking relationship with his dangerous, paranoid, smelly father - whom he's already tried and failed to deal with, as per Varys). He can tell himself that eloping for sex with Lyanna is being nobly altruistic till the cows come home - he may even believe it - but if it had really been destiny and the gods' will that Rhaegar and Lyanna get together, he wouldn't have felt the need to force the gods' hand and speed up their timetable by deciding he needs to run away with Lyanna right now.

So as Lord Varys (I think) said, I don't think we can rule out his attraction to Lyanna (hence a selfish motive, even if unconscious) as a factor in his decision to elope.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Well, I don't think one can entirely exonerate Rhaegar of the charge of selfishness in taking Lyanna for savior-begetting sex, because such a move is not entirely devoid of personal gain - in the form of sex with a beautiful girl he's already attracted to AND a shucking of unpleasant responsibilities (in the form of a wife he was never interested in who can no longer serve his prophecy obsession, and his nerve-racking relationship with his dangerous, paranoid, smelly father - whom he's already tried and failed to deal with, as per Varys). He can tell himself that eloping for sex with Lyanna is being nobly altruistic till the cows come home - he may even believe it - but if it had really been destiny and the gods' will that Rhaegar and Lyanna get together, he wouldn't have felt the need to force the gods' hand and speed up their timetable by deciding he needs to run away with Lyanna right now.

So as Lord Varys (I think) said, I don't think we can rule out his attraction to Lyanna (hence a selfish motive, even if unconscious) as a factor in his decision to elope.

Solid critique,

I haven't chimed in much regarding how Rhaegar felt about Lyanna, but I always took it as at first he felt like he needed her to help fulfill the prophecy, but as time passed, he started to fall for her.

[BearQueen87]

Well, I don't think one can entirely exonerate Rhaegar of the charge of selfishness in taking Lyanna for savior-begetting sex, because such a move is not entirely devoid of personal gain - in the form of sex with a beautiful girl he's already attracted to AND a shucking of unpleasant responsibilities (in the form of a wife he was never interested in who can no longer serve his prophecy obsession, and his nerve-racking relationship with his dangerous, paranoid, smelly father - whom he's already tried and failed to deal with, as per Varys). He can tell himself that eloping for sex with Lyanna is being nobly altruistic till the cows come home - he may even believe it - but if it had really been destiny and the gods' will that Rhaegar and Lyanna get together, he wouldn't have felt the need to force the gods' hand and speed up their timetable by deciding he needs to run away with Lyanna right now.

So as Lord Varys (I think) said, I don't think we can rule out his attraction to Lyanna (hence a selfish motive, even if unconscious) as a factor in his decision to elope.

He was attracted to her. I don't think any of us have said that he wasn't. It's a question of WHEN he began to fall in love. I think it was later, while they were communicating after Harrenhal. Some people think it was at Harrnehal. No one is saying that his savior-begetting sex was simply perfunctory and not without the pleasure of sex. Of course it had that element, and I think it had the element of love. Why else name the Tower the Tower of Joy. And none of us are trying to put Rhaegar in a glowing positive light.

[Ser Creighton]

Hmm, yolkboy and I have wondered about the song being associated with a battle or war. Though there is no doubt there's much more to it than that.

No not the only meaning to be sure. Do you happen to have a reference for GRRM saying this?

Why your saga is called A Song of Ice and Fire, because of the Wall and the dragons or is something more beyond that?

Oh! That’s the obvious thing but yes, there’s more. People say I was influenced by Robert Frost’s poem, and of course I was, I mean... Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.

That's the quote.

http://www.adriasnews.com/2012/10/george-r-r-martin-interview.html

Here is the interview, there is a lot of good stuff in there and it's long, it's from 2012. It also has a lot of prophecy stuff in it. Also he made a 2014 prediction for Winds, he is just so adorable. He had 400 pages written 2 years ago. I reference this interview all the time. Though I might point out over the last two year his answers to similar questions has become more concise, like that interview you posted he said he doesn't really believe in heroes. But here he sort of refers to everyone as the hero of their own story.

[BearQueen87]

From the interview Ser Creighton linked to;

So you know? That’s the way prophecies come true in unexpected ways. The more you try to avoid them, the more you are making them true, and I make a little fun with that.

If I extrapolate here, Rhaegar tried to confront the prophecies head on but the unexpected nature was that it wasn't him or even his son with Elia, but the son of his second wife conceived after she was "taken" and they were living in a broken down tower. :dunno:

[Ser Creighton]

From the interview Ser Creighton linked to;

If I extrapolate here, Rhaegar tried to confront the prophecies head on but the unexpected nature was that it wasn't him or even his son with Elia, but the son of his second wife conceived after she was "taken" and they were living in a broken down tower. :dunno:

"Dany knew how it went with prophecies. They were made of words, and words were wind."

Jon has a similar notion of them.

[ReRe]

End for whom? Because I would say that this acceptance never ended. The Targs found it harder to flout custom without their dragons, but that doesn't mean that they couldn't fly in the face of custom. Aerys and Rhaella, for instance, marry and commit insect even thought that is frowned up by the Faith. But the King (Jaehaerys II) forces his children to marry. If the High Septon has issues with Rhaegar taking two wives, well then Rhaegar can just get himself a new high septon.

"Commit insect" LOL right now. Thanks for making my day!

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

@BQ87

I'm on to you:

http://thecolbertreport.cc.com/videos/z8f9f5/exclusive---godless-killing-machines

[sj4iy]

Is these type of subtle hints, layered with dramatic irony and hidden meaning, that have convinced me to point Jon being born royalty and is the rightful King and true heir to the throne...

Mances blood is no more royal than mine own.

There would be a second life worthy of a king.

In the show:

Locke to Jon: Bastard eh? took you for a highborn.

Tormund: he your king now?

Jon: I don't have a king.

Tormund: You spent too much time with us, Jon Snow. You can never be a kneeler again.

Also I found another from the books, when Owen says to Jon that he dreamed that the King had come to their aid (while they were fighting on the Wall).

[Ser Creighton]

Also I found another from the books, when Owen says to Jon that he dreamed that the King had come to their aid (while they were fighting on the Wall).

In 55 Owen asked Jon if Robert was coming to their aid, he didn't know he was dead. Later of course in 73.

“Robert, Jon thought for one mad moment, remembering poor Owen, but when the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was “Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!”

Jon turned away, and went inside the tent.”

[FrozenFire3]

This thread is moving way too fast :unsure:

I elaborated on this notion in this essay

Beautiful analysis, Ygrain. Your emphasis on honour/doing-the-honourable-thing is spot on. When it comes to R+L, this aspect is often neglected...

In the show:

Locke to Jon: Bastard eh? took you for a highborn.

Tormund: he your king now?

Jon: I don't have a king.

Tormund: You spent too much time with us, Jon Snow. You can never be a kneeler again.

Not only:

You learn how to fight in a castle? Some old man teach you how to stand, how to parry? How to fight with honor? You know what's wrong with honor?

Well, Jorah does:

Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.

Last but not least...

I'm not sure either way, but lately I've been thinking that Rhaegar never changed his mind. Perhaps Rhaegar thought it was his 'son and heir' who would be the PtwP. And it was only after baby Aegon was murdered that Lyanna realized that Jon, as Rhaegar's (current) son and heir, was meant to be the PtwP. Just something I've been kicking around, which I briefly discuss here.

About the comparison of linguistic similarities/parallels that included descriptions of Aegon that were equally applicable to Jon:

The little princess had been barefoot, still dressed in her bed gown, and the boy ... the boy ...

If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him ...

With a little bonus of Ned's omissions and well placed ellipses lol

[Lord Varys]

I really think we have no textual basis to assume that any feelings Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had for each other only developed after Harrenhal (or during/after the abduction). For me, this makes little sense. Both Lyanna and Rhaegar were clearly never truly in love during their whole life up until that point, and both were still young enough to be governed by their emotions/hormones.

Lyanna's lines about love sound mature, but the hidden meaning is that she does not know (yet) what love actually means.

I'm also less inclined to believe that Rhaegar's feelings were one-sided - the thought of the Tower of Joy being Rhaegar's secret lair where he lived his sexual fantasies has a certain allure (at least for Robert), but this would be strikingly at odds with a lot of the other clues (most importantly, Ned's undying respect for Arthur Dayne, who would in this scenario be nothing but an accomplice of Rhaegar the Rapist).

If Lyanna was a grown-up version of Arya - and Arya who did not undergo a training to rule her emotions - she would be a very hot-blooded young woman (and we see this when she scolds the squires, and in the vision where she fights with Benjen), and I'd not be surprised in the slightest if it turned out that she was as responsible for the whole abduction thing as Rhaegar.

Rhaegar is supposed to be a melancholic prince. That is, he would be by far not as active as Lyanna, who really has more than a drop of this Stark wolf blood. In that sense, Lyanna could be the driving force behind the abduction, not so much Rhaegar (if we assume that they exchanged letters after Harrenhal).

[stateofdissipation]

I really think we have no textual basis to assume that any feelings Rhaegar and Lyanna may have had for each other only developed after Harrenhal (or during/after the abduction). For me, this makes little sense. Both Lyanna and Rhaegar were clearly never truly in love during their whole life up until that point, and both were still young enough to be governed by their emotions/hormones.

Lyanna's lines about love sound mature, but the hidden meaning is that she does not know (yet) what love actually means.

I'm also less inclined to believe that Rhaegar's feelings were one-sided - the thought of the Tower of Joy being Rhaegar's secret lair where he lived his sexual fantasies has a certain allure (at least for Robert), but this would be strikingly at odds with a lot of the other clues (most importantly, Ned's undying respect for Arthur Dayne, who would in this scenario be nothing but an accomplice of Rhaegar the Rapist).

If Lyanna was a grown-up version of Arya - and Arya who did not undergo a training to rule her emotions - she would be a very hot-blooded young woman (and we see this when she scolds the squires, and in the vision where she fights with Benjen), and I'd not be surprised in the slightest if it turned out that she was as responsible for the whole abduction thing as Rhaegar.

Rhaegar is supposed to be a melancholic prince. That is, he would be by far not as active as Lyanna, who really has more than a drop of this Stark wolf blood. In that sense, Lyanna could be the driving force behind the abduction, not so much Rhaegar (if we assume that they exchanged letters after Harrenhal).

I would have to say that I agree with your conclusion: Lyanna went willingly.

I'm also less inclined to believe that Rhaegar's feelings were one-sided - the thought of the Tower of Joy being Rhaegar's secret lair where he lived his sexual fantasies has a certain allure (at least for Robert), but this would be strikingly at odds with a lot of the other clues (most importantly, Ned's undying respect for Arthur Dayne, who would in this scenario be nothing but an accomplice of Rhaegar the Rapist).

Ned's undying respect comes from:

The showdown dream Chapter 39

and

A memory/dream from the balck cells:

Brandon fell to him(Rhaegar), and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Arthur Dayne, the Sword of morning --aGoT page 608 paperback

and

Bran's memory of a story about kinghts that Ned had told him:

"The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star, They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed." Father had gotten sad then , and he would say no more,---aCoK page 332

in this scenario be nothing but an accomplice of Rhaegar the Rapist the mad king.

"As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.' That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree."--Jamie Lannister-aCoK chapter 55

[Attitude]

I would have to say that I agree with your conclusion: Lyanna went willingly.

Yep, just like you said, if she didn't, Ned woud've thought something like: Arthur Dayne, the kingsguard who allowd prince Rhaegar to rape my sister.

Well, probably not exactly that, but for sure he wouldn't remember him as 'The finest knight he ever saw."

[FittleLinger]

Yep, just like you said, if she didn't, Ned woud've thought something like: Arthur Dayne, the kingsguard who allowd prince Rhaegar to rape my sister.

Well, probably not exactly that, but for sure he wouldn't remember him as 'The finest knight he ever saw."

Also, he despises Tywin Lannister and even Robert for the murder of the Targ children, who are not related to him, while he doesn't have an ill thought on Rhaegar, the guy who kidnapped and raped his sister, and even thinks rather highly of him as a man who wouldn't frequent brothels. Ned clearly doesn't think Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, it's absolutely in the text.

[stateofdissipation]

Yep, just like you said, if she didn't, Ned woud've thought something like: Arthur Dayne, the kingsguard who allowd prince Rhaegar to rape my sister.

Well, probably not exactly that, but for sure he wouldn't remember him as 'The finest knight he ever saw."

The kingsguard and Aerys did murder his brother and father. I don't think crossing the rape my sister line is after that one.

A year before the ToJ it was the splendid Arthur Dayne.

We know Hightower and Jamie presided over the roasting of Rickard but he never thinks ill of them for that. Everything Ned remembers, says, or dreams about the kingsguard at the tower of joy covers two pages... including dialog. All the gushing about Dayne amounts to two words: "finest"-aCoK and "splendid"-aGoT

It's not like we have an in depth analysis of Dayne's character..... the terms can apply to his martial abilities alone.

Also, he despises Tywin Lannister and even Robert for the murder of the Targ children, who are not related to him, while he doesn't have an ill thought on Rhaegar, the guy who kidnapped and raped his sister, and even thinks rather highly of him as a man who wouldn't frequent brothels. Ned clearly doesn't think Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, it's absolutely in the text.

Tywin betrayed the king as well as murdering the children. All that gets muddled together. He condemns Jamie for breaking his vow to protect Aerys, though Aerys murdered Rickard. Ned does not have too many bad thoughts for anybody.

Ned's thinking highly = he did not think Rhaegar frequented brothels.

Now, your Ned thinking that Lyanna not being kidnapped and raped being in the text is pretty shaky. Ned also does not have a bad thought about Lyanna. If she ran off, she was responsible for the deaths of her brother and father. If she had just left a freaking note, Ned would be happily up at the wall and Brandon would be lord of Winterfell.

It is ambiguous at best.

[FittleLinger]

The kingsguard and Aerys did murder his brother and father. I don't think crossing the rape my sister line is after that one.

A year before the ToJ it was the splendid Arthur Dayne.

We know Hightower and Jamie presided over the roasting of Rickard but he never thinks ill of them for that. Everything Ned remembers, says, or dreams about the kingsguard at the tower of joy covers two pages... including dialog. All the gushing about Dayne amounts to two words: "finest"-aCoK and "splendid"-aGoT

It's not like we have an in depth analysis of Dayne's character..... the terms can apply to his martial abilities alone.

Tywin betrayed the king as well as murdering the children. All that gets muddled together. He condemns Jamie for breaking his vow to protect Aerys, though Aerys murdered Rickard. Ned does not have too many bad thoughts for anybody.

Ned's thinking highly = he did not think Rhaegar frequented brothels.

Now, your Ned thinking that Lyanna not being kidnapped and raped being in the text is pretty shaky. Ned also does not have a bad thought about Lyanna. If she ran off, she was responsible for the deaths of her brother and father. If she had just left a freaking note, Ned would be happily up at the wall and Brandon would be lord of Winterfell.

It is ambiguous at best.

Ned puts some responsibility on her - "Her wolf blood led her to an early grave". Why would he think that if he thinks that she was taken at swordpoint against her will by a psycho-rapist prince?

[Attitude]

Also, he despises Tywin Lannister and even Robert for the murder of the Targ children, who are not related to him, while he doesn't have an ill thought on Rhaegar, the guy who kidnapped and raped his sister, and even thinks rather highly of him as a man who wouldn't frequent brothels. Ned clearly doesn't think Lyanna was kidnapped and raped, it's absolutely in the text.

I agree, else that would've crossed his mind.

The kingsguard and Aerys did murder his brother and father. I don't think crossing the rape my sister line is after that one.

A year before the ToJ it was the splendid Arthur Dayne.

We know Hightower and Jamie presided over the roasting of Rickard but he never thinks ill of them for that. Everything Ned remembers, says, or dreams about the kingsguard at the tower of joy covers two pages... including dialog. All the gushing about Dayne amounts to two words: "finest"-aCoK and "splendid"-aGoT

It's not like we have an in depth analysis of Dayne's character..... the terms can apply to his martial abilities alone.

Iirc Ned talks to his kids about being a Knight. And being a knight isn't just being good at battles, but much more. Especially for Ned, it means a lot more. He is a real man of honor. Calling Dayne the finest knight he has ever seen isn't just about his marial abilities, I am sure of that.

[sj4iy]

I think the 'textual basis' for Lyanna going willingly is the fact that Ned never ONCE thinks badly of Rhaegar. If the man had really kidnapped and raped his sister, we would have known it through Ned's thoughts...but we don't. If he's not cursing Rhaegar's name like Robert, then it's because he knows that it was consensual.

[BearQueen87]

I think the 'textual basis' for Lyanna going willingly is the fact that Ned never ONCE thinks badly of Rhaegar. If the man had really kidnapped and raped his sister, we would have known it through Ned's thoughts...but we don't. If he's not cursing Rhaegar's name like Robert, then it's because he knows that it was consensual.

Absolutely. She went willingly. It's just a matter of why she went willingly; either she was already in love with Rhaegar or she saw this as an opportunity to get away from Robert and love came later