R+L=J v.92

[Attitude]

It's an indirect way for GRRM to tell us about R&L.

Is it? Or do you assume it is? I know GRRM doesn't often give information that is irrelevant, but what does it matter wether they were allowed to married or not? It doesn't say anything about the entire Rhaegar + Lyanna story. If you assume that Rhaeger HAD to have permission to marry Lyanna, then I can state:

Aerys was mad, so who knows what he said. Maybe he said: "Yeah screw Elia and the Martels, (Which I don't trust) go marry and f*ck a Stark and make a song of ice and fire!"

[J. Stargaryen]

Is it? Or do you assume it is? I know GRRM doesn't often give information that is irrelevant, but what does it matter wether they were allowed to married or not? It doesn't say anything about the entire Rhaegar + Lyanna story. If you assume that Rhaeger HAD to have permission to marry Lyanna, then I can state:

Aerys was mad, so who knows what he said. Maybe he said: "Yeah screw Elia and the Martels, (Which I don't trust) go marry and f*ck a Stark and make a song of ice and fire!"

Obviously I'm assuming it is.

It provides a motive for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna in secret, rather than asking for permission. As sj4iy said: better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission.

I don't assume that Rhaegar had to have permission. In fact, I'm really implying the opposite. To be clear, what I'm saying is that these historical events, which the "bookish to a fault" Rhaegar would have known about, provide a motive for him to marry in secret, without asking for permission. Because if he had asked for permission, he might have been denied, as Daemon and/or Rhaenyra were.

[Attitude]

Obviously I'm assuming it is.

It provides a motive for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna in secret, rather than asking for permission. As sj4iy said: better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission.

I don't assume that Rhaegar had to have permission. In fact, I'm really implying the opposite. To be clear, what I'm saying is that these historical events, which the "bookish to a fault" Rhaegar would have known about, provide a motive for him to marry in secret, without asking for permission. Because if he had asked for permission, he might have been denied, as Daemon and/or Rhaenyra were.

When I ask my parents if I can do something, and they say: "no, you can't" does that make it impossible for me to do? No, it does not.

So wether he (first) asked for permission or not, he could've always decided to marry in secret. Yes, doing it in secret after Aerys denied it will make it worse, but Aerys word won't make it impossible. So I still don't get the significance. Aerys giving permission or not doesn't change the outcome. They will marry if they want to.

I don't agree with sj4iy on that point. I read it, but I personally would prefer to ask permission then forgiveness. If permission is given, there is no problem. If you have to ask for forgiveness, there is a problem which might've been avoided. (This is in general, maybe in this case it would be better to ask forgiveness).

[J. Stargaryen]

When I ask my parents if I can do something, and they say: "no, you can't" does that make it impossible for me to do? No, it does not.

So wether he (first) asked for permission or not, he could've always decided to marry in secret. Yes, doing it in secret after Aerys denied it will make it worse, but Aerys word won't make it impossible. So I still don't get the significance. Aerys giving permission or not doesn't change the outcome. They will marry if they want to.

I don't agree with sj4iy on that point. I read it, but I personally would prefer to ask permission then forgiveness. If permission is given, there is no problem. If you have to ask for forgiveness, there is a problem which might've been avoided. (This is in general, maybe in this case it would be better to ask forgiveness).

If Rhaegar asked for permission and was denied, then there would be a very strong legal case against a marriage ever being valid. The king said it couldn't happen = the law. Also, in that case he would have openly defied his father's (the king's) wishes. That's treason. Aerys would've had just cause for disinheriting him or worse.

It is. Because Rhaegar probably didn't want to, or felt he couldn't, risk his father saying no.

[Attitude]

If Rhaegar asked for permission and was denied, then there would be a very strong legal case against a marriage ever being valid. The king said it couldn't happen = the law. Also, in that case he would have openly defied his father's (the king's) wishes. That's treason. Aerys would've had just cause for disinheriting him or worse.

It is. Because Rhaegar probably didn't want to, or felt he couldn't, risk his father saying no.

So the marriage between Daemon and Rhaenyra is only 'relevant' to determine wether Rhaegar (most likely) asked/had permission of Aerys.

Does it change the fact that they were or weren't married (whichever is the case): No

Does it change the fact wether Jon would be legit or not: No (this depends on the choice whether Rhaeger would marry Lyanna or not. This has nothing to do with permission, if he wanted to marry her in secrecy then he just would.)

I don't want to be an asshole, but the discussion is pointless IMO. It doesn't change anything. It can merely tell us if Aerys was informed about the marriage.

[J. Stargaryen]

So the marriage between Daemon and Rhaenyra is only 'relevant' to determine wether Rhaegar (most likely) asked/had permission of Aerys.

Does it change the fact that they were or weren't married (whichever is the case): No

Does it change the fact wether Jon would be legit or not: No (this depends on the choice whether Rhaeger would marry Lyanna or not. This has nothing to do with permission, if he wanted to marry her in secrecy then he just would.)

I don't want to be an asshole, but the discussion is pointless IMO. It doesn't change anything. It can merely tell us if Aerys was informed about the marriage.

I never said the bold.

Your inability to understand the significance of the discussion does not make it pointless. Again, this historical account would have provided Rhaegar with a motive to forgo asking Aerys for permission, hence the running away and marrying in secret. If you can't grasp that concept, I can't help you.

[Attitude]

I never said the bold.

Your inability to understand the significance of the discussion does not make it pointless. Again, this historical account would have provided Rhaegar with a motive to forgo asking Aerys for permission, hence the running away and marrying in secret. If you can't grasp that concept, I can't help you.

So this is an explantion to the running away part... (maybe I just read to little). That does makes sense then. But it could also be explained as; Aerys didn't gave him permission to abduct / take Lyanna, so that's the reason he went to the ToJ.

Anyway, it could be an explanation to this event and it does make the entire story more likely. Thanks for the explanation.

[sj4iy]

So this is an explantion to the running away part... (maybe I just read to little). That does makes sense then. But it could also be explained as; Aerys didn't gave him permission to abduct / take Lyanna, so that's the reason he went to the ToJ.

Anyway, it could be an explanation to this event and it does make the entire story more likely. Thanks for the explanation.

The problem with that statement is that if Rhaegar asked and was denied, he was committing nothing less than treason by doing it anyway. There's no indication if this, nor of Aerys' knowledge of the plan, so realty the best explanation that we have as of right now with the information we have is that Rhaegar never asked permission and ran off with Lyanna instead. If you thought that your actions would save the world, but knew that others would disapprove, would you risk it? I wouldn't, if I truly believed this had to happen to save humanity.

[UnmaskedLurker]

So the marriage between Daemon and Rhaenyra is only 'relevant' to determine wether Rhaegar (most likely) asked/had permission of Aerys.

Does it change the fact that they were or weren't married (whichever is the case): No

Does it change the fact wether Jon would be legit or not: No (this depends on the choice whether Rhaeger would marry Lyanna or not. This has nothing to do with permission, if he wanted to marry her in secrecy then he just would.)

I don't want to be an asshole, but the discussion is pointless IMO. It doesn't change anything. It can merely tell us if Aerys was informed about the marriage.

I know that J.S. has tried to explain the significance of the Daemon/Rhaenyra story with limited success, so I will give it a try. It basically is the point of all of these discussions in which we, the readers, try to deduce what is really happening in the series. We look for clues. GRRM drops clues everywhere, including the Novellas (which makes it harder for series only readers to figure things out--but tough luck for them--they'll find out eventually). So the point of the Daemon/Rhaenyra story is that we see a precedence of what has happened in the past--how a child of the king wanted to get married and had to do it in secret because the child could not get permission of the king.

The attentive reader should realize, well, this situation has somewhat of a parallel to Rhaegar/Lyanna. And Rhaegar likely knew of that Targ history. So the reader can conclude that Rhaegar took that historical precedence--believing that it was highly unlikely that Aerys would give permission, and decided he had to marry Lyanna in secret. So the Daemon/Rhaenyra story gives clues to the reader that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married (not just "shacking up") and why they would get married in secret. I also believe that Rhaegar intended to take the added precaution of only revealing the marriage after there was a child to bring back to KL. He would do this for two reasons: (1) he needed to make sure TPTWP was born (as Rhaegar was obsessed with prophesy would would not want to risk Aerys keeping R&L apart before the baby can be conceived and born) and (2) bringing back a baby would likely make it harder for Aerys to object to the marriage.

[Attitude]

The problem with that statement is that if Rhaegar asked and was denied, he was committing nothing less than treason by doing it anyway. There's no indication if this, nor of Aerys' knowledge of the plan, so realty the best explanation that we have as of right now with the information we have is that Rhaegar never asked permission and ran off with Lyanna instead. If you thought that your actions would save the world, but knew that others would disapprove, would you risk it? I wouldn't, if I truly believed this had to happen to save humanity.

Yes, but what my statement was, is that no matter what, if he really wanted too, he would get married, without asking or with asking and being denied. It would only be worse maybe.

Anyhow, it's clear now.

Would be ironic if he turns out to be as crazy as his father and that tptwp turns out to be Dany and Rhaegars ideas were bullshit... All that trouble...

[BearQueen87]

Would be ironic if he turns out to be as crazy as his father and that tptwp turns out to be Dany and Rhaegars ideas were bullshit... All that trouble...

I personally don't see that happening; Rhaegar seems perfectly sane.

[Attitude]

I personally don't see that happening; Rhaegar seems perfectly sane.

Me neither, was just a spin of my mind.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes, but what my statement was, is that no matter what, if he really wanted too, he would get married, without asking or with asking and being denied. It would only be worse maybe.

I think the point is that Rhaegar would not want to risk being denied--and he likely thought that risk was very high if he requested permission. So running off with Lyanna and marrying her in secret and having a baby in secret was really the only realistic option available under the circumstances. And by the way, even if Dany is TPTWP (although I think it almost certainly is Jon), Jon could still be one of the heads of the dragon, so Rhaegar's actions still could have been important for the prophesy.

[Attitude]

I think the point is that Rhaegar would not want to risk being denied--and he likely thought that risk was very high if he requested permission. So running off with Lyanna and marrying her in secret and having a baby in secret was really the only realistic option available under the circumstances. And by the way, even if Dany is TPTWP (although I think it almost certainly is Jon), Jon could still be one of the heads of the dragon, so Rhaegar's actions still could have been important for the prophesy.

Depends (the last part). Assuming tptwp = azor ahai = the one who will defeat the WW, I think that is the most significant.

However, what is there stated about the 'dragon with three heads' ? Is it to defeat the WW or to conquer westeros?

[sj4iy]

Depends (the last part). Assuming tptwp = azor ahai = the one who will defeat the WW, I think that is the most significant.

However, what is there stated about the 'dragon with three heads' ? Is it to defeat the WW or to conquer westeros?

Rhaegar mentions that the dragon needs three heads in the HotU vision where he is talking to Elia about Aegon.

[BearQueen87]

Rhaegar mentions that the dragon needs three heads in the HotU vision where he is talking to Elia about Aegon.

Aemon mentions it too in Feast.

The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them."

Whatever the three headed dragon means, Aemon seems to have interpreted it positively if he thought he might be one of them. Of course that could just be because he's a Targaryen.

[Attitude]

Rhaegar mentions that the dragon needs three heads in the HotU vision where he is talking to Elia about Aegon.

Yeah, so my statement: There have to be three heads to conquer / control westeros (again), but only tptwp is important for the fight against the WW. Nothing clearly states that this dragon with three heads is very important, however tptwp is very similar to azor ahai = defeater of the WW.

(I think saving westeros from the WW is a bit more imporant then conquering it)

Anyway, reading the prophecy again, I just have to admit that Aegon still being legit might be true. (almost) Everyone on this forum accepts that Rhaegars prophecy should be forfilled, but nobody believes that Aegon = tptwp. (nor that he is still alive). In that case Jon would make the third head, and thats everything that is important about the entire ToJ thing.

[Lord Varys]

It's very unlikely that Rhaegar could have convinced/forced his father, the court/Faith, and the Lords to accept his marriage with Lyanna, due to the stressed relationship between Rhaegar and Aerys around the time of Harrenhal. Aerys could have easily used this break of trust as a means to disinherit and/or arrest Rhaegar.

The three dragon heads from the prophecy have nothing to do with the Targaryen banner (Jorah's misinterpretation), or with the reconquest of Westeros. The Targaryen readers of the prophecy (Aemon, Rhaegar) didn't think that the Targaryens would not control Westeros when the promised prince was born, so it's very unlikely that some sections of the prophecy refer to a reconquest of Westeros.

Royal permission is not needed for a marriage, but if the head of your house does not approve of your choice of (second) bride, he can disinherit you and/or punish you for your disobedience.

[BearQueen87]

The three dragon heads from the prophecy have nothing to do with the Targaryen banner (Jorah's misinterpretation), or with the reconquest of Westeros. The Targaryen readers of the prophecy (Aemon, Rhaegar) didn't think that the Targaryens would not control Westeros when the promised prince was born, so it's very unlikely that some sections of the prophecy refer to a reconquest of Westeros.

I agree with this. I think the 3-headed dragon has something to do with the overall prophecy of TPTWP, not anything to do with Targaryen reconquest. IMO, Rhaegar thought that he would sire TPTWP but that all three of his children would play a role in the coming War for the Dawn.

[Attitude]

It's very unlikely that Rhaegar could have convinced/forced his father, the court/Faith, and the Lords to accept his marriage with Lyanna, due to the stressed relationship between Rhaegar and Aerys around the time of Harrenhal. Aerys could have easily used this break of trust as a means to disinherit and/or arrest Rhaegar.

The three dragon heads from the prophecy have nothing to do with the Targaryen banner (Jorah's misinterpretation), or with the reconquest of Westeros. The Targaryen readers of the prophecy (Aemon, Rhaegar) didn't think that the Targaryens would not control Westeros when the promised prince was born, so it's very unlikely that some sections of the prophecy refer to a reconquest of Westeros.

Royal permission is not needed for a marriage, but if the head of your house does not approve of your choice of (second) bride, he can disinherit you and/or punish you for your disobedience.

Then what does it has to do with? With the fight against the others? I don't see anything stating that, but then again, I don't see anything stating that it doesn't.