R+L=J v.92

[J. Stargaryen]

Solid post. For the last part though, he never asked for a polygamous relationship. He wanted a divorce and new marriage. right?

It doesn't say. But, considering that Daemon had already had his previous request for the marriage to be set aside denied, I think the possibility of a poly-marriage is meant to be an option.

[Alia of the knife]

:bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl: :bawl:

It's okay, My Bear. I can love you enough for everyone!!!!

;)

He doesn't deserve you Bear! Let im' go, he'll only tell you what you want to hear!

😁

[UnmaskedLurker]

Thank you for advice... I got that Aegon is not TPTWP the moment his skull was crashed.

That is not what I meant. What I meant is that when you make points like stating that Rhaegar must have believed that Aegon was TPTWP because otherwise the HotU vision is contradicted, you are not thinking like GRRM. He gives us that information as a clue, but we have to piece together with other clues what is really going on. The HotU vision only tells us what Rhaegar thought at a moment in time--not what he thought forever. Thinking like GRRM means taking that thought process into consideration and seeing what other clues are out there to determine what the real information from the HotU vision is that we should take. In this case, one thing we get is the name of the song for TPTWP--ASOIAF--the entire title of the series. Alarm bells should be going off that this speech is special and needs to be examined more closely--not at face value.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

It doesn't say. But, considering that Daemon had already had his previous request for the marriage to be set aside denied, I think the possibility of a poly-marriage is meant to be an option.

Do you think it was an option that wasn't used because the king also forbid it?

[mambru]

Damn, now I'm actually going to have to buy that whole damn book and read it to see exactly what Rogue Prince says beyond the synopses...

[J. Stargaryen]

Do you think it was an option that wasn't used because the king also forbid it?

I'm not sure I understand your question, or the point of it. Obviously Daemon and Rhaenyra couldn't (poly-)marry because the king denied them permission. Though, I don't believe the king would have granted Daemon permission to marry his daughter under any circumstances. In fact, when they finally did marry, it was in secret.

[BearQueen87]

He doesn't deserve you Bear! Let im' go, he'll only tell you what you want to hear!

:box: :fencing:

Damn, now I'm actually going to have to buy that whole damn book and read it to see exactly what Rogue Prince says beyond the synopses...

If you read it and decide that L and R did get married, do we get cookies or anything? ;)

[J. Stargaryen]

Regarding Daemon and Rhaenyra's marriage.

Yet hardly had Ser Otto arrived at the Red Keep to take up the Handship than word reached court that Princess Rhaenyra had remarried, taking to husband her uncle, Daemon Targaryen. The princess was twenty-three, Prince Daemon thirty-nine.

King, court, and commons were all outraged by the news. Neither Daemon’s wife nor Rhaenyra’s husband had been dead even half a year; to wed again so soon was an insult to their memory, His Grace declared angrily. The marriage had been performed on Dragonstone, suddenly and secretly. Septon Eustace claims that Rhaenyra knew that her father would never approve of the match, so she wed in haste to make certain he could not prevent the marriage. Mushroom puts forward a different reason: The princess was once again with child, and did not wish to birth a bastard.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

I'm not sure I understand your question, or the point of it. Obviously Daemon and Rhaenyra couldn't (poly-)marry because the king denied them permission. Though, I don't believe the king would have granted Daemon permission to marry his daughter under any circumstances. In fact, when they finally did marry, it was in secret.

Sorry, I was just looking for you to expand on your point a bit. Still haven't read the novellas.

[Alia of the knife]

:box: :fencing:

😇

[sj4iy]

Regarding Daemon and Rhaenyra's marriage.

Yet hardly had Ser Otto arrived at the Red Keep to take up the Handship than word reached court that Princess Rhaenyra had remarried, taking to husband her uncle, Daemon Targaryen. The princess was twenty-three, Prince Daemon thirty-nine.

King, court, and commons were all outraged by the news. Neither Daemons wife nor Rhaenyras husband had been dead even half a year; to wed again so soon was an insult to their memory, His Grace declared angrily. The marriage had been performed on Dragonstone, suddenly and secretly. Septon Eustace claims that Rhaenyra knew that her father would never approve of the match, so she wed in haste to make certain he could not prevent the marriage. Mushroom puts forward a different reason: The princess was once again with child, and did not wish to birth a bastard.

Basically, it comes down to one thing: better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission...looks like Rhaegar probably felt the same way.

[BearQueen87]

Basically, it comes down to one thing: better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission...looks like Rhaegar probably felt the same way.

And if Rhaegar was planning on quietly deposing Aerys then he needed neither permission nor forgiveness.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Basically, it comes down to one thing: better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission...looks like Rhaegar probably felt the same way.

Lol, too many times this logic as worked to my advantage in life. love it!

[J. Stargaryen]

Sorry, I was just looking you to expand on your point a bit. Still haven't read the novellas.

No worries. I was just confused by your question, since it seemed to answer itself.

Basically, it comes down to one thing: better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission...looks like Rhaegar probably felt the same way.

This. I definitely think that's what we're supposed to take away from this part of the story. Rhaegar was "bookish to a fault" and would have known about these events. So, there is your textual, canon motive for Rhaegar running off and marrying Lyanna in secret. Because the king could refuse such a request. But the king couldn't (necessarily?) undo a marriage once it was done, especially one involving the heir (Rhaenyra, Rhaegar).

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

No worries. I was just confused by your question, since it seemed to answer itself.

This. I definitely think that's what we're supposed to take away from this part of the story. Rhaegar was "bookish to a fault" and would have known about these events. So, there is your textual, canon motive for Rhaegar running off and marrying Lyanna in secret. Because the king could refuse such a request. But the king couldn't (necessarily?) undo a marriage once it was done, especially one involving the heir (Rhaenyra, Rhaegar).

I think Aerys would have known sooner or later on the marriage. Remember, there were little "birds" in the kingdom. I can understand if he did it in secret, he would not let his wife or his parents to know about the marriage. Of course, it was before or during the war he (Rhaegar) got married to Lyanna.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think Aerys would have known sooner or later on the marriage. Remember, there were little "birds" in the kingdom. I can understand if he did it in secret, he would not let his wife or his parents to know about the marriage. Of course, it was before or during the war he (Rhaegar) got married to Lyanna.

Obviously. :)

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

This thread highlights, if nothing else, that there are a ton of possible Targaryen plots in ASOIAF.

EDIT: IDK if it's funner to speculate that Aerys or Elia knew of Rhaegar's prophecy...

[corbon]

I am a total believer here, but it still bugs me that Lyanna's dad and brother rush off to defend her, end up getting killed horribly, a war starts, and Lyanna and Rhaegar and just...sitting around Dorne, having lots of baby-making sex? Does news really travel THAT slowly or are they totally isolated there or what? Just seems an odd reaction to me. I get that maybe by the time Lyanna learns of the deaths of her brother and father, maybe things are too far gone, but still. She has two other brothers to think about, not to mention all the other folks dying in this war. I guess I'll just have to wait for the day when GRRM explains it all.

Yes, and yes.

News does travel that slowly, unless you are on the raven netwrok, and they are not (its an abandoned watchower in the middle of nowhere and to be on the raven netwrok you must have an active rookery as the birds fly 'home' like homing pigeons). Its basically as fast as a rider, or ship, and only where riders and ships actually go.

Given that they were hiding in an abandoned watchtower in the middle of nowhere (border marches), probably from the King as much as the rebels, its very unlikely that any 'news' reached them.

More likely it reached their supply base (Starfall?) and a (secret?) messenger rode from there to pass them any news considered critical. Like the news of the Trident and the Sack.

Most likely the first news they got of Brandon's treason and his and Rockard's death was a considerable time later, probably well after the rebellion had already started, and its all too late to do anything then.

I would not be at all surprised if Hightower finding them (however he did, Starfall again?) was the first news they got about the rebellion and the events leading up to it.

Lyanna is a prime hostage? Like Brandon Stark? Like Lord Rickard Stark? If he had wanted Stark hostages he had two. Aerys seems interested in keeping his allies motivated by keeping their family members close. In general female hostages don't seem that valuable in asoiaf.

Note that when Aerys 'used up' his two potential hostages Rickard and Brandon, there was nothing to hostage against. There was no war, no rebellion, no hint of a rebellion even. There was public treachery and a penalty for it, and a trial by combat.

So Rockard and Brandon are not usable as example of a 'hostage situation'.

[Attitude]

Don't get me wrong here, but who cares about what Daemon and Rhaenyra did. The only thing that is important is wether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married or not. Permission of Rhaegar's father or not, they were married or they weren't right?

[J. Stargaryen]

Don't get me wrong here, but who cares about what Daemon and Rhaenyra did. The only thing that is important is wether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married or not. Permission of Rhaegar's father or not, they were married or they weren't right?

It's an indirect way for GRRM to tell us about R&L.