R+L=J v.92

[BearQueen87]

I agree, though others are more knowledgeable about that symbolism, I love that as well, but the thread hasn't dissolved into, and about Rhaegar specifically, or you love Rhaegar, or you hate Rhaegar and Lyanna was noble, or she was selfish, but its a little more nuanced.

I like everybody, including Elia. I think when we get Elia's perspective, finally, through weirnet or family or something, we're going to meet a really intelligent and focused individual who will blow everyone away with her awesomeness.

There is a sense, not necessarily in this thread but elsewhere, that if you support the idea of an R and L romance that you are either an idiotic romantic shipper or, apparently, a troll. I think the entire love story--between Elia, Rhaegar, and Lyanna--is a tragic one, and that's why it's compelling to me.

Lyanna: living in a world that doesn't allow her much freedom of choice over her own life, where she would be forced to marry a man she doesn't care for in order to satisfy her father's political ambitions. She decides not to kowtow to that, and it ends badly. (like everything else for everyone else)

Rhaegar: a bookish romantic prince who spends most of his time obsessed with trying to bring about a savior for the world only for the world to fall to pieces around him. He is trying for the greater good, falls in love and..it ends badly.

Elia: IMO, the silence about Elia is telling. We only know about Rhaegar and Lyanna's character because of recollections about them from outsiders (Ned, Meera Reed, Jamie...) but nothing about Elia. Not even when her brother Oberyn comes to KL do we hear anything about Elia's own personal feelings toward Lyanan or Rhaegar; and we know Elia was close to Oberyn. She and Rhaegar were, as Mladen said last night, a loveless partnership. I think they made a great political team (Oberyn being at Harrenhal might indicate R trying to secure Dorne before making a move against Aerys, and for that, he would need Elia's help) and I think Elia knew everything that was going on with Rhaegar, prophecy and Lyanna included. But she met one of the most tragic and worst ends we've read. She should get a ton of our sympathy because her death is merciless and cruel and horrifying. If there is a true victim in this tale, it might be Elia, but not because she's a spurned wife, which seems to be a majority opinion.

[Lord Varys]

On the time line:

We know Elia nearly died when she gave birth to Aegon. So it's very unlikely that she would have attended the tourney at Harrenhal in her weak/near-death-like state after the birth of Aegon.

Which seems to suggest that Elia was pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal, which in turn would mean that Rhaegar still believed that Aegon was the promised prince after he met Lyanna since then the scene Dany witnesses in the House of the Undying must take place after Harrenhal, but before the abduction of Elia. It would fit, Rhaegar began to believe that his child by Elia would be the promised prince in the night of his conception (the comet he saw - and he would have known that this was the night, because he and Elia most likely did not have sex all that often).

For him this interpretation was confirmed when Elia gave birth to a boy after Harrenhal, and he then decided that he would have to father another child, since the prophecy had come true.

If Aegon had already been born at Harrenhal, he must have been born months before the tourney (else Elia would not have been healthy enough to attend), which, in turn, would not make him an infant in 283 AC when he is killed.

Direct communication between Lyanna and Rhaegar is unlikely, but Oswell and Lord Whent could have served as go-betweens (Rhaegar sending letters to Harrenhal via raven, and Lord Whent handing them to her) - if Lyanna did indeed stay at Harrenhal after the end of the tourney. If not, it would have been much more difficult for them to remain in contact.

[yolkboy]

Ragnarok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNTSoizcvME

Love the Ragnorak song Alia!

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

They had time to communicate with ravens back and forth with each other. It's Westeros way of text messaging.

I always thought tPtwP was different from the dragon has three heads prophecy.

[Alia of the knife]

Speaking of Bloodraven, I took if for granted that he is on the "good" side of things and Mel not so much, but this one quote of his disturbs me"

"The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mothers milk.

Darkness will make you strong."

I hope that it doesn't set Bran up to be against Jon, though BR presence and his being a Targaryen loyalist, fighting for his true born brother would suggest the would fight for Jon, but that statement makes me nervous.

On the time line:

We know Elia nearly died when she gave birth to Aegon. So it's very unlikely that she would have attended the tourney at Harrenhal in her weak/near-death-like state after the birth of Aegon.

Which seems to suggest that Elia was pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal, which in turn would mean that Rhaegar still believed that Aegon was the promised prince after he met Lyanna since then the scene Dany witnesses in the House of the Undying must take place after Harrenhal, but before the abduction of Lyanna. It would fit, Rhaegar began to believe that his child by Elia would be the promised prince in the night of his conception (the comet he saw - and he would have known that this was the night, because he and Elia most likely did not have sex all that often).

For him this interpretation was confirmed when Elia gave birth to a boy after Harrenhal, and he then decided that he would have to father another child, since the prophecy had come true.

If Aegon had already been born at Harrenhal, he must have been born months before the tourney (else Elia would not have been healthy enough to attend), which, in turn, would not make him an infant in 283 AC when he is killed.

I think its possible Elia was in the early stages of pregnancy at Harrenhal, and didn't know. But, at the time of Harrenhal, Rhaegar would have been unaware that he would not have anymore children by Elia.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I like everybody, including Elia. I think when we get Elia's perspective, finally, through weirnet or family or something, we're going to meet a really intelligent and focused individual who will blow everyone away with her awesomeness.

There is a sense, not necessarily in this thread but elsewhere, that if you support the idea of an R and L romance that you are either an idiotic romantic shipper or, apparently, a troll. I think the entire love story--between Elia, Rhaegar, and Lyanna--is a tragic one, and that's why it's compelling to me.

Lyanna: living in a world that doesn't allow her much freedom of choice over her own life, where she would be forced to marry a man she doesn't care for in order to satisfy her father's political ambitions. She decides not to kowtow to that, and it ends badly. (like everything else for everyone else)

Rhaegar: a bookish romantic prince who spends most of his time obsessed with trying to bring about a savior for the world only for the world to fall to pieces around him. He is trying for the greater good, falls in love and..it ends badly.

Elia: IMO, the silence about Elia is telling. We only know about Rhaegar and Lyanna's character because of recollections about them from outsiders (Ned, Meera Reed, Jamie...) but nothing about Elia. Not even when her brother Oberyn comes to KL do we hear anything about Elia's own personal feelings toward Lyanan or Rhaegar; and we know Elia was close to Oberyn. She and Rhaegar were, as Mladen said last night, a loveless partnership. I think they made a great political team (Oberyn being at Harrenhal might indicate R trying to secure Dorne before making a move against Aerys, and for that, he would need Elia's help) and I think Elia knew everything that was going on with Rhaegar, prophecy and Lyanna included. But she met one of the most tragic and worst ends we've read. She should get a ton of our sympathy because her death is merciless and cruel and horrifying. If there is a true victim in this tale, it might be Elia, but not because she's a spurned wife, which seems to be a majority opinion.

I have liked many, probably most, of your posts--but I think this one is my favorite. Very well said.

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

Speaking of Bloodraven, I took if for granted that he is on the "good" side of things and Mel not so much, but this one quote of his disturbs me"

"The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mothers milk.

Darkness will make you strong."

I hope that it doesn't set Bran up to be against Jon, though BR presence and his being a Targaryen loyalist, fighting for his true born brother would suggest the would fight for Jon, but that statement makes me nervous.

I think its possible Elia was in the early stages of pregnancy at Harrenhal, and didn't know. But, at the time of Harrenhal, Rhaegar would have been unaware that he would not have anymore children by Elia.

Most likely, if she was pregnant again.

They would have done the naughty weeks before she got pregnant.

[Ygrain]

On the time line:

We know Elia nearly died when she gave birth to Aegon. So it's very unlikely that she would have attended the tourney at Harrenhal in her weak/near-death-like state after the birth of Aegon.

Which seems to suggest that Elia was pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal, which in turn would mean that Rhaegar still believed that Aegon was the promised prince after he met Lyanna since then the scene Dany witnesses in the House of the Undying must take place after Harrenhal, but before the abduction of Elia. It would fit, Rhaegar began to believe that his child by Elia would be the promised prince in the night of his conception (the comet he saw - and he would have known that this was the night, because he and Elia most likely did not have sex all that often).

For him this interpretation was confirmed when Elia gave birth to a boy after Harrenhal, and he then decided that he would have to father another child, since the prophecy had come true.

If Aegon had already been born at Harrenhal, he must have been born months before the tourney (else Elia would not have been healthy enough to attend), which, in turn, would not make him an infant in 283 AC when he is killed.

Direct communication between Lyanna and Rhaegar is unlikely, but Oswell and Lord Whent could have served as go-betweens (Rhaegar sending letters to Harrenhal via raven, and Lord Whent handing them to her) - if Lyanna did indeed stay at Harrenhal after the end of the tourney. If not, it would have been much more difficult for them to remain in contact.

Per GRRM, there is a year between the tourney (281) and the abduction (282), and the Rebellion last for about another year. At the time of the Sack (283), Aegon is about a year old.

[Ser Creighton]

Just wondering why so many R+L=j fans try to ignore the evidence in the books about Dany. It's to in your face, it can't be her it's to obvious. Yet if Dany is not TPTWP then Martin did this.

Gave her the perfect birth place. Dragonstone salt and smoke no question and even a stone dragon metaphor.

Her Dreams one of which includes battling the Others.

The Red Comet aka the red bleeding star.

She woke the Dragons from stone.

The Dothraki Dragon Prophecy fits Dany better than anyone and has all the symbolism for it going back to the very beginning of the story.

Martin called the act a miracle.

Yet she can't be the Prince because it seems so obvious. Which I understand and agree with. Though he has made us wait 20 years for her to get to Westeros and the wait is not over. But the thing is now he would have to write that none of that matters. Now Jon sort of has a more obscure version of the Azor Ahai prophecy which looks like it is going in motion, it's closer to the Lightbringer story. Dany had the red bleeding Jon has when the Stars bleed.

But it would be rather difficult for Martin to take all the evidence for Dany which is substantial and say oh it was just a coincidence. That not really good writing either. Jon has not been having Dragon dreams but he did dream about a sword.

Evidence from both Aemon and Rhaegar supports 3 people.

Rhaegar thought it was him, and then he thought it was his son Aegon. But thought their must be another, doesn't really go into guy or girl, it says another. Rhaegar had Aegon after he met Lyanna, Rhaegar new Elia could not have children. After this he vanishes with Lyanna, so what are people really hoping to avoid? Is there any evidence that he just gave up on the prophecy? As late as Aegon' birth he was still concerned with it.

Now why would they think the Dragon needs 3 heads is a really good question? The Targayen sigil created buy Aegon I, seems unlikely I doubt it is in any prophecy from 5000 years ago.

If it's all about Jon then Dany' story would actually appear pointless to the overall arc, and if it's all about Dany Jon would seem to be pointless. But mart plays with one theme in his book, "why can't it be both?" Instead of all this it has to be one or the other, I also say "why can''t it be both?"

Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna because of a prophecy. Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna because he loved her. Why does it have to be one or the other? Nothing really complex about it being one or the other, but if it's both it's a more complex story.

You know in the old stories it takes a sun and a moon to wake the dragons. Now there are Dragons and there are dragons.

I also think some people really want to avoid the third head more than anything, because there seems to be a number 1 contender for that spot.

Also what did actually persuade Rhaegar to think he was not TPTWP? A comet? Or a person? People really should of talked to Aemon more, we never got much on him about Bloodraven who he came to the wall with and served with. Also the fact that Aemon tended to the Ravens and you have Mormonts special Raven. Wonder who that used to belong too? But also maybe a little insight into when he let and or vanished and why? Never talked about Rhaegar and the prophecy enough. If he believed in it maybe the boys in black like Jon or Sam could of gotten a little story time. Doesn't ever mention Lyanna even thought Jon is a Stark, and we have Ned. You also had Benjen at the wall with Aemon of course he is gone. Jon never even thinks hey Rhaegar is the guy that kidnapped my Aunt, what the hell was that about old dude?

Anyway that's all I got. Well not really but I am not giving away those details yet. Later kiddies Nuncle Creighton is going to go get 18 holes in before it rains, and then eat a bacon cheeseburger cause it's off day and off day is happy day.

[BearQueen87]

Speaking of Bloodraven, I took if for granted that he is on the "good" side of things and Mel not so much, but this one quote of his disturbs me"

"The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mothers milk.

Darkness will make you strong."

I hope that it doesn't set Bran up to be against Jon, though BR presence and his being a Targaryen loyalist, fighting for his true born brother would suggest the would fight for Jon, but that statement makes me nervous.

(believes that Bran will be on the other side of the War when it comes....) Something to be said about reader's emotional conflict watching two beloved characters on opposite sides, fighting each other. Especially when they are brothers. :(

I have liked many, probably most, of your posts--but I think this one is my favorite. Very well said.

:cheers:

[Jon_Samwell_Snow]

If Jon gets out his current situation....just saying.

[Alia of the knife]

Love the Ragnorak song Alia!

Its called "Iwar," by a group called "Wardruna," and they do much of the soundtrack for the History channels "Vikings." along with Fever Ray, "If I had a Heart."

"Iwar" is on their "Yggdrasil" piece.

Another good one is: "Helvegen"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0PvZGVPiJU

:D

[UnmaskedLurker]

Just wondering why so many R+L=j fans try to ignore the evidence in the books about Dany. It's to in your face, it can't be her it's to obvious. Yet if Dany is not TPTWP then Martin did this.

Gave her the perfect birth place. Dragonstone salt and smoke no question and even a stone dragon metaphor.

Her Dreams one of which includes battling the Others.

The Red Comet aka the red bleeding star.

She woke the Dragons from stone.

The Dothraki Dragon Prophecy fits Dany better than anyone and has all the symbolism for it going back to the very beginning of the story.

Martin called the act a miracle.

Yet she can't be the Prince because it seems so obvious. Which I understand and agree with. Though he has made us wait 20 years for her to get to Westeros and the wait is not over. But the thing is now he would have to write that none of that matters. Now Jon sort of has a more obscure version of the Azor Ahai prophecy which looks like it is going in motion, it's closer to the Lightbringer story. Dany had the red bleeding Jon has when the Stars bleed.

But it would be rather difficult for Martin to take all the evidence for Dany which is substantial and say oh it was just a coincidence. That not really good writing either. Jon has not been having Dragon dreams but he did dream about a sword.

Evidence from both Aemon and Rhaegar supports 3 people.

Rhaegar thought it was him, and then he thought it was his son Aegon. But thought their must be another, doesn't really go into guy or girl, it says another. Rhaegar had Aegon after he met Lyanna, Rhaegar new Elia could not have children. After this he vanishes with Lyanna, so what are people really hoping to avoid? Is there any evidence that he just gave up on the prophecy? As late as Aegon' birth he was still concerned with it.

Now why would they think the Dragon needs 3 heads is a really good question? The Targayen sigil created buy Aegon I, seems unlikely I doubt it is in any prophecy from 5000 years ago.

If it's all about Jon then Dany' story would actually appear pointless to the overall arc, and if it's all about Dany Jon would seem to be pointless. But mart plays with one theme in his book, "why can't it be both?" Instead of all this it has to be one or the other, I also say "why can''t it be both?"

I will just address this part of your post. The point is not that Dany is too obvious. The point is that Aemon states it explicitly, and when something that important is stated that explicitly, it is almost never true.

Rhaegar remained obsessed with the prophesy, which is why he went off with Lyanna after his wife could no longer have children. He needed the third head of the dragon and--once he realized that L was ice to his fire, I believe he changed his mind and concluded that his son with L -- and not Aegon -- would be TPTWP.

Perhaps both Jon and Dany qualify separately as TPTWP, but while possible, I doubt it. I think Dany is one of the 3 heads of the dragon and therefore very important to winning the Battle for the Dawn. But Jon is TPTWP.

[Ygrain]

I will just address this part of your post. The point is not that Dany is too obvious. The point is that Aemon states it explicitly, and when something that important is stated that explicitly, it is almost never true.

Rhaegar remained obsessed with the prophesy, which is why he went off with Lyanna after his wife could no longer have children. He needed the third head of the dragon and--once he realized that L was ice to his fire, I believe he changed his mind and concluded that his son with L -- and not Aegon -- would be TPTWP.

Perhaps both Jon and Dany qualify separately as TPTWP, but while possible, I doubt it. I think Dany is one of the 3 heads of the dragon and therefore very important to winning the Battle for the Dawn. But Jon is TPTWP.

Well, but she is sort of obvious. How many other characters fit the prophecy to such an extent? :-)

The problem is: what is the prophecy really about? Because if we don't know what the prophecy refers to, we cannot be sure that we are interpreting it correctly. Take tze's theory that salt and smoke are actually snow and mist...

[BearQueen87]

Ragnarok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNTSoizcvME

That was all kinds of incredible.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, but she is sort of obvious. How many other characters fit the prophecy to such an extent? :-)

The problem is: what is the prophecy really about? Because if we don't know what the prophecy refers to, we cannot be sure that we are interpreting it correctly. Take tze's theory that salt and smoke are actually snow and mist...

I did not mean that she was or was not obvious. I meant that what I think is the "nail in the coffin" that it is likely not Dany is not how obvious it is, but the fact that we get a straight statement of her identity from a seemingly reliable source--Aemon. Obvious is in the eye of the beholder and are still only "clues." But the direct statement from Aemon makes it difficult to believe that GRRM would just hand us the answer that easily straight out of Aemon's mouth.

[sabrecmc]

Yeah, I would find Dany a more persuasive option if Aemon hadn't outright said "Its Dany!" That just made me discredit the whole idea. Maybe that is not the right reaction and GRRM is just messing with us, but it did not feel like it was the time for a reveal like that (at least, not the true reveal).

[MtnLion]

On the time line:

We know Elia nearly died when she gave birth to Aegon. So it's very unlikely that she would have attended the tourney at Harrenhal in her weak/near-death-like state after the birth of Aegon.

Which seems to suggest that Elia was pregnant with Aegon at Harrenhal, which in turn would mean that Rhaegar still believed that Aegon was the promised prince after he met Lyanna since then the scene Dany witnesses in the House of the Undying must take place after Harrenhal, but before the abduction of Elia. It would fit, Rhaegar began to believe that his child by Elia would be the promised prince in the night of his conception (the comet he saw - and he would have known that this was the night, because he and Elia most likely did not have sex all that often).

For him this interpretation was confirmed when Elia gave birth to a boy after Harrenhal, and he then decided that he would have to father another child, since the prophecy had come true.

If Aegon had already been born at Harrenhal, he must have been born months before the tourney (else Elia would not have been healthy enough to attend), which, in turn, would not make him an infant in 283 AC when he is killed.

Direct communication between Lyanna and Rhaegar is unlikely, but Oswell and Lord Whent could have served as go-betweens (Rhaegar sending letters to Harrenhal via raven, and Lord Whent handing them to her) - if Lyanna did indeed stay at Harrenhal after the end of the tourney. If not, it would have been much more difficult for them to remain in contact.

Heh, as I was formulating a theory about Elia, this popped up on the thread. We may be following the same thought pattern in synchronization.

What we know about Elia was that she was witty and in a loveless marriage with Rhaegar, but dutifully bore his children. Wouldn't it be a capper if Lyanna was invited to court by Elia after Aegon's birth, and her future as child maker had been ruled at an end? In my vision, Elia sends for Lyanna in an effort to bring her and Rhaegar together a year after the Harrnehal event. It is from King's Landing that Rhaegar and Lyanna go missing . . . ;)

[Alia of the knife]

I like everybody, including Elia. I think when we get Elia's perspective, finally, through weirnet or family or something, we're going to meet a really intelligent and focused individual who will blow everyone away with her awesomeness.

There is a sense, not necessarily in this thread but elsewhere, that if you support the idea of an R and L romance that you are either an idiotic romantic shipper or, apparently, a troll. I think the entire love story--between Elia, Rhaegar, and Lyanna--is a tragic one, and that's why it's compelling to me.

Lyanna: living in a world that doesn't allow her much freedom of choice over her own life, where she would be forced to marry a man she doesn't care for in order to satisfy her father's political ambitions. She decides not to kowtow to that, and it ends badly. (like everything else for everyone else)

Rhaegar: a bookish romantic prince who spends most of his time obsessed with trying to bring about a savior for the world only for the world to fall to pieces around him. He is trying for the greater good, falls in love and..it ends badly.

Elia: IMO, the silence about Elia is telling. We only know about Rhaegar and Lyanna's character because of recollections about them from outsiders (Ned, Meera Reed, Jamie...) but nothing about Elia. Not even when her brother Oberyn comes to KL do we hear anything about Elia's own personal feelings toward Lyanan or Rhaegar; and we know Elia was close to Oberyn. She and Rhaegar were, as Mladen said last night, a loveless partnership. I think they made a great political team (Oberyn being at Harrenhal might indicate R trying to secure Dorne before making a move against Aerys, and for that, he would need Elia's help) and I think Elia knew everything that was going on with Rhaegar, prophecy and Lyanna included. But she met one of the most tragic and worst ends we've read. She should get a ton of our sympathy because her death is merciless and cruel and horrifying. If there is a true victim in this tale, it might be Elia, but not because she's a spurned wife, which seems to be a majority opinion.

I also agree that Elia was not a spurned wife, but a proactive one. I just differ on what that might have looked like. :bowdown:

I don't necessarily agree that loving someone, but not being loved in return, especially in those political alliances makes one "spurned" nor does it make Rhaegar a bad person and Elia pathetic.

We don't choose where we love. :mellow:

I know the show is a different animal, but I can't help but think that Oberyn's impassioned statement would be so completely upside down in the books as to be confusing. And if we agree now that the show does seem to confirm things like the blue rose factor, I think its fair to say, they will start to clarify others.

The fact that Martell reactions haven't been mentioned yet in the books is I think because of the certain give-away, but they also had to establish the Martell story line, and they haven't gotten around to that aspect of the story yet. But, I think they will in the next book if Ariannes statement in tWoW sample chapter are anything to go by in her memories as a child of holding Rhaenys.

Maybe its also colored by own personal views of relationships that not "being on the same page," in terms of where the relationship is, is not reflection of a person, or anyone's fault, so its not "spurning," especially in their case where there was no promise of love to start with. :(

But, we see in Martins world that break ups can be epic, (See KG Cole and Rhaenarya cuz you know Mushroom was spinning).

What if Elia was the one who told Aerys who tKotLT really was, and Aerys sent guards to go after Lyanna, which then forced Rhaegars hand to take his KG and go get Lyanna immediately?

In the vision, he tells Elia, sadly, that there must be one more. He was not telling her something that she wouldn't care about, and was nonchalant about it, but it would seem he was trying not to hurt, or disappoint her.

And that is not to say he would not expect her to be protected and safe.

This is also a story that is told from the standpoint of hearts in conflict, and grey characters where the bad do good things, and the good sometimes do bad things.

I have also always also thought there is something not right in the turn of the phrase, "Elia and her children," rather than "Elia and their children, making her sound a solitary figure.

(And I say all of that in a non-confrontational, real bear-loving sort of way.)

That was all kinds of incredible.

Love them, and love the show, "Vikings," (though it must be taken with a grain of salt). :D

Yeah, I would find Dany a more persuasive option if Aemon hadn't outright said "Its Dany!" That just made me discredit the whole idea. Maybe that is not the right reaction and GRRM is just messing with us, but it did not feel like it was the time for a reveal like that (at least, not the true reveal).

Here is a quote from Emilia Clarke on the crucifixion scene, which is rather illuminating on her direction as a character, though that is not to say, that like Jon, this is a learning curve in her development as a leader.

"The crucifixion of the children has struck a chord in her that has clouded any

sort of helpful leadership values she may have,"says Clarke.

"She spends so much of her time ignoring the innate femininity that is within her and spends so

much time being a strong woman within a mans world that I think that she convinces herself that

what shes doing is what any commander would do, but actually its not what a good leader would do."

- Emilia Clarke

(believes that Bran will be on the other side of the War when it comes....) Something to be said about reader's emotional conflict watching two beloved characters on opposite sides, fighting each other. Especially when they are brothers. :(

:cheers:

Agreed. :bawl:

[UnmaskedLurker]

(believes that Bran will be on the other side of the War when it comes....) Something to be said about reader's emotional conflict watching two beloved characters on opposite sides, fighting each other. Especially when they are brothers. :(

I don't think I have seen this theory before. What is the theory that Bran will be on the other side of the war? What side will Bran be on (the Others?) and why? And does the theory contemplate that they will come together eventually to be on the same side or will they remain opposed the entire war? I am confused and don't think I have seen anything about this before.