Which great houses produce the best warriors

[Wmarshal]

And he died trying to save him.

So? Is Jon a scumbag for having sex with Ygritte without a condom?

He had sex with Ashara, unless she cried rape I see no issue here.

[Queen Ayras Lord Commander]

Westeros has condoms?

[Wmarshal]

They don't, so the idea someone having bastards is so terrible an argument that we may as well say anyone who has sex is a scumbag.

[Zoravar Singh]

Brandon Stark was not a great warrior Ned is just average.

Brandon was an useless scumbag and an idiot, he's the shame of the house Stark.

Cregan Stark is the best Stark warrior not Brandon.

My words were: Brandon was much better than Eddard, who was good himself. I wonder from which source you assert that Ned was 'just average'. I never said that he was a 'great warrior', great is the word I'd use for someone at Selmy level, in the same way that I'd use legend. Nor did I ever say that Brandon was better than Eddard. I'd suggest you read posts properly before posting half-flame replies.

His father died because of him.

It's implied he had bastards.

He dishonored Ashara Dayne.

His father died because of the Mad King, who changed the definition of trial by combat. If you want to look at the indirect cause, his father died because Rheagar kidnapped Brandon's sister. And how does having bastards mean you're a scumbag? Because that would mean half of Westeros( and all of Dorne) is a scumbag. And I don't believe 'dishonoured' is the word that is used for consensual sex.

[PirateVergo]

And he died trying to save him.

And he failed.

Rickard died because his son was a fool, if Ned was the heir things would have been different, and Rickard would still be alive.

But unfortunately for Rickard, the elder son was the most stupid.

So? Is Jon a scumbag for having sex with Ygritte without a condom?

Ygritte was not a noble lady also honor doesn't matter in the free folk.

f. I wonder from which source you assert that Ned was 'just average'

George RR Martin called Ned an average warrior.

I suggest you to do some research before making bold statements.

Ned was not a good fighter, some 15 years old kid could beat him.

[Wmarshal]

What? Ned would be where he was, up in a mountain. Brandon fault was getting the news very quick and close to the capital, everything has to be down face to face rule.

And Brandon only slept with two noble women, neither gave him a bastard. These noble woman did not care if Brandon bedded them either.

[Zoravar Singh]

George RR Martin called Ned an average warrior.

I suggest you to do some research before making bold statements.

Ned was not a good fighter, some 15 years old kid could beat him.

Firstly, I have not seen this post, so please link it. Secondly, average is an abstract rating without knowing who GRRM is classified as good, exceptional, legendary. And which fifteen year old kid beat Ned?

[James Arryn]

Firstly, I have not seen this post, so please link it. Secondly, average is an abstract rating without knowing who GRRM is classified as good, exceptional, legendary. And which fifteen year old kid beat Ned?

None did, but presumably guys like Jaime could have.

The quote's legit, and not really that abstract in that these things only exist in the way GRRM imagines them. I actually don't enjoy citing Martin as an end to a conversation, but in this respect; relative skill, Ned is w/e Martin says he is.

Exceptional guys include: Selmy, Jaime, Dayne, both Tyrells, both Cleganes, Rhaegar, Robert, Connington, Corbray, Andrik, the Halfhand, the White Bull, etc.

Brandon might be; I don't think we can say for sure. He's better than average (Ned) but the question is how much better. We'll never know unless Martin tells us.

[Wmarshal]

Not to poo on you, but when is Rhaegar exceptional ? Barry said he matched Arthur in jousting and that is it.

[PirateVergo]

http://www.mtv.com/videos/interview/853851/george-rr-martin-plays-grr-vs-jrr.jhtml

Around 3 minutes

And which fifteen year old kid beat Ned?

Jon Snow and Loras Tyrell.

Jaime,Selmy,Dayne,Gregor,Sandor were also better than him at 15 since Ned is nothing special.

Brandon fault was getting the news very quick and close to the capital, everything has to be down face to face rule.

Brandon's fault was to say he's gonna kill the heir of the 7 kingdoms in front of the king.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Not to poo on you, but when is Rhaegar exceptional ? Barry said he matched Arthur in jousting and that is it.

Good jousters tend to be good warriors.

So Brandon likes to have sex and somehow that makes him a scumbag?

[Zoravar Singh]

None did, but presumably guys like Jaime could have.

The quote's legit, and not really that abstract in that these things only exist in the way GRRM imagines them. I actually don't enjoy citing Martin as an end to a conversation, but in this respect; relative skill, Ned is w/e Martin says he is.

Exceptional guys include: Selmy, Jaime, Dayne, both Tyrells, both Cleganes, Rhaegar, Robert, Connington, Corbray, Andrik, the Halfhand, the White Bull, etc.

Brandon might be; I don't think we can say for sure. He's better than average (Ned) but the question is how much better. We'll never know unless Martin tells us.

Hmmm, if GRRM said it, I'd have no choice but to agree, but It'd still be good to know what other swordsmen, who weer good but not legends such as Robar Royce were ranked as by Martin. That being said, my exceptional list would omit some of the names you've mentioned.

[Wmarshal]

Dain Storm, I guess, so that means everyone in Westeros is a scumbag.

[James Arryn]

Not to poo on you, but when is Rhaegar exceptional ? Barry said he matched Arthur in jousting and that is it.

Unless there's a Rhaegar Exception, every single other consistently dominant jouster also happens to be a dominant fighter...Selmy, Jamie, Dayne, the Cleganes, Loras...and Rhaegar may have been the best jouster we've heard of. His titling record is something in the area of 30-1, and his defeated opponents include just about everyone of any note.

You don't have to be a great jouster to be a great warrior, but you have to be a great warrior to be a great jouster.

[PirateVergo]

So Brandon likes to have sex and somehow that makes him a scumbag?

Dishonoring noble ladies, and telling his brother to dance with a woman he's gonna bang make him a scumbag.

[Twenty of House Goodmen]

Dishonoring noble ladies, and telling his brother to dance with a woman he's gonna bang make him a scumbag.

From what is given, those noble ladies chose to have sex with him. Also, there's absolutely no evidence that Eddard had any feelings for Ashara. Brandon helping him get a dance could simply have been him trying to make his shy brother more social.

[Wmarshal]

How did he even know his brother had feelings for ? How do we? Again, no rape, what is the problem? It is not as if he had sex a promised lady or something.

[Zoravar Singh]

Jon Snow and Loras Tyrell.

Jaime,Selmy,Dayne,Gregor,Sandor were also better than him at 15 since Ned is nothing special.

But none of them actually beat him when they were 15, and a kid at 15 vs Ned, Ned would probably win, specially when you consider 16 is usually the youngest age for knighthood.

Unless there's a Rhaegar Exception, every single other consistently dominant jouster also happens to be a dominant fighter...Selmy, Jamie, Dayne, the Cleganes, Loras...and Rhaegar may have been the best jouster we've heard of. His titling record is something in the area of 30-1, and his defeated opponents include just about everyone of any note.

You don't have to be a great jouster to be a great warrior, but you have to be a great warrior to be a great jouster.

I may be wrong, but I think that the status of a crown Prince is an advantage in jousting, atleast against men from lesser houses, or atleast this is what I inferred from Valarr's fights in 'The Hedge Knight'. Not saying Rhaegar was bad or anything, but I wouldn't go sofar as to class him in the same league as Dane, Selmy et all.

[PirateVergo]

But none of them actually beat him when they were 15, and a kid at 15 vs Ned, Ned would probably win ( save one or two possible exceptions).

That make no sense, Loras is said to be in the same tier as Sandor Clegane or Jaime Lannister, and he was 16 years old at the start of AGOT.

Loras would destroy Ned without any problem in a fight.

Also, there's absolutely no evidence that Eddard had any feelings for Ashara

How did he even know his brother had feelings for ? How do we?

The point was not that Ned had any feelings toward Ashara Dayne in fact he does not matter, but you do not help your brother to dance with a girl you're gonna bed a few hours later.

[James Arryn]

I may be wrong, but I think that the status of a crown Prince is an advantage in jousting, atleast against men from lesser houses, or atleast this is what I inferred from Valarr's fights in 'The Hedge Knight'. Not saying Rhaegar was bad or anything, but I wouldn't go sofar as to class him in the same league as Dane, Selmy et all.

He beat Dayne both times they met, and he and Selmy were 1-1 (Rhaegar's only loss, in the finals) and Selmy remembers losing with regret. One of the times he beat Dayne they broke a dozen lances first...not the kind of thing you can fake.

What effect would being Prince have? I honestly don't understand the argument, unless you're saying Rhaegar cheated like Valarr. But no one thinks of him that way, and you don't have to be a Prince to cheat.