Was need really an average fighter?

[Wild _Rover]

Robb had an honor guard of 30 skilled warriors defending him. Given that ned said the most important thing for a commander is their voice, he probably fought the same way.

Ned didn't say that he was quoting Jon Arryn. What Ned taught his sons is the most important thing for a commander is to know his men and to let his men know them. Also Cat says that Robb would always go to where the battle was the thickest SOMETHING HE LEARNED FROM HIS FATHER. So to try and make it seem like the Starks are pussies because Robb had bodyguards is ridiculous.

I don't think Ned was a great swordsman but a man doesn't live through wars and battles by being an ok fighter.

[The Fallen]

Robb had an honor guard of 30 skilled warriors defending him. Given that ned said the most important thing for a commander is their voice, he probably fought the same way.

Ned would be the first person to admit that he only survived because of howla d reed. Not only that, but they were outnumbered. This isnt the lord of the rings. You have no facts. Ned is never mentioned as being an exceptional fighter. Its up to you to prove that hes better than most lords and youve failed to do that in every level.

Youre nitpicking because incaught you. Jus admit youre wrong. Firstly, george has said that the lannisters are an exception and that tywins army is very disciplined and well trained. Secondly, where did you get those numbers crom?

Dont worry about it. I wont be replying to yiur posts here anymore unless you bring something new to the table. Concession accepted.

There are a lot of concessions being accepted in this thread. Well I'm not conceding until every vote has been counted, including absentee votes. And then I demand a recount.

(Uhm)

You keep bringing up the honor guards. But I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? Robert Baratheon would have fought with an honor guard also. I'm not sure how that's relevant.

GRRM used the word competent. You take that to mean average. Then it means that all the nobility is average. Maybe you're right. If someone else feels that competent means slightly above-average (even amongst the nobility) I don't know why that bothers you so much.

My response would (7 pages ago) would have been, "I don't see it that way", and left it at that.

Too many view these threads as gladiatorial contests. I held the same position as you. But the word competent made me consider that maybe Ned was a smidgen above average. Either way, it's not that serious since I'm not advocating that Ned was a great swordsman. It simply makes more sense to me that a soldier like Ned, who fights where the action is the thickest and leads from the front, would need to be a little more than "meh" in order to survive all the battles he's been involved in. Especially when we hear of all the other lords who died in this and that battle.

If Martin came out and said Ned was average, really no better than Joe Sword over there and only survived because of his honor guard, I might be slightly disappointed, but it wouldn't be earth-shattering.

So I find your stance - he's average, you failed to show me proof, you lose - interesting.

[Lord Reaver]

competent

ˈkɒmpɪt(ə)nt/

adjective

adjective: competent

having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully.

"a highly competent surgeon"

(of a person) efficient and capable.

"an infinitely competent mother of three"

Exactly. Competent means able, having the necessary skills to fight. Which one would think any person who had access to the same training as Ned (i.e. any highborn person) would be, unless they somehow lacked seriously in either desire (Samwell) or talent for fighting.

You will notice that in order to say something more about the capabilities than that, a descriptor such as "highly" or "infinately" is used. This then can be used in order to say something more, about the relative level of competence. However, GRRM used no such descriptor for Ned.

Average, on the other hand, is a word that implies a comparison within a group. Without specification of which group, this is essentially a pointless question, but I presented some alternative interpretations in my first post, and I haven't seen any argument that would lead me to change those, yet.

[Lee-Sensei]

Ned didn't say that he was quoting Jon Arryn. What Ned taught his sons is the most important thing for a commander is to know his men and to let his men know them. Also Cat says that Robb would always go to where the battle was the thickest SOMETHING HE LEARNED FROM HIS FATHER. So to try and make it seem like the Starks are pussies because Robb had bodyguards is ridiculous.

I don't think Ned was a great swordsman but a man doesn't live through wars and battles by being an ok fighter.

When did I say they were pusses? Being a competent (average for a lord) fighter doesn't make you weak. Robb went where it was thickest with a bodyguard of 30 or so skilled warriors and a dire wolf.

[Lee-Sensei]

There are a lot of concessions being accepted in this thread. Well I'm not conceding until every vote has been counted, including absentee votes. And then I demand a recount.

(Uhm)

You keep bringing up the honor guards. But I'm not sure what point you're trying to make? Robert Baratheon would have fought with an honor guard also. I'm not sure how that's relevant.

GRRM used the word competent. You take that to mean average. Then it means that all the nobility is average. Maybe you're right. If someone else feels that competent means slightly above-average (even amongst the nobility) I don't know why that bothers you so much.

My response would (7 pages ago) would have been, "I don't see it that way", and left it at that.

Too many view these threads as gladiatorial contests. I held the same position as you. But the word competent made me consider that maybe Ned was a smidgen above average. Either way, it's not that serious since I'm not advocating that Ned was a great swordsman. It simply makes more sense to me that a soldier like Ned, who fights where the action is the thickest and leads from the front, would need to be a little more than "meh" in order to survive all the battles he's been involved in. Especially when we hear of all the other lords who died in this and that battle.

If Martin came out and said Ned was average, really no better than Joe Sword over there and only survived because of his honor guard, I might be slightly disappointed, but it wouldn't be earth-shattering.

So I find your stance - he's average, you failed to show me proof, you lose - interesting.

1) where did it say that robert fought with an honor guard? That doesn't seem like something he would do. Like Jaime.

2) it doesn't bother me, it bothers them. It stands to reason that competent means people who are trained to fight and ned is never singled out as an exceptionally good warrior like he is in the show.

3) all the other lords wouldn't have honor guards.

4) it's not that interesting. I just go with the facts. I despise rhaegar, but admit that he was a great fighter. I love edmure, but admit that he's not a great tactician and that he's not an above average fighter. Ned was average as a fighter until proven otherwise IMO.

[James Arryn]

A major noble fighting without some kind of honour guard would be pretty foolish. In the heat of battle they may be scattered some or w/e, but to intentionally go without is tantamount to suicide, regardless of how skilled or brave you are. In the ebb and flow of a battle you might find yourself surrounded by several enemy soldiers who would be noting your mount, your armor, your sigil, and either for ransom or glory, taking you down.

[Lord Reaver]

Indeed. The reason for having an honor guard isn't primarly for pomp and circumstance. It's due to the fact that in a combat situation where the leader is literally on the front line, capturing or killing said leader is going to be priority #1 for the opposing side. Heck, even the suspicion that your leader has fallen can be enough to rout your entire army, as almost happened to William the Conqueror at Hastings.

[The Fallen]

1) where did it say that robert fought with an honor guard? That doesn't seem like something he would do. Like Jaime.

3) all the other lords wouldn't have honor guards.

It doesn't state that Ned fought with an honor guard, yet you make that assumption. Sounds biased.

As the two prior posters stated, every lord would have their most trusted men around them. At least initially. We actually read Barristan lamenting the fact that he was separated from Rhaegar at the Trident.

Lords being killed was actually odd. Those guys would fetch a pretty penny in ransom.

[Lee-Sensei]

It doesn't state that Ned fought with an honor guard, yet you make that assumption. Sounds biased.

As the two prior posters stated, every lord would have their most trusted men around them. At least initially. We actually read Barristan lamenting the fact that he was separated from Rhaegar at the Trident.

Lords being killed was actually odd. Those guys would fetch a pretty penny in ransom.

1) I don't know why you'd say that? I don't hate Ned. he actually used to be my favorite character. I just don't see any evidence that he was a better than average fighter in the books. We know that robb learned a lot from Ned from how he planned his campaign to how he dealt with his banner men. It stands to reason that ned used an honor guard. Guys like robert and Jaime on the other hand, seem like the type to rush in from the front and inspire their men with their daring. In fact, I'm pretty sure that was part of why Jaime lannisters was captured.

[The Fallen]

1) I don't know why you'd say that? I don't hate Ned. he actually used to be my favorite character. I just don't see any evidence that he was a better than average fighter in the books. We know that robb learned a lot from Ned from how he planned his campaign to how he dealt with his banner men. It stands to reason that ned used an honor guard. Guys like robert and Jaime on the other hand, seem like the type to rush in from the front and inspire their men with their daring. In fact, I'm pretty sure that was part of why Jaime lannisters was captured.

It sounded biased. As if only Ned and Robb used an honor guard.

Jaime's charge was a last, desperate attempt to try and kill Robb. One he didn't expect to survive.

Rhaegar had guards. And I'm sure Robert did also. Stannis, Tywin, the Old Bear, Renly; they all use them.

[Lee-Sensei]

It sounded biased. As if only Ned and Robb used an honor guard.

Jaime's charge was a last, desperate attempt to try and kill Robb. One he didn't expect to survive.

Rhaegar had guards. And I'm sure Robert did also. Stannis, Tywin, the Old Bear, Renly; they all use them.

No. I suspect that most would use lords paramount would use honor guards guards.

Rhaegar was a different kind of person. It just doesn't seem like Jaime and Roberts style. Tywin and Stannis aren't frontline commanders. Renlys never fought a battle.

[LordBloodraven]

Where did it say that Ned had an honour guard?

[Trigger Warning]

Where did it say that Ned had an honour guard?

Military convention throughout history. What else is he going to do, ride around on his own? Without a core of friends and retainers protecting the commander?

[LordBloodraven]

Military convention throughout history. What else is he going to do, ride around on his own? Without a core of friends and retainers protecting the commander?

Ok, so just military convention throughout history. So does this convention apply to all the Lords and commanders in the ASOIAF series? Because, some posts seems to imply that only Robb and Ned had need of this "military convention throughout history"

[The Fallen]

That's what I'm explaining to Lee-Sensei. Robb had one, but we can't say that because of that Ned also had one. But if we're going to jump to that conclusion than it has to extend to all lords.

In Westeros, we have Barristan lamenting that he was separated from Rhaegar. But no mention for anyone else.

But in our world, all lords had protection. It just makes sense that the most important individuals would be guarded a little more than the average soldier. But of course, in battle things happen and lords could be separated from their guard.

[Lee-Sensei]

Ok, so just military convention throughout history. So does this convention apply to all the Lords and commanders in the ASOIAF series? Because, some posts seems to imply that only Robb and Ned had need of this "military convention throughout history"

Where is it implied that only robb and ned used bodyguards?

That's what I'm explaining to Lee-Sensei. Robb had one, but we can't say that because of that Ned also had one. But if we're going to jump to that conclusion than it has to extend to all lords.

In Westeros, we have Barristan lamenting that he was separated from Rhaegar. But no mention for anyone else.

But in our world, all lords had protection. It just makes sense that the most important individuals would be guarded a little more than the average soldier. But of course, in battle things happen and lords could be separated from their guard.

I suspect that most do, but even if characters like Jaime and robert used bodyguards, they have a rep as great fighters that ned doesn't. Why is it such an issue that he was an average fighter anyways? He had other strengths.

[Dragon88]

I don't get where people get he is an average fighter. Its stated that he is a competent fighter and based on his experience and everything, I would guess he would be above average. However I have a feeling that he got weaker as he got older. One of my guess is that he was much stronger fighter during the rebellion as oppose to when the series starts. As for whether is a great warrior, that is obviously not the case. He is no Jaime, Robert or Selmy but to just say he is a average fighter without any proof is kind of biased. The guy had good training and had great accomplishments, and I would like to believe that he is at least above average fighter. Also he is not like Tywin where he is a pure strategist that hangs in the back. He leads his men into battle like how Robb does, which should make him above average fighter. I see him as more of a balance warrior not exceeding in one thing a lot. For example Tywin is a great strategist and Jaime is a great warrior, I see Eddard as a good warrior and a good strategist, not exceptional in either case but not just average either.

[The Fallen]

Where is it implied that only robb and ned used bodyguards?

I suspect that most do, but even if characters like Jaime and robert used bodyguards, they have a rep as great fighters that ned doesn't. Why is it such an issue that he was an average fighter anyways? He had other strengths.

You've implied it. That's why I asked how it was relevant.

And no one is arguing that Jaime and Robert weren't great fighters. Nor that Ned is great.

I actually have no problem with your statement of Ned being average. He's clearly closer to average than great. I find your stubbornness on this issue interesting.

[LordBloodraven]

He was a high lord who fought surrounded by bodyguards, which would have sacrificed themselves to protect him. Viz: Robb at the Whispering Wood.

He also had best armor and warhorse that money could buy. Tyrion survived 2 battles because of these advantages. Doesn't make him a good fighter, as I hope we all agree.

As to Tywin, he did actually fight too. He charged with the reserve at the Green Fork and Tyrion saw blood on his mace afterwards. He also commanded the left during the Battle of the Blackwater, so was even more in the thick of things. But see above re: all his advantages.

As to the ToJ, we just have very little to go on. Ned himself attributed his survival to Howland Reed. And again, his men would have tried to protect him. Also, if his dream was accurate, the KG may have fought on foot, which would have been a massive disadvantage.

Jorah has better documented fighting chops than Ned, incidentally, as does Thoros of Myr. After all, the latter was the first over the walls of Pyke and the former not far behind. We never heard anything along similar lines about Ned. No notable feats of arms during the 2 wars that he participated in... Except for the ToJ, where things have been unclear and complicated.

Ned didn't say that he was quoting Jon Arryn. What Ned taught his sons is the most important thing for a commander is to know his men and to let his men know them. Also Cat says that Robb would always go to where the battle was the thickest SOMETHING HE LEARNED FROM HIS FATHER. So to try and make it seem like the Starks are pussies because Robb had bodyguards is ridiculous.

I don't think Ned was a great swordsman but a man doesn't live through wars and battles by being an ok fighter.

Robb had an honor guard of 30 skilled warriors defending him. Given that ned said the most important thing for a commander is their voice, he probably fought the same way.

Ned would be the first person to admit that he only survived because of howla d reed. Not only that, but they were outnumbered. This isnt the lord of the rings. You have no facts. Ned is never mentioned as being an exceptional fighter. Its up to you to prove that hes better than most lords and youve failed to do that in every level.

Youre nitpicking because incaught you. Jus admit youre wrong. Firstly, george has said that the lannisters are an exception and that tywins army is very disciplined and well trained. Secondly, where did you get those numbers crom?

Dont worry about it. I wont be replying to yiur posts here anymore unless you bring something new to the table. Concession accepted.

Some relevant answers to your question.

Where is it implied that only robb and ned used bodyguards?

I suspect that most do, but even if characters like Jaime and robert used bodyguards, they have a rep as great fighters that ned doesn't. Why is it such an issue that he was an average fighter anyways? He had other strengths.

[King Rhaegar I]

Do we have textual evidence that Ned used Ice in battle? (I ask because I don’t know and am curious. To me, a greatsword seems pretty unwieldy, and if I were Ned I’d use a different sword and a shield. Between a competent swordsman wielding an ancestral greatsword and a competent swordsman wielding a normal sword and a shield, my money is on the latter.)

If it was between a normal greatsword, and a normal one handed sword, then yeah, but this is Ice, made of Valyrian Steel. its virtually weightless, and extremely sharp.