Was need really an average fighter?

[CharlesW]

I tend to think that he's somewhat above average. He's fought in plenty of engagements during the rebellion, and some skills are needed to survive them all. On the other hand, you rarely if ever heard anyone praise Ned Stark for his fighting abilities. In that martial world where prowess on the battlefield is a man's most admirable trait, that in itself is telling. So likely, he's good and could certainly hold his own without being on par with the truly greats.

[Sullen]

Loras is the best jouster in the realm. He's not top tier w/ a sword. His bro Garlan may be.

Someone made the point and it's true that there's a difference between sparring, tourney, and a real FIGHT. It's very plausible that a competent but not exceptional swordfighter like Ned, who is nothing special physically but who has a unique weapon in Ice, would be well served to not let real pros like Jaime see him fight to pick up on his tricks and weaknesses.

George included Loras in the best fighters of the Realm in one of his interviews, he's not simply an incredible jouster, he's an incredible knight as well.

[Lee-Sensei]

I think the issue with your statement is that you use the word competent immediately followed by he had the training of a highborn lordling and could probably beat the average person (people without the rraining of a highborn lordling)". You're trying to devalue the meaning of competent to fit your argument.

I always viewed Ned as average, mostly due to GRRM's comment that Ned was competent.

But I actually never paid attention to the word itself, until Bryan Fury brought attention to it. Competent doesn't mean average. And Martin, as a writer, surely knows the meanings of words. So his using that word means that I was actually underestimating Ned. Interestingly, competent is also the word he uses to describe Tywin as a Hand. (Chew on that all you 'Tywin for Greatest Hand of All-Time' advocates.)

Also, we have take into account the context in which the word was used. He wanted to make a distinction between Brandon, the gifted and higly-competent fighter, and Ned, who was competent.

Now, don't get the wrong idea. I'm not going to start proclaiming Ned a great fighter. He's not on the level of Jaime and Barristan and the Hound. And Bronze Yohn wass too big and powerful of a guy for Ned to handle. But my opinion of his ability has slightly changed. For the better.

Im not devaluing anything. Theres about as much evidence to ned being a better than average fighter as ther is for edmure and theon, yet no one would argue that theyre better than average. I just call it like it is.

[Bryanfury]

Theon and Edmure don't have the author saying they are competent swordsmen

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

George included Loras in the best fighters of the Realm in one of his interviews, he's not simply an incredible jouster, he's an incredible knight as well.

But now he's all melty hands and face from the boiling oil &/or dead. He should replace the knightoftherose for Vic to kill on the show but it'll never happen. Vic would've beat Ned too, btw. (Vic would've given half his teeth to try his axe against the kingslayer')

[Lee-Sensei]

Theon and Edmure don't have the author saying they are competent swordsmen

competent doesnt mean better than the average nobleman. If anything, it means the average nobleman. As tyrion explains to Jon Snow. Most soldiers are conscripted peasants who've never held a sword in their lfe. Nothing weve seen or heard of ned suggests that hea better than the average novbleman, he has no reputation as an exceptional fighter. Why is it so hard to accept that ned wasnt an exceptional fighter?

[Bryanfury]

Why is it so hard to accept that ned wasnt an exceptional fighter?

Another strawman, when did I say that? You flew off on another tangent and made claims about how Edmure and Theon aren't mentioned to be good with a sword. All I did was point out that they are poor comparisons because GRRM actually has gone on record to say Ned was competent, whereas he does no such thing for Edmure and Theon.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to accept that we're not trying to put Ned in any elite tier lists. If this thread and the discussion on Ned's competency bothers you so very much that you attack positions people aren't making, maybe you should stop looking at the thread altogether.

[willofDorne]

competent doesnt mean better than the average nobleman. If anything, it means the average nobleman. As tyrion explains to Jon Snow. Most soldiers are conscripted peasants who've never held a sword in their lfe. Nothing weve seen or heard of ned suggests that hea better than the average novbleman, he has no reputation as an exceptional fighter. Why is it so hard to accept that ned wasnt an exceptional fighter?

Because saying he wasn't an exceptional fighter sounds like a blatant fucking lie. He wielded Ice, to a 100% success rate as far as we know. That'd make him pretty exceptional. Even if he is only "competent" as a whole, we can still regard him as exceptional in regard to the weapon he was wielding, and the circumstances of wars that he fought in.

Also, he chose to take SEVEN to the TOJ, that's a honorable number of fighters. That decision alone makes him sound more than exceptional.

[Lee-Sensei]

Another strawman, when did I say that? You flew off on another tangent and made claims about how Edmure and Theon aren't mentioned to be good with a sword. All I did was point out that they are poor comparisons because GRRM actually has gone on record to say Ned was competent, whereas he does no such thing for Edmure and Theon.

I don't know why it's so hard for you to accept that we're not trying to put Ned in any elite tier lists. If this thread and the discussion on Ned's competency bothers you so very much that you attack positions people aren't making, maybe you should stop looking at the thread altogether.

Again. Youre assuming that competent is better than the average high lord, when in reality its probably the average high lord.

I nevwr said you were, but i deal in facts and dont let personal biases cloud my judgement. I really dislike rhaegar, but he was a great swordsman. I really like edmure, but as far as his abilities as a fighter goes at best i can say that hes competent (the average noble).

Youre the one on the attack. Calm down. Im just calling it shat it is. But heres an idea. Why dont you provide slme solid dvidence that ned was better than the average high lord. If you can, I'll concede.

[Happy Ent]

Also, he chose to take SEVEN to the TOJ, that's a honorable number of fighters. That decision alone makes him sound more than exceptional.

Very few of those seven were fighters. (Howland Reed, for crying out loud, who need little girls to fight for him! Another was a squire.)

It seems to me the seven were chosen because they were Lyanna’s friends. (Since Ned assumed he’d find a knocked-up Lyanna, who was guilty of high treason.) It’s not a fighting expedition, it’s an expedition to find and save Lyanna before somebody else tries to ingratiate themselves with the new regime by killing her.

[Bryanfury]

Again. Youre assuming that competent is better than the average high lord, when in reality its probably the average high lord.

I nevwr said you were, but i deal in facts and dont let personal biases cloud my judgement. I really dislike rhaegar, but he was a great swordsman. I really like edmure, but as far as his abilities as a fighter goes at best i can say that hes competent (the average noble).

Youre the one on the attack. Calm down. Im just calling it shat it is. But heres an idea. Why dont you provide slme solid dvidence that ned was better than the average high lord. If you can, I'll concede.

What? Are you confused about something? I'm not assuming anything; I'm saying that GRRM called Ned competent. You're the one attacking me and others over a strawman about how we're calling him exceptional, great etc. One person out of a thread might do this, but the majority aren't. You are the aggressor here.

Also, no you can't say Edmure was competent, because unlike with Ned, it's never stated in story or by GRRM what Edmure's capabilities are. You're really stretching, reaching, and coming off a little sore about anyone daring to even say the words Ned and fighter in the same sentence.

[Lord Reaver]

Because saying he wasn't an exceptional fighter sounds like a blatant fucking lie. He wielded Ice, to a 100% success rate as far as we know. That'd make him pretty exceptional. Even if he is only "competent" as a whole, we can still regard him as exceptional in regard to the weapon he was wielding, and the circumstances of wars that he fought in.

Having a 100% success rate is irrelevant, without also considering the opposition one fights.

Wielding Ice would have given him a slight edge, GRRM said that Arthur Dayne and Barristan Selmy were about equal, but that AD would win if he was wielding Dawn. So having Ice would probably mean Ned would win against most other competent people like him, due to having that slight edge in equipment.

But exceptional? No, that's going a bit too far. I'll save that sort of words for the likes of Garlan, Loras etc.

[Happy Ent]

So having Ice would probably mean Ned would win against most other competent people like him, due to having that slight edge in equipment.

Do we have textual evidence that Ned used Ice in battle? (I ask because I don’t know and am curious. To me, a greatsword seems pretty unwieldy, and if I were Ned I’d use a different sword and a shield. Between a competent swordsman wielding an ancestral greatsword and a competent swordsman wielding a normal sword and a shield, my money is on the latter.)

[Sullen]

Because saying he wasn't an exceptional fighter sounds like a blatant fucking lie. He wielded Ice, to a 100% success rate as far as we know. That'd make him pretty exceptional. Even if he is only "competent" as a whole, we can still regard him as exceptional in regard to the weapon he was wielding, and the circumstances of wars that he fought in.

Also, he chose to take SEVEN to the TOJ, that's a honorable number of fighters. That decision alone makes him sound more than exceptional.

You know who else has a 100% success rate?

Boros Blount.

[Lee-Sensei]

What? Are you confused about something? I'm not assuming anything; I'm saying that GRRM called Ned competent. You're the one attacking me and others over a strawman about how we're calling him exceptional, great etc. One person out of a thread might do this, but the majority aren't. You are the aggressor here.

Also, no you can't say Edmure was competent, because unlike with Ned, it's never stated in story or by GRRM what Edmure's capabilities are. You're really stretching, reaching, and coming off a little sore about anyone daring to even say the words Ned and fighter in the same sentence.

You couldnt find anythig that suggest that ned was better than the average lord, huh? Concession accepted.

[Bryanfury]

You couldnt find anythig that suggest that ned was better than the average lord, hug? Concession accepted.

You couldn't find anything that suggests that Ned was not better than the average lord, huh? Concession accepted.

[Happy Ent]

Lord Reaver, another thing speaking against Ned’s benefit from using Ice must be that he didn’t train with it in his youth. He must have been trained with sword and shield (as Robb is). The only Stark who conceivably could have trained combat (as opposed to beheading) with Ice is Brandon, the hot-headed and martial heir to Winterfell. (Right?)

[Lee-Sensei]

You couldn't find anything that suggests that Ned was not better than the average lord, huh? Concession accepted.

Thats not hos it works buddy. Assuming that ned has the abilities of the average high lord trained by a master at arms is te standard. Assuming that he is competent is the standard. You hav to prove that hes better rhan the average lord.

[Pod The Impaler]

You know who else has a 100% success rate?

Boros Blount.

100% of zero, heh.

[Sullen]

100% of zero, heh.

Well, he was in the Kingsguard which means he trained with the likes of Jaime and Barristan, which means he must be near their level, am I right?