Was need really an average fighter?

[Talking Hodor]

I think Ned could hold his own against most anybody in a sword fight. He might not be Inigo Montoya-good, but he would know how to use terrain to his advantage and might fight a bit dirty if need be. He wasn't a tourney fighter, but he survived a war, including a show-down against KG legends. I bet he totally threw sand in Arthur Dayne's face right before Howland Reed tripped him with a fishnet and Ned stabbed him in the face with Ice. Plus, I'll bet he's the best decapitator in the Seven Kingdoms thanks to his job as executioner of truant Night's Watchmen.

[King Rhaegar I]

I think everyone is forgetting, that Ned is wielding a five foot Greatsword, made of Valyrian Steel. Ned doesn't need to be as good as Dayne/ Selmy, when Ice could tear through most armour with ease, as well as moving it as fast as any normal one handed weapon, if not faster. He probably was a competent fighter, but it was Ice that Gained him his Victory. Just as Robert vs Rhaegar would have been a much easier fight for Rhaegar if Robert hadn't had his Hammer.

[DamoDega]

Underrated by 90% of peoples because he was humblest dude ever and never done tourneys, wich is the fastest way to get forum's childish dragon ballz power level / street cred

Overrated by 10% because they confuse being important/main character with being supah awesome fighter

3 notes

-the infamous fight Ned vs Jaime on TV was when GRRM was still deeply involved in the show, i don't believe he consider it blasphemy as most fans do

-i'm not say Ned will beat Yohn in a real fight, but a thing sure i know after almost 17 years (i'm 30) in fight sports that sparring, a match. and a fight are 3 different things.

Usually humble dudes tend to spar very light trying to don't exagerate, where very competitive guys (Yohn was a tourney knight) tend to escalate trying to have the upper hand.

Again i'm not saying he's better than Yohn, i'm just saying that as type of men, Yohn will tend to "win" a sparring session even at equal skill

-i will laugh my ass off see the internet instant change flag if ever GRRM explain the Arthur Dayne duel and end up Reed's help saved Eddard but still was kinda minor, and Ned killed him in a fair way (read: during an exchange, without further outside help)

And for the dude that asked about Jon... now, that's the true underdog

He got his noble style childhood training, he's still young with a lot of potential improvement, he's getting tougher and tougher on the NW, keep training, learning dirty tricks and wildlings style. And Longclaw is Valyrian steel

Plus dat berserk moments and plot armor, scary combination :D

As now maybe not, but at some point i will bet on Jon (full grown, on his prime) even against some superior techical swordmen

[sandywinder]

Yes but,

Dawn is the ancestral greatsword of House Dayne, who bestow the title Sword of the Morning on the sword's bearer. It is said to be made from metal forged from the heart of a fallen star. Its blade is as pale as milkglass. The name of the Daynes' castle, Starfall, and their arms, featuring a white sword and falling star, both reference Dawn. The blade is said to be just as sharp as Valyrian steel.

[Happy Ent]

-i will laugh my ass off see the internet instant change flag if ever GRRM explain the Arthur Dayne duel and end up Reed's help saved Eddard but still was kinda minor, and Ned killed him in a fair way (read: during an exchange, without further outside help)

Implicitly, GRRM already has. The Howland!Superwarg theory posits that HR was the most powerful warg of his generation (“knew all the magics”, spent many years levelling up on Eye of Faces, kids know a lot about warging). We know that competent wargs can warg people (Bran does it, Sixskins does it). Thus we can guess that Howland warged into AD, probably unsuccesfully (because AD is not hodor), but enough to make him miss a parry. Ned kills him, which turns HR into a vegetable or otherwise incapacitates him (as we also know happens from the book when your warg host dies). All the pieces of the puzzle have been laid out during the books already, with other wargs and hosts, of course.

I’d be suprised if GRRM ever made this explicit, though.

[Trigger Warning]

I know Dayne was outnumbered at the ToJ but something doesn't sound right about this battle. Three of the best KGs such as Dayne 'defending' a tower should beat 'competent' fighters like Ned and the others. Unless Ned's companions were very good fighters, of course. Taking a tower they would have to fight up the steps in a short space and one at a time against Dayne and co. I am assuming any intelligent defence force would fight this way against superior numbers.

Not necessarily. They're all armoured, they're all trained swordsmen and they're all human at the end of the day, fights could come down to grappling and daggers, if a competent fighter's keeping you busy at the front then another can come in at the back, they could trip or slip or anything and 5 of the 7 still died with Dayne surviving to fight Ned and Reed's warp dickery. Aemon the Dragonknight died fighting two men, you could be the best swordsman ever fighting one on one duels or hacking through people in a battle but it doesn't mean the odds aren't massively against you if two or more trained fighters are focused on you.

Ned's dream suggests that the kingsguard came out, probably to die with honour knowing that they couldn't defend this tower indefinitely.

[The Fallen]

Its not about discussig it. Discussing it is fine. But people should be objective about these things. Ned was competent. In this case that means he had the training of a highborn lordling and could probably beat the average person (people without the rraining of a highborn lordling), but theres no evidence that he is better than the average nobleman. I like Theon, but I dont argue that hes some super awesome swordsman. I like Edmure, but I dont aegue that hea a super awesome swordsman. Yet i always see Ned being placed on a high pedestal as a fighter and a general and i just dont while i can somewhat understand putting him high up there as a commander, as a fighter he was average for his station.

I think the issue with your statement is that you use the word competent immediately followed by he had the training of a highborn lordling and could probably beat the average person (people without the rraining of a highborn lordling)". You're trying to devalue the meaning of competent to fit your argument.

I always viewed Ned as average, mostly due to GRRM's comment that Ned was competent.

But I actually never paid attention to the word itself, until Bryan Fury brought attention to it. Competent doesn't mean average. And Martin, as a writer, surely knows the meanings of words. So his using that word means that I was actually underestimating Ned. Interestingly, competent is also the word he uses to describe Tywin as a Hand. (Chew on that all you 'Tywin for Greatest Hand of All-Time' advocates.)

Also, we have take into account the context in which the word was used. He wanted to make a distinction between Brandon, the gifted and higly-competent fighter, and Ned, who was competent.

Now, don't get the wrong idea. I'm not going to start proclaiming Ned a great fighter. He's not on the level of Jaime and Barristan and the Hound. And Bronze Yohn wass too big and powerful of a guy for Ned to handle. But my opinion of his ability has slightly changed. For the better.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

Implicitly, GRRM already has. The Howland!Superwarg theory posits that HR was the most powerful warg of his generation (“knew all the magics”, spent many years levelling up on Eye of Faces, kids know a lot about warging). We know that competent wargs can warg people (Bran does it, Sixskins does it). Thus we can guess that Howland warged into AD, probably unsuccesfully (because AD is not hodor), but enough to make him miss a parry. Ned kills him, which turns HR into a vegetable or otherwise incapacitates him (as we also know happens from the book when your warg host dies). All the pieces of the puzzle have been laid out during the books already, with other wargs and hosts, of course.

I’d be suprised if GRRM ever made this explicit, though.

Really interesting theory!

I always find it bemusing just how obsessively 'fanboyish' some in the ASOIAF community gets over characters who for all intents and purposes we can take to be dead - Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne - based on retrospective scraps of information and opinion. We have all these resident experts who take it as gospel that Arthur Dayne was this unstoppable fighting force based on Bran's second hand recollection of what Ned said, and a few bits and pieces elsewhere from the likes of Barristan, etc.

[Red Tiger]

Really interesting theory!

I always find it bemusing just how obsessively 'fanboyish' some in the ASOIAF community gets over characters who for all intents and purposes we can take to be dead - Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne - based on retrospective scraps of information and opinion. We have all these resident experts who take it as gospel that Arthur Dayne was this unstoppable fighting force based on Bran's second hand recollection of what Ned said, and a few bits and pieces elsewhere from the likes of Barristan, etc.

You know what pisses me off about the show? Everybody says Barristan is this ultimate badass, but al we saw was the manticore stabbing.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

Give me an above average 'all-rounder' like Ned Stark or Garlan Tyrell any day over these fandoms for 'true knights' like the Morning Star, Barristan or Lorras Tyrell, etc. Another one that really annoys me is all this rubbish about Aemon the Dragonknight. We have no idea in practice how good a fighter he really was - the man died at least 120-130 years before the series proper begins. Not even Master Aemon ever met him, so we're in "deeds take on legendary stature" territory here.

Who is to say there won't be houses outside of the Crownlands/ CR/ Reach and smallfolk listening to singers recounting the story of how Renly's ghost turned the tide at the Blackwater in 40-50 years time?

[DamoDega]

Give me an above average 'all-rounder' like Ned Stark or Garlan Tyrell

Wait dude, Garlan is basically super elite

Loras himself is considered one of the best swordmen of westeros and Garlan is basically bigger, stronger, more skilled than him (Loras admit it) that train 1 vs 4 for teh lulz

We don't know enough, but from what we know seem almost a Tyrell humble version of Jaime

...and he still got 2 hands :D

He's probably the best swordman of the kingdom at that point of the story

[Blackfyre Gateau]

I see Garlan as the less flashy, but more reliable in an actual battle type of knight/ swordsman, than Lorras. He strikes me as an authentic 'leader'.

When I say all-rounder, I mean he ticks the boxes of being A) Politically adept - not arrogant, or jumped up B) Outgoing, respectful and respected C) Willing to speak truth to power 'that was ill-done your grace' D) Emotionally intelligent - look at how he treats Sansa; E) Wise - He clearly sees Tyrion's true capabilities, whereas others only see their own prejudices.

[DamoDega]

Yeah once you put together all pieces he's likely the most underrated character of ASOIAF

Swordman close to prime Jamie, honorable and humble as Ned, put duty over glory and still does'nt blind follow the King, his House or whatever

[Red Tiger]

Yeah once you put together all pieces he's likely the most underrated character of ASOIAF

Swordman close to prime Jamie, honorable and humble as Ned, put duty over glory and still does'nt blind follow the King, his House or whatever

On the surface at least....

[sandywinder]

Really interesting theory!

I always find it bemusing just how obsessively 'fanboyish' some in the ASOIAF community gets over characters who for all intents and purposes we can take to be dead - Rhaegar and Arthur Dayne - based on retrospective scraps of information and opinion.

Does this include people obsessed about Ned Stark, who's account of the battle of ToJ is based merely on a feverish dream under the influence of milk of the poppy? At least Dayne's prowess is acknowledged by many including Jaime, Barristan Selmy and even Ned himself. How else do you gauge the ability of a dead man?

[Happy Ent]

Yeah once you put together all pieces he's likely the most underrated character of ASOIAF

There’s plenty of in-book evidence that Ser Garlan is the best sword in the realm. He’s also politically very skilled and since the Blackwater a very powerful lord in his own right.

Also, his wife is hot.

This has all been very well known on this board for a decade or so.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Whether Ned is good or not I wouldn't be surprised if he had a bit of the wolf's blood in the same manner that Jon goes beserk on Iron Emmett. I think the line is "They found him" holding his sister. So at some point, it would seem( to me anyways) that The Ned loses track of time, and only comes to at Lyanna. In such a case whether Ned is good or not he would probably credit 'they' with saving his life since he's not an elite swordsman. That is how he tells the story, "if not for Howland" he would have been killed.

[Lord Reaver]

Is Ned just being humble when he describes his abilities as a fighter?

Does anyone else in the series list him as average or slightly above average?

This question is impossible to answer, without a clearer definition of "average".

To elaborate: If your definition of average is the average soldier in any armed conflict, Ned is quite obviously far above this level, having been trained by knights from a very young age, something most have not. Same goes for anyone else who has had this chance of training, and are not incredibly incompetent or lacking in talent or desire to fight (like Sam, for instance), Jon fits in here, and it's the reason why he's so much better than the other recruits. Not because of any particular natural talent.

If, however, the average level is set according to his status, i.e. the average knight or lord who has had training, then Ned is much closer to this level. He does not seem to display any particular talent or desire for fighting (unlike his brother), so it is simply unlikely he would devote the required time and effort to truly become great despite not being naturally gifted.

Again, GRRM describing Ned as "competent" isn't very helpful, since the average knight would indeed be competent at swordplay. Otherwise, he'd be pretty much a failure.

[Blackfyre Gateau]

There’s plenty of in-book evidence that Ser Garlan is the best sword in the realm. He’s also politically very skilled and since the Blackwater a very powerful lord in his own right.

Also, his wife is hot.

This has all been very well known on this board for a decade or so.

I'd love Garlan to become a more centric player. I think he'd actually make either a fine King or a fine Hand. Most likely neither will happen...

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Loras is the best jouster in the realm. He's not top tier w/ a sword. His bro Garlan may be.

Someone made the point and it's true that there's a difference between sparring, tourney, and a real FIGHT. It's very plausible that a competent but not exceptional swordfighter like Ned, who is nothing special physically but who has a unique weapon in Ice, would be well served to not let real pros like Jaime see him fight to pick up on his tricks and weaknesses.