Was need really an average fighter?

[Bryanfury]

Actually you made the claim that competent put him above the average high lord.

No I didn't, thats one of your strawman arguments.

[Zoravar Singh]

Also, GRRM reportedly used competent to describe Tywin's abilities as the King's hand. So does this imply that Tywin Lannister was an average hand of the king, exactly equal to all other nobleman unless otherwise stated? After all, all other noblemen were literate and had been tutored by maesters since a very young age.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Yeah id says hes prob above adverage

Hes trained in the various knightly arts as every high lord does but unlike most hes had the rare upbringing where hes of adverage stature and had to train and spar regularly with 2 elite warriors both larger than him physically (brandon and robert)...given the size and skill difference id say hes had to adapt.

We know from his conversation with jon he took the attitiude of seeking out the best on the yard to sharpen himself as best he could for combat and even in later years was still doing this , in winterfell he was sparring with the huge bronze royce ...one of the better melee fighters in all of westeros.

Overall his fight at the tower of joy sums it up best, needed howland to save him from arguably the best ever but wasnt cut down with ease either

[Lord Reaver]

Also, GRRM reportedly used competent to describe Tywin's abilities as the King's hand. So does this imply that Tywin Lannister was an average hand of the king, exactly equal to all other nobleman unless otherwise stated? After all, all other noblemen were literate and had been tutored by maesters since a very young age.

One would think as GRRM used the word competent in relation to the office of Hand, the level with which to compare Tywin would be with other Hands, not Lords in general.

[Ingelheim]

Also, GRRM reportedly used competent to describe Tywin's abilities as the King's hand. So does this imply that Tywin Lannister was an average hand of the king, exactly equal to all other nobleman unless otherwise stated? After all, all other noblemen were literate and had been tutored by maesters since a very young age.

Competent COMPARED to the other Hands. Ned is a competent fighter, being above average (as he should be, being a Lord), but he's not TOP.

[The Fallen]

Im not devaluing anything. Theres about as much evidence to ned being a better than average fighter as ther is for edmure and theon, yet no one would argue that theyre better than average. I just call it like it is.

I would say Theon is better than your average nobleman. Edmure might also be, if we judge him by his performance at the fords.

But back to Ned. I went out of my way to point out that I don't consider him a great fighter. But competent, when said of a person, means efficient and capable. And this is the example used,"an infinitely competent mother of three". Now, you feel that competent means average. In which case the sentence reads as infinitely average, which doesn't make sense.

Now, I was where you're at; Martin said he's average, hmph! But he actually uses the word competent (and it's changed my mind), a word used by Martin to describe Tywin's ability as Hand. Does he mean average in that case also? I'm no Tywin fan and I'm constantly fighting against his supporters' claims of greatness. But I wouldn't call him average as a politician either. I'd probably go with above-average.

And I have no problem calling Ned slightly above-average. That actually conforms with his military past, especially the successes.

[The Fallen]

For those asking, Ned fought in Robert's Rebellion. He personally led the northern army, they would never fight under anyone else. He led them at the Battle of the Bells - fierce fighting in a town - in which Robert credits Ned with saving him. He fights at the Trident, where again he commands the northern army, by far the biggest of the rebels.

He then leads the van to keep the remnants of the loyalist army from getting to King's Landing. He enters the city where he intimidates Jaime with that cold, hard stare.

Then he leaves King's Landing to confront the Tyrell army at Storm's End. Mace dips his banners.

He also leads the northern forces against the Greyjoys during their rebellion. Jorah, fighting with the northern army is first over the wall. Now, we don't know where Ned was, but we know he leads from the front. According to Cat, Robb would always take the most dangerous mission and would never ask his men to do something he wouldn't do himself. Something he learned from Ned.

Ned might've fought with bodyguards, but so what? Wouldn't Robert Baratheon do the same? I'm not sure what point that proves.

Lastly, I would say that Ned was not as good as Addam Marbrand or Jorah. He's probably slightly below them. This may not mean much, but Brandon was really good, Benjen seemed to have been good, and even Lyanna was pretty good with a sword. Maybe Ned was the odd one. Or maybe he was slightly above average.

[Zoravar Singh]

Ok, this how I would rate Ned:

Top 3

Yohn Royce

Areo Hotah

Archibald Yronwood

Qarl The Maiden

Victarion Greyjoy

Balon Swann

Gerold Dayne

Bronn of Blackwater

Black Walder Frey

Victarion Greyjoy

Iron Emmett

Randyll Tarly

Jason Mallister

Jorah Mormont

Robar Royce

Waymar Royce

Benjen Stark

Arryk and Erryk ( left and right)

Nute the Barber

Rolland Storm, the Bastard of the Nightsong

Adam Marbrand

Tormund Giantsbane

Lyle Crakehall

Top 4

Brienne of Tarth

Tristifer Botley

Walder Rivers

Hosteen Frey

Rickard Karstark

Eddard Stark

Ilyn Payne

Lothor Brune

Arys Oakheart

Mandon Moore

Richard Horpe

Justin Massey

Jon Connington

Thoros Of Myr

Beric Dondarrion

Jon Snow

Top 5

Robb Stark

Daemon Sand

Meryn Trant

Ser Shadrich

Perwyn Frey

Jon Bettley

Ser Dermot

Ronnet Connington

Jory Cassell

Rodrik Cassell

Osmund Kettleblack

Osfryd Kettleblack

[Ali Colak]

I'm not sure if anyone has noticed this before, but for some reason, whenever discussions of the tower of Joy come up, people speak about it as if Ned was the best swordsman among those who attacked the tower. He's one of my favorite characters, but it’s quite possible that some of the six men who accompanied him were far better swords, even good enough to give the KG a hard time. It’s not unthinkable that there are a lot of good swords --especially among commoners (this is just an example by the way, I know the men with him weren't commoners)--, who go under the radar. Thus, the only reason Ned survived that battle might not be because of his own skill with the sword, but because he was accompanied by men who were great swordsman. And as to survival, two if two swordsmen are evenly matched, it’s not unthinkable that neither will survive.

As to Ned's competence, I honestly believe Ned was above average. In an age of enforced literacy, you have a lot of people who can read and write but will write cringeworthy essays. Competence implies a level of skill, and a person can't be called a competent writer merely because they can read and write, there's more to it than hat. Similarly, most lords are taught to fight as it is something expected of them, but assuming that all lords are competent would be incorrect. A competent writer would be above average, perhaps good enough to publish but never good enough to become a best seller. A competent swordsman would be above average, but nowhere near KG level.

[The Bedding]

This whole fasination with Ned and his sword comes from the show when Ned dueled Jaime and held his own against argueably the best swordsman in the 7 kingdoms. In the book they don't even fight, a horse falls on Ned and breaks his leg.

This. I kept running that scene through my mind as I read the previous posts deciding who was right. You are right. :fencing:

[willofDorne]

Ok, this how I would rate Ned:

Top 3

Yohn Royce

Areo Hotah

Archibald Yronwood

Qarl The Maiden

Victarion Greyjoy

Balon Swann

Gerold Dayne

Bronn of Blackwater

Black Walder Frey

Victarion Greyjoy

Iron Emmett

Randyll Tarly

Jason Mallister

Jorah Mormont

Robar Royce

Waymar Royce

Benjen Stark

Arryk and Erryk ( left and right)

Nute the Barber

Rolland Storm, the Bastard of the Nightsong

Adam Marbrand

Tormund Giantsbane

Lyle Crakehall

Top 4

Brienne of Tarth

Tristifer Botley

Walder Rivers

Hosteen Frey

Rickard Karstark

Eddard Stark

Ilyn Payne

Lothor Brune

Arys Oakheart

Mandon Moore

Richard Horpe

Justin Massey

Jon Connington

Thoros Of Myr

Beric Dondarrion

Jon Snow

Top 5

Robb Stark

Daemon Sand

Meryn Trant

Ser Shadrich

Perwyn Frey

Jon Bettley

Ser Dermot

Ronnet Connington

Jory Cassell

Rodrik Cassell

Osmund Kettleblack

Osfryd Kettleblack

This list is ridiculous

[Zoravar Singh]

This list is ridiculous

Feel free to make a better one then. And I did( by virtue of putting a lot more people in T3) relatively lower Med's ranking then the guy who originally posted it. And most knights of note are there in Tier 3.

[Lee-Sensei]

I would say Theon is better than your average nobleman. Edmure might also be, if we judge him by his performance at the fords.

But back to Ned. I went out of my way to point out that I don't consider him a great fighter. But competent, when said of a person, means efficient and capable. And this is the example used,"an infinitely competent mother of three". Now, you feel that competent means average. In which case the sentence reads as infinitely average, which doesn't make sense.

Now, I was where you're at; Martin said he's average, hmph! But he actually uses the word competent (and it's changed my mind), a word used by Martin to describe Tywin's ability as Hand. Does he mean average in that case also? I'm no Tywin fan and I'm constantly fighting against his supporters' claims of greatness. But I wouldn't call him average as a politician either. I'd probably go with above-average.

And I have no problem calling Ned slightly above-average. That actually conforms with his military past, especially the successes.

I never said you did. All im saying is that most lords are trained to fight by

Asters at arms and as such he is probably about as skilled as the average lord. Better than most, sincemost are conscripted peasants. It doesnt mwan hes bad and i dont see why its a big deal that he wasnt an exceptional fighter by the standards of the highborn. He had other strengths.

Bryanfury, youre not offering anything new so ill take it as a concession until you do.

[Zoravar Singh]

I never said you did. All im saying is that most lords are trained to fight by

Asters at arms and as such he is probably about as skilled as the average lord. Better than most, sincemost are conscripted peasants. It doesnt mwan hes bad and i dont see why its a big deal that he wasnt an exceptional fighter by the standards of the highborn. He had other strengths.

Use a spell-check? And no, most of the army is not conscripted peasants thrown into battle.I don't know from where you're getting this.There are tons of professional soldiers who are not Lords and Landed Knights, such as sellswords, hedge knights and full time men at arms. Even those who are conscripted normally receive some training before they are sent into battle (proven in the text). I don't know from where you're getting this. Anything in the text? Perhaps a quote from GRRM himself?

Bryanfury, youre not offering anything new so ill take it as a concession until you do.

You've not offered anything new after your first 2-3 posts if you come down to it.

[JoeyBanana]

i'm gonna go jump into the pit and share a thought.

Ned has Ice, the second most powerful sword in all of Westeros, and as a competent swordsman, even the greats would have mild trouble killing him with his serious reach and VS advantage. Greatswords are very effective for self-defense (or for strategic defense like holding a gate) usage in armored combat, especially against multiple opponents.

Now guess who's got a very smiliar, (arguably) superior weapon. Yep, Arthur Dayne. The guy who almost killed Ned.

I'm not saying he is an exceptional fighter or that Ice makes him one, mind you, but to claim he couldn't hold his own vs most soldiers or knights is going against everything we know so far. Competent implies at least above-average and his sword definitely makes him a lot more dangerous. No, he isn't one of the best but he's hardly the average joe with a lordship.

[Lee-Sensei]

Use a spell-check? And no, most of the army is not conscripted peasants thrown into battle.I don't know from where you're getting this.There are tons of professional soldiers who are not Lords and Landed Knights, such as sellswords, hedge knights and full time men at arms. Even those who are conscripted normally receive some training before they are sent into battle (proven in the text). I don't know from where you're getting this. Anything in the text? Perhaps a quote from GRRM himself?

You've not offered anything new after your first 2-3 posts if you come down to it.

Yes. There are hedge knights, sellswords and masters at arms, but most are peasants.

Infantry outnumbered cavalry by a considerable margin, but for the most part we are talking about feudal levies and peasant militia, with little discipline and less training. Although some lords do better than others. Tywin Lannister's infantry was notoriously well disciplined, and the City Watch of Lannisport is well trained as well... much better than their counterparts in Oldtown and King's Landing.

If youre going to debate this you should do your research first. Just do a quick search.

Ive already given a strong enough argument that nee was average for a high lord. Its up to you to prove me wrong.

[Zoravar Singh]

Ive already given a strong enough argument that nee was average for a high lord. Its up to you to prove me wrong.

I've already given a better argument that he was better than the average lord, from his position in the army ( The van/front), to him defeating the Kingsguard in a 7v3 situation, to his choice of weapon. Your argument is essentially all the Lords were trained and were as good as each other until otherwise specified. And IIRC, you need to prove me wrong first, because my argument is made on particular facts rather than yours, which is more on the lines of an unfounded hypothesis.

Yes. There are hedge knights, sellswords and masters at arms, but most are peasants.

Infantry outnumbered cavalry by a considerable margin, but for the most part we are talking about feudal levies and peasant militia, with little discipline and less training. Although some lords do better than others. Tywin Lannister's infantry was notoriously well disciplined, and the City Watch of Lannisport is well trained as well... much better than their counterparts in Oldtown and King's Landing.

Any quote from the books/George that says more than 50% of an army was peasant militia? Because the Westerlands army was composed of 33.3% mounted horse, which automatically implies a good level of prior training and not peasant militia. This means that out of the remaining 66.6%, only about 17.7% has to be trained for peasant recruits to form a minority in the army. This is easily the case when you take into account common men at arms,archers and the household guard of the lords who would be participating in the war.

Source for this:

In terms of numbers, George R.R. Martin was asked to approve of a series of figures for the Game of Thrones Roleplaying Game, published by Guardians of Order in 2005. He approved the following figures as the numbers generally believed to be accurate within the Seven Kingdoms, but noted that they did not tell the whole story, as some regions required more time to gather their forces (so Robb Stark could possibly have raised twice as many troops, if he'd had a lot more time to wait and was able to feed them all whilst they did so). He also noted that some of the figures may have been spread by misinformation, and indeed later confirmed in the text of A Feast for Crows that House Martell had inflated its own numbers so as to appear more formidable than they really were. The following should therefore be taken as a rough guideline only.

The Westerlands can raise about 50,000 soldiers at need. The ratio of foot to horse is unknown, although Tywin Lannister favors having about two to one. The Lannisters' immense wealth allows them to buy, train and equip the horses such numbers require, as well as hire large numbers of sellswords .

This means that till he decides to stretch his numbers with additional levies ( such as he did with Stafford when he was recruiting from teh gutters), he operates with his preferred ratio.

And please, extend to us the courtesy of a spell check and proper punctuation and capitalization.

[James Arryn]

People citing illustrations of 'competence' which themselves include qualifiers like 'very' or 'infinitely' are kinda missing the point.

I am literate.

I am somewhat literate.

I am barely literate.

I am very literate.

The qualifiers are the descriptors. The connective word just means an ability. There is no suggestion of relative value; a competent swordsman could just as easily be below average as above average...for a swordsman.

Like a driver. Can you drive? A competent driver is just one who isn't dangerous on the roads. It does not in any way imply you are better or worse than an average driver who is also not dangerous on the road. If anything competence is usually established as a floor, like a bare minimum. The alternative to competent is incompetent.

Normally when it is used without a qualifier it suggests mediocrity, but that's just a guess. There is literally nothing in the books or SSM's to suggest Ned is remarkable in any way as a fighter, and in his only illustrated fight he is handily beaten, though by a noted warrior. But in a book which stresses martial skill where it is present, the lack of any emphasis on Ned's traits as a warrior again are suggestive of mediocrity. His skills as a leader/general are much more likely to be notable, although again that's not made explicit so much as repeatedly implied.

[Bryanfury]

Bryanfury, youre not offering anything new so ill take it as a concession until you do.

And I'll take this as an admission of defeat, an acknowledgement you cannot refute what I say, and a concession that you can't defend what you say either. Thanks and goodnight

[Lee-Sensei]

I've already given a better argument that he was better than the average lord, from his position in the army ( The van/front), to him defeating the Kingsguard in a 7v3 situation, to his choice of weapon. Your argument is essentially all the Lords were trained and were as good as each other until otherwise specified. And IIRC, you need to prove me wrong first, because my argument is made on particular facts rather than yours, which is more on the lines of an unfounded hypothesis.

Any quote from the books/George that says more than 50% of an army was peasant militia? Because the Westerlands army was composed of 33.3% mounted horse, which automatically implies a good level of prior training and not peasant militia. This means that out of the remaining 66.6%, only about 17.7% has to be trained for peasant recruits to form a minority in the army. This is easily the case when you take into account common men at arms,archers and the household guard of the lords who would be participating in the war.

Source for this:

This means that till he decides to stretch his numbers with additional levies ( such as he did with Stafford when he was recruiting from teh gutters), he operates with his preferred ratio.

And please, extend to us the courtesy of a spell check and proper punctuation and capitalization.

Robb had an honor guard of 30 skilled warriors defending him. Given that ned said the most important thing for a commander is their voice, he probably fought the same way.

Ned would be the first person to admit that he only survived because of howla d reed. Not only that, but they were outnumbered. This isnt the lord of the rings. You have no facts. Ned is never mentioned as being an exceptional fighter. Its up to you to prove that hes better than most lords and youve failed to do that in every level.

Youre nitpicking because incaught you. Jus admit youre wrong. Firstly, george has said that the lannisters are an exception and that tywins army is very disciplined and well trained. Secondly, where did you get those numbers crom?

Dont worry about it. I wont be replying to yiur posts here anymore unless you bring something new to the table. Concession accepted.