Lady of Butterflies Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Yes. The Craster's plot, for example. The writting was so bad, Bran and co. being captured were awful. The sexual violence was just unncessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beric175 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 @Dornish Vinegar: I will ue an example to make my point here very quickly. I actually think many of the elements that offend people on the show like white savior Dany are there to make people react in an offended manner deliberatley. Sort of like someone poking you with a stick and asking you if it's annoying and if the answer is yes, you can try to not support that kind of behavior in the future or pay attention to it when previously you might not have given it any thought whatsoever. It also gives the show rewatch value in that moments you thught of as being one thing previously will get a different interpretation once future developmets have been revealed to you. I think that with my Dany example the show has actually given us both Dany's feelings at the moment when she took yunkai and made us realize later what horrible decisions she made and how self-congratulatory and arrogant she was and the same thing with arbitrarily killing the masters. They do not have to necessarily make her look bad in that 'Mhysa' or 'injustice with justice' moment for instance because they know where they'll take her in the future. Sure, unsullied viewers will feel offended occasionally but in the end the show made sure to show us the flipside of that in season 4. So I have to disagree with you idea that the show does not reflect in advance what it's depicting. It's just that they know that they'll get around to dealing with it later on, rather than spell out for us the problems of the character's behavior in the moment. I feel they rather want to make thematic points that do not follow through with the practical logic sompetimes (Arya and the Hound at the Vale) but I can accept that if the point they're making about the story or the character is interesting and with Arya they kept it ambiguous enough what she was thinking in season 4 for it to be a good point of discussion. if you would rather talk about the improbability of them leaving that spot rather than about the randomness and arbitrariness of an unlucky fate that's fine but it's not especially stimulating as a debate. I can also say that the knights didn't believe them because Arya started laughing like a crazy person and so they'd not believe everything they told them right away most likely. I know that lots of people liked Oberyn from the show more than the character from the books because this character on the show had charisma and personality but the fact that he wasn't a POV character in the book made me care a lot less about him and his plans for Myrcella and Tyrion to be honest. As to characterizations being inconsistent, I don't agree, simply because no person is constantly one thing throughout the entire day each day of the year. A smart and collected person can lose their cool also from time to time, that does not make them inconsistent. It means that they have more to them than can be observed on the first glance. If D&D didn't care they probably wouldn't spend a whole year away from their families making 10 episodes a season nonstop with only 2 weeks of vacation.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beric175 Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Actually the Craster's plot was quite good because it allowed us to see the abusive nature of Bran's powers that needed to be established, it allowed Jon to be more of a decisive hero and gave Bran more autonomy and agency in his decision to go forward in his quest whilst ironically avenging the man who made him a cripple in the first place; it made the NW kill their own brothers and so even if the righteous people won that time (a rarity on the show) it was still teinted by the fact that the NW had to fight its own members and it allowed Craster's wives to make their own choice not to go with the people who they consider to be part of the group that abused them. So you can say that that stuff does not interest you but you cannot say it was devoid of meaning. There was enough there to actually make it comelling and i feel lots of readers dismissed it outright because it was not in the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Actually the Craster's plot was quite good because it allowed us to see the abusive nature of Bran's powers that needed to be established, it allowed Jon to be more of a decisive hero and gave Bran more autonomy and agency in his decision to go forward in his quest whilst ironically avenging the man who made him a cripple in the first place; it made the NW kill their own brothers and so even if the righteous people won that time (a rarity on the show) it was still teinted by the fact that the NW had to fight its own members and it allowed Craster's wives to make their own choice not to go with the people who they consider to be part of the group that abused them. So you can say that that stuff does not interest you but you cannot say it was devoid of meaning. There was enough there to actually make it comelling and i feel lots of readers dismissed it outright because it was not in the books.I feel the same way about the CK scenes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 The fact that people have differing opinions about that scene should be "proof" that there is no consensus. Some people liked it, others didn't. By that logic every scene ever made is fine, if some people like it. Are twilight movies good because a lot of people like them? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 By that logic every scene ever made is fine, if some people like it. Are twilight movies good because a lot of people like them? I don't think so. And what gives us the right to judge what other people think? Again, everything is subjective. I had absolutely no problems whatsoever with the gate scene. None. I thought it was a nice touch to really put a point on the irony of the Hound's situation. I didn't sit there and mull over whether the guard was a knight of renown or what the politics of the Vale were at that time. It doesn't matter. All that matters is Arya's reaction. I don't see ANYONE thinking she's really Arya Stark after laughing like a maniac at the news of her aunt's death. Why should they? They don't know Sansa's there, and the leadership of the Vale is in limbo, so I am not at all surprised that they left with no problems. I'm not sure why my reasoning is less valid than someone else's in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 The fact that people have differing opinions about that scene should be "proof" that there is no consensus. Some people liked it, others didn't. Tell us again which person you are. Do you enjoy the show, cuz it's not clear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breakfastfestival Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 People can think whatever they want, but is it really worth analysing everything to the minutest detail in order to prove it's fallibility? I personally couldn't be bothered and won't argue with anyone about that kind of insignificant thing. But each to their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Antony Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 The fallibility of D&Ds choices is blatantly obvious. Not like we have to analyze super hard to point out all the flaws of their decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 And what gives us the right to judge what other people think?Again, everything is subjective. I had absolutely no problems whatsoever with the gate scene. None. I thought it was a nice touch to really put a point on the irony of the Hound's situation. I didn't sit there and mull over whether the guard was a knight of renown or what the politics of the Vale were at that time. It doesn't matter. All that matters is Arya's reaction. I don't see ANYONE thinking she's really Arya Stark after laughing like a maniac at the news of her aunt's death. Why should they? They don't know Sansa's there, and the leadership of the Vale is in limbo, so I am not at all surprised that they left with no problems.I'm not sure why my reasoning is less valid than someone else's in this case.No. Not everything is subjective. 1+1 is 2 even if I say that for me it is 3. And even on tv there has to be some kind of logic involved for what happens on screen. If you can gloss over it and enjoy the show, good for you. But that doesn't change facts, which in this case is that the scene made no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breakfastfestival Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 The fallibility of D&Ds choices is blatantly obvious. Not like we have to analyze super hard to point out all the flaws of their decisions. Sometimes, yes. Not as often as people on here would like to believe though. People look hard for flaws, no doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 No. Not everything is subjective. 1+1 is 2 even if I say that for me it is 3. And even on tv there has to be some kind of logic involved for what happens on screen. If you can gloss over it and enjoy the show, good for you. But that doesn't change facts, which in this case is that the scene made no sense. ...I meant everything in terms of opinions, not facts. I hate Twilight and think it's rubbish, but one of my best friends loves it. So why am I right and she's not? Same with GoT. Some people here think the showrunners are terrible writers and criticize everything that they change. Other people like the changes. Many people like some changes and dislike others. So what's the 'right' answer? There isn't one. And the idea that people think they can provide incontrovertible proof that the showrunners are bad writers is laughable, because there's no such thing as 'proof' when it comes to opinions. That's basically my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 You do realize that opinions can be wrong right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 You do realize that opinions can be wrong right? Not when it comes to subjective material. Here are two examples: "The earth is flat". "This show is bad". Now, how do you prove each of these opinions right or wrong? The first one is easy, the second one is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Not when it comes to subjective material.Here are two examples:"The earth is flat"."This show is bad".Now, how do you prove each of these opinions right or wrong? The first one is easy, the second one is impossible.It's not impossible. Unless again, you think that every show made is of the same quality, since they are impossible to judge objectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janicia Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 No. Not everything is subjective. 1+1 is 2 even if I say that for me it is 3. And even on tv there has to be some kind of logic involved for what happens on screen. If you can gloss over it and enjoy the show, good for you. But that doesn't change facts, which in this case is that the scene made no sense. Do you hold the books to that same standard? Many of the most heavily criticized aspects of the TV show are present in the books. Ample questionable sex scenes. Glossing over military campaigns rather than attempting to portray them accurately. Things that, with the information given to the audience so far, make no sense. (In the books, off the top of my head: Manderly's mission to Davos, pretty much everything Jaqen has done, Benjen joining the Watch, the Pink Letter, Stannis deciding to start a major military campaign in the Northern winter, Euron's plans, Bolton's plans). Future books will presumably shed light on the stuff that just doesn't make sense right now. But the books don't feel compelled to present the logic for things as they happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Do you hold the books to that same standard? Many of the most heavily criticized aspects of the TV show are present in the books. Ample questionable sex scenes. Glossing over military campaigns rather than attempting to portray them accurately. Things that, with the information given to the audience so far, make no sense. (In the books, off the top of my head: Manderly's mission to Davos, pretty much everything Jaqen has done, Benjen joining the Watch, the Pink Letter, Stannis deciding to start a major military campaign in the Northern winter, Euron's plans, Bolton's plans). Future books will presumably shed light on the stuff that just doesn't make sense right now. But the books don't feel compelled to present the logic for things as they happen. I do and I don't see how this is connected to the topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 It's not impossible. Unless again, you think that every show made is of the same quality, since they are impossible to judge objectively. I don't think the quality of every show or book is the same...but my opinion is heavily influenced by my own tastes. So is everyone else's. So yes, it is absolutely impossible to be objective about whether a show or book is good or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonBranRickon Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Several season four gaffes have made me believe that they have gotten careless with the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Game of Thrones Reference Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 By that logic every scene ever made is fine, if some people like it. Are twilight movies good because a lot of people like them? I don't think so. The twilight movies aren't critically acclaimed and aren't nominated for prestigious awards every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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