Game of Thrones getting a big head?

[Dornish Vinegar]

@Dornish Vinegar: I will ue an example to make my point here very quickly. I actually think many of the elements that offend people on the show like white savior Dany are there to make people react in an offended manner deliberatley. Sort of like someone poking you with a stick and asking you if it's annoying and if the answer is yes, you can try to not support that kind of behavior in the future or pay attention to it when previously you might not have given it any thought whatsoever. It also gives the show rewatch value in that moments you thught of as being one thing previously will get a different interpretation once future developmets have been revealed to you. I think that with my Dany example the show has actually given us both Dany's feelings at the moment when she took yunkai and made us realize later what horrible decisions she made and how self-congratulatory and arrogant she was and the same thing with arbitrarily killing the masters. They do not have to necessarily make her look bad in that 'Mhysa' or 'injustice with justice' moment for instance because they know where they'll take her in the future. Sure, unsullied viewers will feel offended occasionally but in the end the show made sure to show us the flipside of that in season 4. So I have to disagree with you idea that the show does not reflect in advance what it's depicting. It's just that they know that they'll get around to dealing with it later on, rather than spell out for us the problems of the character's behavior in the moment. I feel they rather want to make thematic points that do not follow through with the practical logic sompetimes (Arya and the Hound at the Vale) but I can accept that if the point they're making about the story or the character is interesting and with Arya they kept it ambiguous enough what she was thinking in season 4 for it to be a good point of discussion. if you would rather talk about the improbability of them leaving that spot rather than about the randomness and arbitrariness of an unlucky fate that's fine but it's not especially stimulating as a debate. I can also say that the knights didn't believe them because Arya started laughing like a crazy person and so they'd not believe everything they told them right away most likely.

I know that lots of people liked Oberyn from the show more than the character from the books because this character on the show had charisma and personality but the fact that he wasn't a POV character in the book made me care a lot less about him and his plans for Myrcella and Tyrion to be honest.

As to characterizations being inconsistent, I don't agree, simply because no person is constantly one thing throughout the entire day each day of the year. A smart and collected person can lose their cool also from time to time, that does not make them inconsistent. It means that they have more to them than can be observed on the first glance.

If D&D didn't care they probably wouldn't spend a whole year away from their families making 10 episodes a season nonstop with only 2 weeks of vacation....

I'm not sure how Dany having trouble in-universe down the road in Season 4 and beyond has any bearing on how the Myhsa scene is problematic in the real world, or how it absolves the scene of its problematic elements.

Whether or not people liked show!Oberyn more than book!Oberyn has no bearing on whether or not show!Oberyn had some problematic elements attached to his character (he did).

I see what you're saying about people being different from day to day, and while that's very true, I would argue that the show goes far beyond that, at least when it comes to some characters (Cersei and Jaime spring to mind).

Lastly, I'm sure D&D care, I never said they didn't, and if I implied it I apologize because to say that would be absolutely dickish. It's clear that they dedicate a lot to the show. I'm just saying that they are products of their culture and as such, the show is going to represent the prejudices of that culture in the final product. It's important to note that that is very probably not done maliciously or consciously, but from a position where those prejudices are just clearly not examined in the making of the show. That lack of intent, however, does not make the end result any less problematic.

I'm sorry, I don't want to get in a big thread-consuming argument about this like the Arya/Hound/Vale scene did, but I've only just noticed this response to my post.

[Dragon in the North]

@Dofs: Actually Cersei was strongest in season 4 because she had one goal: have Tyrion killed and she did so consistently and even though her seduction of the judges was different from the book version the fact that some people weren't sure if she was serious or not (she wasn't, as Obeyn deduced right away that she was trying to sway him against Tyrion) shows that the ambiguity in the moment was well done. There is even a shot in the Oberyn/Mountain fiht where the camera focuses on Gregor and then on her as he is killing Oberyn (who also is first the focus and then Tyrion, meaning that it's actually about Cersei killing Tyrion in that momet..or so at least everybody thinks in that situation).

Actually Sansa called out LF's lies on the boat in episode 4, she lied to Lysa in episode 5 by belittling herself in her aunt's eyes and so for casual viewers that might not seem like much and then by episode 8 she has found the confidence to mix truth and lies together in a way that made a significant difference. By that point she knew what kind of power she potentially had over LF and so she decided to use it to her advantage. I don't think the transition was abupt at all. It was built up from the very first épisodes of season 4.

Actually, the sept scene is rape in the book because Jaime has no control over Cersei's will and so had she not at some point decided to give in it would have been much clearer to readers that it was rape, even though Martin did not intend to write it that way (that's why the sex scenes he writes are terrible). Ultimately jaime had already forced himself on her by the time she said 'yes' in the books and the only reason people are not calling him a rapist is because it's his perspective and he does not see it as rape so...yeah i'd suggest you all read it again because if a woman says no at the beginning and then after he already started having sex with her says 'yes' it's still rape because he had already forced her to have sex by that time.

No, I thought of that and went back and checked after the controversy blew up. Jaime didn't begin having sex until after Cercei said yes.

[Le Cygne]

Not to mention GRRM said the same, and this is how it read, the no was about the fear of discovery, the yes was about the sex, and Jaime knew it, as did many readers:

"Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her."

http://www.tvguide.com/news/george-rr-martin-controversial-game-of-thrones-rape-scene-1080744.aspx

Handled properly, this scene was a turning point, their old perceptions of each other were at play at first, but then they realized they had both changed, and things were never the same after this... in the books. Hence the symbolism of sex on the altar before the dead Joffrey, which really served no point on the show.

[igrewupinKL]

to be honest, the sept scene was not very iconic for me when i was reading the book. and didn't really outrage me at all in the show, i just thought it didn't fit Jaime's personality in this stage of his journey.

the scene that threw me off was jaime in the white tower. totally in character for Cersei but i really thought this is when they would have let Jaime reject HER. It needs to happen next season.

[Tolsimir]

to be honest, the sept scene was not very iconic for me when i was reading the book. and didn't really outrage me at all in the show, i just thought it didn't fit Jaime's personality in this stage of his journey.

the scene that threw me off was jaime in the white tower. totally in character for Cersei but i really thought this is when they would have let Jaime reject HER. It needs to happen next season.

Tbh with the way things are in the show right now I think Cersei will reject HIM based on the freeing of Tyrion.

[Le Cygne]

I think they almost see it as a competition, if Jaime looks too good, Tyrion won't look quite so fabulous by comparison. They keep adding bad to Jaime and taking away good, while doing the opposite with Tyrion, taking away bad and adding good.

The murder of Shae turned to self-defense was the last in a long line... They wiped out that as well as Tysha, what GRRM terms the great crimes of his soul:

With Shae, it's a much more deliberate and in some ways a crueler thing. It's not the action of a second, because he's strangling her slowly and she's fighting, trying to get free. He could let go at any time. But his anger and his sense of betrayal is so strong that he doesn't stop until it's done and that's probably the blackest deed that he's ever done. It's the great crime of his soul along with what he did with his first wife by abandoning her after the little demonstration Lord Tywin put on.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/

[Dofs]

@Dofs: Actually Cersei was strongest in season 4 because she had one goal: have Tyrion killed and she did so consistently and even though her seduction of the judges was different from the book version the fact that some people weren't sure if she was serious or not (she wasn't, as Obeyn deduced right away that she was trying to sway him against Tyrion) shows that the ambiguity in the moment was well done. There is even a shot in the Oberyn/Mountain fiht where the camera focuses on Gregor and then on her as he is killing Oberyn (who also is first the focus and then Tyrion, meaning that it's actually about Cersei killing Tyrion in that momet..or so at least everybody thinks in that situation).

I seriously don't remember all the details from that season but I definitely remember how her behavior towards Jaime was randomly changing from episode to episode, they way how she treated power also was quite random. Cersei's dialogue with Tywin in the last episode made me question just what show Cersei actually wants?

Actually Sansa called out LF's lies on the boat in episode 4, she lied to Lysa in episode 5 by belittling herself in her aunt's eyes and so for casual viewers that might not seem like much and then by episode 8 she has found the confidence to mix truth and lies together in a way that made a significant difference. By that point she knew what kind of power she potentially had over LF and so she decided to use it to her advantage. I don't think the transition was abupt at all. It was built up from the very first épisodes of season 4.

I dunno, you certainly are right about how Sansa was handling lies but that shouldn't change her behavior that much in such a short period of time. To start lying is one thing, to completely change your behavior is another thing.

Actually, the sept scene is rape in the book because Jaime has no control over Cersei's will and so had she not at some point decided to give in it would have been much clearer to readers that it was rape, even though Martin did not intend to write it that way (that's why the sex scenes he writes are terrible). Ultimately jaime had already forced himself on her by the time she said 'yes' in the books and the only reason people are not calling him a rapist is because it's his perspective and he does not see it as rape so...yeah i'd suggest you all read it again because if a woman says no at the beginning and then after he already started having sex with her says 'yes' it's still rape because he had already forced her to have sex by that time.

No, in the book, if Cersei really did not want to have sex, nothing would have happened. You are forgetting the fact that Jaime lacked a right hand and at that point could barely do anything with his left. It was physically impossible for him to have sex without help and Cersei actually gave it. And even when she at first was telling 'no', he still managed to undress her and lift her to the altar which would have been impossible if she seriously resisted it in any way.

But anyway, the point I was making was not about rape. Just sex between them in the sept was stupid. It worked in the book because it was their reunion scene. In the show Jaime was in KL for weeks and did not have sex with Cersei yet. If he really was that desperate for it, he would have attacked her long ago, when they were together alone in a not a public place (like they were in the first episode). So apparently he was not that desperate, yet still attacked her in the sept, in front of his dead son, in a public place that anybody could have entered at any given moment (even in the books he made sure nobody would disturb them). Why? Because dead teenagers turn him on so much?

Also, that scene had no build up, no consequences, no character development came out of it, the relationship between the twins stayed exactly the same as it was before the scene and it was never mentioned again so you can cut it out and miss absolutely nothing. The only reason why the scene is in the show is because D&D could not leave out such a nasty moment, even if it doesn't make sense anymore with the changes they have made. The sept scene exists entirely for the sake of controversy, shock value and nothing more (and they received the controversy, just not how it was intended).

And scenes like these are creeping into D&D's writing more and more, scenes that are created for reasons other than to tell a story or to develop a character and that really starts to hurt the show a lot.

[igrewupinKL]

Tbh with the way things are in the show right now I think Cersei will reject HIM based on the freeing of Tyrion.

this is likely :unsure:

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I seriously don't remember all the details from that season but I definitely remember how her behavior towards Jaime was randomly changing from episode to episode, they way how she treated power also was quite random. Cersei's dialogue with Tywin in the last episode made me question just what show Cersei actually wants?

I dunno, you certainly are right about how Sansa was handling lies but that shouldn't change her behavior that much in such a short period of time. To start lying is one thing, to completely change your behavior is another thing.

No, in the book, if Cersei really did not want to have sex, nothing would have happened. You are forgetting the fact that Jaime lacked a right hand and at that point could barely do anything with his left. It was physically impossible for him to have sex without help and Cersei actually gave it. And even when she at first was telling 'no', he still managed to undress her and lift her to the altar which would have been impossible if she seriously resisted it in any way.

But anyway, the point I was making was not about rape. Just sex between them in the sept was stupid. It worked in the book because it was their reunion scene. In the show Jaime was in KL for weeks and did not have sex with Cersei yet. If he really was that desperate for it, he would have attacked her long ago, when they were together alone in a not a public place (like they were in the first episode). So apparently he was not that desperate, yet still attacked her in the sept, in front of his dead son, in a public place that anybody could have entered at any given moment (even in the books he made sure nobody would disturb them). Why? Because dead teenagers turn him on so much?

Also, that scene had no build up, no consequences, no character development came out of it, the relationship between the twins stayed exactly the same as it was before the scene and it was never mentioned again so you can cut it out and miss absolutely nothing. The only reason why the scene is in the show is because D&D could not leave out such a nasty moment, even if it doesn't make sense anymore with the changes they have made. The sept scene exists entirely for the sake of controversy, shock value and nothing more (and they received the controversy, just not how it was intended).

And scenes like these are creeping into D&D's writing more and more, scenes that are created for reasons other than to tell a story or to develop a character and that really starts to hurt the show a lot.

The bolded is spot on, and your post deserves a bow. :bowdown:

I do agree with your last paragraph as well. It brings the Craster's Keep Rapefest to mind. That scene was beyond.....weird. The actors and actresses looked bored with the extraneous, never ending rape fest that Karl was running.

[sj4iy]

to be honest, the sept scene was not very iconic for me when i was reading the book. and didn't really outrage me at all in the show, i just thought it didn't fit Jaime's personality in this stage of his journey.

the scene that threw me off was jaime in the white tower. totally in character for Cersei but i really thought this is when they would have let Jaime reject HER. It needs to happen next season.

Well, I think his character is too weak to reject her when she's right there...he only gets the strength to do it when he's away from her.

[igrewupinKL]

Well, I think his character is too weak to reject her when she's right there...he only gets the strength to do it when he's away from her.

But we know thats not true with his characterisation from the book

[sj4iy]

But we know thats not true with his characterisation from the book

...but this is the characterization in the show, not the book.

[igrewupinKL]

...but this is the characterization in the show, not the book.

he's character isn't weak on the show either, up until this season he had gone through everything book jaime had also gone through so it didn't make sense for him to act this way after his journey with Brienne.

[sj4iy]

he's character isn't weak on the show either, up until this season he had gone through everything book jaime had also gone through so it didn't make sense for him to act this way after his journey with Brienne.

Eh, I see it differently. Cersei knows how to manipulate him. He only starts to realize it once he's away from her...but when he was back with her once again, he lost his resolve. He's human, it happens.

[MissMatchedEyes]

I agree with you completely. I did not like the way they left it bwtn Cersei and Jaime. So now she's just going to be pissed at him for letting Tyrion go and that's it?

[FalseKnight]

Tell us again which person you are. Do you enjoy the show, cuz it's not clear....

In my time on this board, Sj4iy has been one of the most level headed and objective posters in both praising and criticizing the show. Your little crusade against her in this thread is frankly embarrassing.

[Pipewrenched]

In my time on this board, Sj4iy has been one of the most level headed and objective posters in both praising and criticizing the show. Your little crusade against her in this thread is frankly

embarrassing.

Indeed..