Heresy 131 Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised

[oursisthefury69]

@KingoftheStarks Regarding your (paraphrase) "reminds me of story's where characters make the evil prophecy true because of their attempts to previously avert it " comment. I cant begin to imagine anything Rhaegar did that aided the resurgence of the Others

[Hrafntýr]

@KingoftheStarks Regarding your (paraphrase) "reminds me of story's where characters make the evil prophecy true because of their attempts to previously avert it " comment. I cant begin to imagine anything Rhaegar did that aided the resurgence of the Others

Well, given that we know next to nothing about the resurgence of the Others, it's hard to say (what provoked it? when?). But it seems plausible to imagine that perhaps Rhaegar had no idea what "the song of ice and fire" might entail; at the very least whatever he did with Lyanna set in motion events the consequences of which are still unfolding.

[King of Winters]

@KingoftheStarks Regarding your (paraphrase) "reminds me of story's where characters make the evil prophecy true because of their attempts to previously avert it " comment. I cant begin to imagine anything Rhaegar did that aided the resurgence of the Others

He caused the fire at Summerhall, as a baby, that triggered the resurfacing of the WW.

[King of Winters]

Well, given that we know next to nothing about the resurgence of the Others, it's hard to say (what provoked it? when?). But it seems plausible to imagine that perhaps Rhaegar had no idea what "the song of ice and fire" might entail; at the very least whatever he did with Lyanna set in motion events the consequences of which are still unfolding.

I see the events he caused, along with Brandon and Lya, as just effecting the Game of Thrones, and nothing to do with the North or WW. He may have wanted Lya in regards to the Dragon has three heads prophecy, but it only effected the Game, not the Song.

[Black Crow]

Well, given that we know next to nothing about the resurgence of the Others, it's hard to say (what provoked it? when?). But it seems plausible to imagine that perhaps Rhaegar had no idea what "the song of ice and fire" might entail; at the very least whatever he did with Lyanna set in motion events the consequences of which are still unfolding.

Without straying off topic here this comes back as well to the nature of the Others. If they are indeed Craster's sons they are merely janissaries not principals and we should therefore look to who would be upset by the abduction [willing or otherwise] of Lyanna in order to try and create the longed-for hero.

If the Starks are bound to Ice as we've discussed before, then the abduction of a daughter of Winterfell by an agent of Fire is of grave concern to the Old powers and reason enough for them to waken again.

[Frey family reunion]

Great points, though more specifically on this one than a "First Men prophecy", I'd say a magical vision experienced by Greendreamers, dragon dreams, and visions in the fire (and possibly the Rhoynish had some sort of similar prophetic visions as well that we just haven't heard completely about).

They're all seeing the future, and interpreting it into their own concept of prophesy.

You could be right, and her vision/prophecy might have been linked to the PTWP prophecy by her audience. Even though I am still skeptical that there would be such a possibility of a mistranslation of a Valyrian or Rhoynish prophecy. The fact that Aemon equates TPTWP to the War for the Dawn, and Rhaegar equates TPTWP with the Song of Ice and Fire leads me to believe that TPTWP is a Westerosi prophecy.

[oursisthefury69]

King of Starks " He (Rhaegar) caused the fire at Summerhall, as a baby, that triggered the resurfacing of the Others." I truly don't know where to begin if your being genuine, and considering the amount of time that's gone into your account I can only assume you are.

1. First of all not even starting with the actual content of that quote. You were just saying/implying that the actions Rhaegar took to ensure TPTWP prophecy are what caused the need for TPTWP, effectively causing the problem he as seeking to prevent. You now say that his literal birth is what caused the resurgence of the Others. So what prophecy driven precautions did Rhaegar take in the instance of being bore into the world? Not self aborting?

2. There is Zero evidence or slightest inklings that Summerhall and the Others are connected. Unless Craster went there to figure out how to sacrifice to the Others im not seeing it.

3. Gona just keep it simple at this point. How do you suggest Summerhall caused the Others reemergence? What text or anything supports this? How do you even begin to rationalize saying Rhaegar caused the fires? He was either unborn/just born, I don't believe he had much influence on the decision making. In the event someone misinterpreted a vision of a dragon being born at Summerhall for Rhaegars birth, that is not Rhaegar "causing" it, the people that caused it were those misinterpreting prophecy's and attempting to hatch dragons, not again a new-born babe for the sake of understanding the definition of the word cause

[Frey family reunion]

The point, I think, is what King of the Starks said. The point is not that somebody will be identified retrospectively or otherwise as Azor Ahaii, the rightful heir to the Iron Throne or even Rumpelstiltskin. What matters is that the world is descending into bloody chaos, spiralling into the Heart of Darkness, because various parties whether through faith, avarice or even sheer bloody-mindedness are intent on making this particular Manx cat.

Well I think the problem comes from the assumption that Azor Ahai is a messiah or an heir to the Iron Throne. I think first and foremost it is a textual clue. I think by the end of the books we'll look back and say this character (or these characters) all in various ways fulfilled these visions/prophecies that we heard about. Now whether they ultimately helped bring about the salvation of Westeros or its destruction is another issue.

[Frey family reunion]

Well, given that we know next to nothing about the resurgence of the Others, it's hard to say (what provoked it? when?). But it seems plausible to imagine that perhaps Rhaegar had no idea what "the song of ice and fire" might entail; at the very least whatever he did with Lyanna set in motion events the consequences of which are still unfolding.

And I think that's going to be the ultimate irony of the story. Melisandre and Rhaegar have visions/interpet prophecies. They in turn misinterprete what they are seeing/reading. They try to actively bring about their misinterpretation of the visions/prophecies, and they fail in spectacular fashion. Yet their various failures help to bring about the real meaning of the prophecies/visions.

[Mithras]

And I think that's going to be the ultimate irony of the story. Melisandre and Rhaegar have visions/interpet prophecies. They in turn misinterprete what they are seeing/reading. They try to actively bring about their misinterpretation of the visions/prophecies, and they fail in spectacular fashion. Yet their various failures help to bring about the real meaning of the prophecies/visions.

I made a long post about this in this thread

[King of Winters]

King of Starks " He (Rhaegar) caused the fire at Summerhall, as a baby, that triggered the resurfacing of the Others." I truly don't know where to begin if your being genuine, and considering the amount of time that's gone into your account I can only assume you are.

1. First of all not even starting with the actual content of that quote. You were just saying/implying that the actions Rhaegar took to ensure TPTWP prophecy are what caused the need for TPTWP, effectively causing the problem he as seeking to prevent. You now say that his literal birth is what caused the resurgence of the Others. So what prophecy driven precautions did Rhaegar take in the instance of being bore into the world? Not self aborting?

2. There is Zero evidence or slightest inklings that Summerhall and the Others are connected. Unless Craster went there to figure out how to sacrifice to the Others im not seeing it.

3. Gona just keep it simple at this point. How do you suggest Summerhall caused the Others reemergence? What text or anything supports this? How do you even begin to rationalize saying Rhaegar caused the fires? He was either unborn/just born, I don't believe he had much influence on the decision making. In the event someone misinterpreted a vision of a dragon being born at Summerhall for Rhaegars birth, that is not Rhaegar "causing" it, the people that caused it were those misinterpreting prophecy's and attempting to hatch dragons, not again a new-born babe for the sake of understanding the definition of the word cause

I was actually joking about Rhaegar causing the fire, though I do think that Summerhall could be connected to the WW resurfacing. It's been said before, because it's a tragedy of the opposite of Ice, the WW could've felt it disturb the imbalance of the ice, and reemerge again.

Craster is also thought to have been around the age of a young man back then, and so the WW picked his services up early on.

[oursisthefury69]

Black Crow, " If the Starks are bound to the powers of ice as we've discussed before, then the abduction of a daughter of Winterfell by an agent of fire is of grave concern to the old powers and reason enough for them to waken again."

So your saying that whatever unknown force/entity driving the Others was all-knowing/powerful enough to know of the disappearance of Lyanna and then be offended to the point of using said powers to reawaken ancient blood thirsty ice demons, without being able to come to the knowledge that it wasn't the abduction-rape that Robert propagated it to be?

If your going to go the " X discourtesy done to the Starks before the story started upset and woke the Others," id sooner go with The Lord of and his heir to Winterfell being burned and strangled to death publically by somebody you could actually call an "agent of fire", Aerys.

And what exactly is this proposing? What I get from that is the Others are rising to avenge the mistreated Starks of Winterfell, so whats their goal? Killing all of the dead Targaryens? Or just Dany?, and tough luck to any and all people in the half a world between the Others and the single living Targ?

[Mithras]

To discredit Aemon more;

“You must tell them, Sam,” he said. “The archmaesters. You must make them understand. The men who were at the Citadel when I was have been dead for fifty years. These others never knew me. My letters . . . in Oldtown, they must have read like the ravings of an old man whose wits had fled.”

It looks like good old maester sent ravens after ravens to the archmaesters about his opinions on the prophecies. When he said this, his wits were really fleeing.

[Frey family reunion]

I made a long post about this in this thread

It's a very good thread, and it brings me back to my earlier point. I do think Melisandre had a vision concerning Stannis. I do think Stannis may very well "fit" the prophecy of Azor Ahai reborn (perhaps along with other characters). Yet Melisandre's interpretation of what it means to be Azor Ahai reborn may turn out to be very different from the reality of the original prophecy/vision. So Mel in turn actively goes about to make Stannis and his cause fit what her vision of Azor Ahai reborn to be. Which along with the flaming sword includes a battle against the forces of the cold up north.

Now as it turns out, we do have a gathering of forces up north that in turn do seem to fit the story of the Long Night and the Battle of the Dawn. If anything, this feeds into Melisandre's idea that her interpretations of the visions are correct.

Now what if the gathering up North is not as it appears either. What if as Black Crow has detailed the White Walkers are Craster's sons. What if the White Walkers are specifically being created by man and modelled after the White Walkers of legend for some other nerfarious purpose.

So we have two groups of forces being steered/created by very human characters. Melisandre is trying to recreate the fire side of the battle for the dawn to bring about her intepretations of the visions, while another group is creating an army of White Walkers based on legends for their own purposes.

[King of Winters]

Well I think the problem comes from the assumption that Azor Ahai is a messiah or an heir to the Iron Throne. I think first and foremost it is a textual clue. I think by the end of the books we'll look back and say this character (or these characters) all in various ways fulfilled these visions/prophecies that we heard about. Now whether they ultimately helped bring about the salvation of Westeros or its destruction is another issue.

That could also be a twist as well. People flocking to who they believe is AAR/TPTWP and their saviour, say Dany. But instead realise, later on, that she's not what they've been promised by prophecy and isn't the saviour they've been waiting for.

[Black Crow]

Black Crow, " If the Starks are bound to the powers of ice as we've discussed before, then the abduction of a daughter of Winterfell by an agent of fire is of grave concern to the old powers and reason enough for them to waken again."

So your saying that whatever unknown force/entity driving the Others was all-knowing/powerful enough to know of the disappearance of Lyanna and then be offended to the point of using said powers to reawaken ancient blood thirsty ice demons, without being able to come to the knowledge that it wasn't the abduction-rape that Robert propagated it to be?

If your going to go the " X discourtesy done to the Starks before the story started upset and woke the Others," id sooner go with The Lord of and his heir to Winterfell being burned and strangled to death publically by somebody you could actually call an "agent of fire", Aerys.

And what exactly is this proposing? What I get from that is the Others are rising to avenge the mistreated Starks of Winterfell, so whats their goal? Killing all of the dead Targaryens? Or just Dany?, and tough luck to any and all people in the half a world between the Others and the single living Targ?

Not to avenge but rather to respond to the threat

[Frey family reunion]

That could also be a twist as well. People flocking to who they believe is AAR/TPTWP and their saviour, say Dany. But instead realise, later on, that she's not what they've been promised by prophecy and isn't the saviour they've been waiting for.

Here is where I disagree a bit with BC. I think like every other character in the stories, Dany is being manipulated. I think Benerro does not in reality believe Dany to be Azor Ahai come again, but is using her to help drum up a slave revolt in Volantis. I think Illyrio and the Red Temple are luring both Dany, the Golden Company, and a Dothraki horde into place to overthrow the Volantis govenrment. I think this is the debt of affection that Illyrio owes the Red Priests for the part they may be playing in Illyrio's own plans for "Aegon"'s conquering of Westeros.

[Hrafntýr]

@oursisthefury69: Again, the reality is that we know next to nothing about the WWs. But something has brought about their appearance. It could be response to a threat. It could be taking advantage of an opportunity. It could just be that they are a species with a very long dormant or hibernation period! We don't know; one of the things that initially drew me to Heresy was the clear recognition of this fact and a willingness to entertain hypothetical scenarios regarding their source, motivation, etc. But, in keeping with King of the Starks' point, if the PP has something to do with the battle for the dawn (which Aemon suggests) which in turn links the PP to the WWs, it would be an interesting twist if Rhaegar did to bring about the birth of the PP is actually responsible for the emergence of the WWs.

[King of Winters]

Here is where I disagree a bit with BC. I think like every other character in the stories, Dany is being manipulated. I think Benerro does not in reality believe Dany to be Azor Ahai come again, but is using her to help drum up a slave revolt in Volantis. I think Illyrio and the Red Temple are luring both Dany, the Golden Company, and a Dothraki horde into place to overthrow the Volantis govenrment. I think this is the debt of affection that Illyrio owes the Red Priests for the part they may be playing in Illyrio's own plans for "Aegon"'s conquering of Westeros.

I was just using Dany as an example, but good theory.

[Frey family reunion]

I was just using Dany as an example, but good theory.

You raise a good point though. All of these various machinations are only possible because the soldiers, the commoners, the salt of the earth (you know the morons) actively believe the visions/prophecies/religions, and are more than happy to accomodate both the religious zealots with their self fulfilling prophecies, or the more cynical manipulators using their beliefs to steer them in a particular direction.