Heresy 131 Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised

[Recovering forum addict]

There are definitely a lot of different individuals who seem to fulfill parts of the prophecy. What if this isn't just a literary device to keep us guessing, but actually the result of some in-story process?

What if the prophecy isn't so much a prophecy as a checklist? At some point in the distant past, some influential entity or group started spreading the myth of Azor Ahai so that if they, at some point in the future, needed to create a hero they could just give him or her the attributes of the myth and be reasonably sure that their hero would be taken seriously. And now, for some reason (the Others? Something completely different?), they have decided that they need that hero yesterday so they have started to track down suitable candidates, nudging them to take on the attributes of the myth, and hope that at least one of them will 'take'. And that's the reason that there seem to be so many potential princes(ses) that were promised.

It sounds a bit too neat and managed for ASOIAF, I admit, but it's something.

[redriver]

Two quotes strike me as applicable here.No text at hand ,so I'm paraphrasing.

The first was a quote by some Maester or Septon who said something to the effect of time is circular in nature and perforce what happened before will happen again.

The second is Tyrion's thought that the characters are dancing to strings pulled many eons ago.

What I'm trying to say is that the comet(s) strike has informed all traditions and prophecies.The patterns are too transparent to ignore.

Great write up,Butcher Crow.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I think this really gets to the core of how prophecy 'works' within the ASOIAF world. Mel ending up with Stannis is a self-fulfilled prophecy -- she sees Stannis looming large in her fires because he's a significant part of her own future, misreads the implications, and then proceeds to fulfill what she's seen in her fires. It's just like Cersei, who is only fulfilling Maggy the Frog's prophecy as a result of having knowledge of the prophecy in the first place.

I think we have other indicators of how subjective and unreliable prophecy is, particularly when it comes to what Mel is seeing vs. what Benero and Moqorro are seeing; Mel is at the Wall, and nearly all of the visions she shares with the reader in ADWD are related to the Wall, the NW, or the North in general. Benero is in Essos, which is being thrown into turmoil by Dany's slave revolt/conquest, so Dany figures heavily in his visions. Moqorro's life is in the Iron Fleet's hands, so Euron's shadow figures into his dreams more than any other.

I think you hit the nail on the head. To each their own (vision)

[TheButcherCrow]

I wonder whether there is an older, more orthodox version of Rh'llorism out in Asshai ? A denomination that perhaps believes in Rh'llor and the "Warrior of Light" but doesn't believe that AA was that hero and subsequently does not believe that he will be reborn ? I'm thinking (obv) about the whole Christ/Messiah debacle and whether GRRM may have given us an "in-world" analogue.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

I hAve to bring up the origins of the Valyrian people here. They were shepherds. One day the discovered dragons in the fires.

Where did these sheep herders come across these prophecies? I imagine they did not know PTWP or any AA prophecies or tales until the Valyria freehold came about. Once they move in on other's lands, tongues and writings, they start gathering folklore and prophecies.

I am saying that the AA (possibly) and PTWP were added into the Valyrian folklore after commingling with other cultures.

Wich leads me to this train of thought. The origins of these storis, details of prophecy are most likely from Westeros. During the Long Night, per Old Nan, some folks fled east to escape this tragedy. Carrying tales of what's going on back home . I believe some folks from the east came west to fight along side the Westerosi people as mercenaries and volunteers. Afterward the survivors of the war returned home with war stories and...

Not saying all the prophecies are fabrications, but I think some of the details have their origins from the west.

The west is the best. Get here and we'll do the rest.

[redriver]

I hAve to bring up the origins of the Valyrian people here. They were shepherds. One day the discovered dragons in the fires.

Where did these sheep herders come across these prophecies? I imagine they did not know PTWP or any AA prophecies or tales until the Valyria freehold came about. Once they move in on other's lands, tongues and writings, they start gathering folklore and prophecies.

I am saying that the AA (possibly) and PTWP were added into the Valyrian folklore after commingling with other cultures.

Wich leads me to this train of thought. The origins of these storis, details of prophecy are most likely from Westeros. During the Long Night, per Old Nan, some folks fled east to escape this tragedy. Carrying tales of what's going on back home . I believe some folks from the east came west to fight along side the Westerosi people as mercenaries and volunteers. Afterward the survivors of the war returned home with war stories and...

Not saying all the prophecies are fabrications, but I think some of the details have their origins from the west.

The west is the best. Get here and we'll do the rest.

We are not given a Wesrterosi history of dragons,not as far as their origin is concerned,at least.The only real story we have is the Qartheen trader's tale of a second moon wandering too close to the sun.

This moon cracked,as did Nissa Nisa's.It poured forth a thousand thousand dragons.And Septon Barth seems to think they have an Unnatural History.-Dragons.Wyrms and Wyverns.Why could that be?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

We are not given a Wesrterosi history of dragons,not as far as their origin is concerned,at least.The only real story we have is the Qartheen trader's tale of a second moon wandering too close to the sun.

This moon cracked,as did Nissa Nisa's.It poured forth a thousand thousand dragons.And Septon Barth seems to think they have an Unnatural History.-Dragons.Wyrms and Wyverns.Why could that be?

I do not think the dragon tales came from Westeros. That is an Essos thing for sure. (?) As far as the Valyrian dragons go I think they were found wyrms and transformed to dragons. The prophecies and such probably are intermixed oral stories, myths, foresight dreams, pro poo cies etc from around the world. I am not saying I have the answers. Just some ideas

[The Imperator]

Maybe the Azor Ahai and Prince That Was Promised prophecies are bullshit? What if the people that believe in those prophecies are only fooling themselves?

[Vegeta_Greyjoy]

Maybe the Azor Ahai and Prince That Was Promised prophecies are bullshit? What if the people that believe in those prophecies are only fooling themselves?

Ah, but Dany has already fulfilled 5 of the conditions so she is still Azor Ahai even if there is no Azor Ahai.

Edit: or maybe even 7 conditions

[The Imperator]

Ah, but Dany has already fulfilled 5 of the conditions so she is still Azor Ahai even if there is no Azor Ahai.

Edit: or maybe even 7 conditions

Or those could just be bullshit interpretations of the Prophecy, mostly made by TargTargs

[Arya Havinfun]

The first trouble with all this preoccupation with AA/TPWP stuff is that the myth itself is virtually devoid of content, at least as far as the reader is concerned. So AA was a smith who painstakingly and indefatigably forged a magic sword by killing a lion and his dearly beloved wife in the process. At some unknown time he used that amazingly costly magic sword to slay some unknown monster for some unknown reason at some unknown place, with unknown results. Salt, smoke, blah blah. The hints are this was maybe 5,000 years ago in or near Asshai. Maybe. TPTWP has even fewer details attached to him/her, and seems to be a Targaryen family obsession that Mel conflates with AA for convenience.

Benerro in Volantis uses the idea of Daenerys being AA to stir up political ferment among the slaves against the rulers, and she is definitely susceptible to seeing herself in that mythic role, so the ramifications of that attribution are fairly mundane and seemingly nonmagical, even if she fits the details.

But who in Westeros is even aware of the AA myth? Who besides Stannis even imagines him/herself in that role? Mel and some of his few followers, the Queen’s men, may buy it and sell it, but nobody else does, including Stannis. He’s is only dressing himself in AA’s imagery for political marketing purposes to acquire the Iron Throne, not because he actually believes in any of it. The term “false coin” seems to apply here. As a marketing tool, identifying Stannis with AA/TPTWP kinda falls flat.

To readers, he seems to be more similar to NK, which may or may not be the same myth from the Ice side, but the details don’t really match.

The second trouble with AA/TPTWP is that so few characters in Westeros are even aware or concerned with these myths, never mind have beliefs or investments in them. Most folks have never heard of AA/TPTWP.

Perhaps if BloodRaven started talking to Bran about AA/TPTWP, the myths’ importance might take on some more gravitas, but up to this point, there’s been only silence, so meh. In fact, it’s getting a little annoying that BR hasn’t mentioned anything about NK or the WW, either.

And yet we have smaller characters who are unknowingly expressing facets of the myth in their lives, all unknowing. E.g., Brienne fits some of the scenario, especially with Oathkeeper, a blade that displays its own sort of odd magic all by itself, even just lying there. When last heard from, Brienne agreed to kill a very special lion with it, one she actually cares about despite her better judgment. But I hardly think she’s ever given AA/TPTWP a moment’s thought, and never with regard to herself.

[Hrafntýr]

Maybe the Azor Ahai and Prince That Was Promised prophecies are bullshit? What if the people that believe in those prophecies are only fooling themselves?

Personally, I think that some of the interpretations could be bullshit interpretations, but it's unlikely that the prophecies themselves are likely to be bullshit. The books would be the opposite of satisfying if GRRM gets his readers invested in the project of identifying for themselves, outside the perspectives of the characters, the referents of these prophecies, only to finish the books by saying: "Chumps! Fooled you! The whole thing was a bunch of TargTarg bs!" We wouldn't be set up to think that Mel is fooling herself if there weren't going to be a better interpretation than she has yet concocted. I think it's possible that we readers might wind up the books thinking that another character was the "true" PP than the one that in-world characters identify, but I don't think we'll wind up thinking we were dumb to try to figure out the best "candidates" for these roles.

I could be wrong, of course, but that's my sense of what's going on with the whole pov thing: it's about setting up dramatic irony: we're always going to know things that the characters won't.

[Hrafntýr]

@Arya Havinfun: I agree about how few actors in-world know or care about these prophecies, and your last example, of Brienne is a good one, and one that in some measure answers the question: "who even knows about these myths/prophecies?" We, the readers, do, and have for some time now. Yes, for the prophecies to serve a more dramatic role in terms of plot, it may be that more people need to know, though right now Mel is positioned in a pretty important place, despite not having many followers. And over in Essos, in Volantis especially, the AAR prophecy might be about to explode in a big way. But I was just writing above that the prophecies serve an important role in our experience as readers, causing us to interpret things differently and to wonder, e.g. if there's going to be a "real" Lightbringer, or who's going to be so-and-so's Nissa Nissa, or if Jon's is the song of ice and fire, etc. Not that those are central to our experience, but they do imbue certain characters and events with a perception that maybe something "bigger" is going on. Again, the Brienne example is a great one! It's already a great buildup based solely on the history that the characters involved have with one another, but throwing in magic swords and a lion well, that slightly alters our experience.

[horizon]

[small interruption]

In what heresy can I find discussion about:

- Mance and his six beautiful spearwives who went to Winterfel

- That the six women with Bael aren't all beautful (but that is a minor bit)

- Why these women call Eddard Stark Lord and why they berate Theon for speaking the words Winter is Coming.

- Winterfel and ghosts.

[/small interruption]

Azor Ahai is an Essos based myth

The Last Hero a Westeros based myth

The Prince that was promised a Targaryen myth.

It'll be Essos vs Westeros.

Fire vs Ice

and a promised Targaryen to bring back balance (to the force.... ahem).

[redriver]

Not a minor point at all.Mance leaves with six "young ones,and pretty",He arrives with his old mother.I've so enjoyed how posters explain this away.

So creative,the art of denial.

ETA "All Wildlings are a bit rough" appears to be the default argument.Val,Dalla and Ygritte might disagree.

[Black Crow]

The first trouble with all this preoccupation with AA/TPWP stuff is that the myth itself is virtually devoid of content, at least as far as the reader is concerned. So AA was a smith who painstakingly and indefatigably forged a magic sword by killing a lion and his dearly beloved wife in the process. At some unknown time he used that amazingly costly magic sword to slay some unknown monster for some unknown reason at some unknown place, with unknown results. Salt, smoke, blah blah. The hints are this was maybe 5,000 years ago in or near Asshai. Maybe. TPTWP has even fewer details attached to him/her, and seems to be a Targaryen family obsession that Mel conflates with AA for convenience.

Benerro in Volantis uses the idea of Daenerys being AA to stir up political ferment among the slaves against the rulers, and she is definitely susceptible to seeing herself in that mythic role, so the ramifications of that attribution are fairly mundane and seemingly nonmagical, even if she fits the details.

But who in Westeros is even aware of the AA myth? Who besides Stannis even imagines him/herself in that role? Mel and some of his few followers, the Queen’s men, may buy it and sell it, but nobody else does, including Stannis. He’s is only dressing himself in AA’s imagery for political marketing purposes to acquire the Iron Throne, not because he actually believes in any of it. The term “false coin” seems to apply here. As a marketing tool, identifying Stannis with AA/TPTWP kinda falls flat.

To readers, he seems to be more similar to NK, which may or may not be the same myth from the Ice side, but the details don’t really match.

The second trouble with AA/TPTWP is that so few characters in Westeros are even aware or concerned with these myths, never mind have beliefs or investments in them. Most folks have never heard of AA/TPTWP.

Perhaps if BloodRaven started talking to Bran about AA/TPTWP, the myths’ importance might take on some more gravitas, but up to this point, there’s been only silence, so meh. In fact, it’s getting a little annoying that BR hasn’t mentioned anything about NK or the WW, either.

And yet we have smaller characters who are unknowingly expressing facets of the myth in their lives, all unknowing. E.g., Brienne fits some of the scenario, especially with Oathkeeper, a blade that displays its own sort of odd magic all by itself, even just lying there. When last heard from, Brienne agreed to kill a very special lion with it, one she actually cares about despite her better judgment. But I hardly think she’s ever given AA/TPTWP a moment’s thought, and never with regard to herself.

:agree:

And would say that the absence of that information underlines the fact that the Azor Ahai/Prince prophecies have nothing to do with Westeros and were not carried east by refugees from Westeros. Part of the problem which GRRM is laying down here is that the Essosi, whether from Valyria or further east are attempting to impose their visions and ideologies on an alien Westeros. And similarly too many readers are buying it and assuming that all of this is a struggle between Mel's R'Hllor and the Great Other.

[redriver]

:agree:

And would say that the absence of that information underlines the fact that the Azor Ahai/Prince prophecies have nothing to do with Westeros and were not carried east by refugees from Westeros. Part of the problem which GRRM is laying down here is that the Essosi, whether from Valyria or further east are attempting to impose their visions and ideologies on an alien Westeros. And similarly too many readers are buying it and assuming that all of this is a struggle between Mel's R'Hllor and the Great Other.

The essential question is why the Asshai'i or the Valyrians would bother themselves with a Werteros problem in the first place.

[Black Crow]

Wich leads me to this train of thought. The origins of these storis, details of prophecy are most likely from Westeros. During the Long Night, per Old Nan, some folks fled east to escape this tragedy. Carrying tales of what's going on back home . I believe some folks from the east came west to fight along side the Westerosi people as mercenaries and volunteers. Afterward the survivors of the war returned home with war stories and...

Old Nan says absolutely nothing about folks fleeing east during the Long Night. I've long argued that the "time of great darkness" referenced in the Azor Ahai business has nothing to do with the Long Night but is a metaphorical darkness; a time of great evil,- hence the emphasis lately on the Heart of Darkness and with reference to my previous post the problem at the present time may be that which is at the root of Conrad's book; the imposition[perhaps with the very best of intentions] of alien values and solutions

[Mithras]

I agree that AA®/TPTWP legends seem highly detached from Westeros and they give no specific details about the Others / Long Night. The only connection is that AA supposedly fought a darkness which is described vaguely. Mel claims that she saw in a vision that Stannis leads the men against the dark. Before coming to the Wall, she had no foresight of the wights and Others or any other minions of the would-be Great Other as the supposed monsters that Stannis should slay. And no one in Westeros seems to be aware of these legends except some maesters.

However, there is this Last Hero who is known in Westeros (at least in the North) very well and he is remembered specifically to be fighting the Others in the Long Night.

The Andals who wrote the history of the First Men called his weapon a dragon-steel blade. I don’t think there was a word for steel in the Old Tongue because the Andals brought the steel technology to Westeros. However, I should note that meteoric iron can be worked to make steel weapons, as in the case of Dawn.

In any case, where did that dragon come from in the term dragon-steel? Why did the Andals feel the necessity to coin this term (dragon-steel) in describing the blade of the Last Hero?

[King of Winters]

Lets see what happend,the obssession led to a breeding program within the Targs to create some fabled prince.If its true then Jon is a product of that program that happened because the GHH planted a seed.So who does this baby "really" belong to.Who orchastrated it?

Interesting thought. The conventional view [at least in another place] is that Jon is a dragon with a bit of Ice in the mix which will give him some kind of edge in defeating the Others, but instead he may be Ice with a bit of dragon.

Or to paraphrase Alan Breck Stewart, he isn't Azor Ahai after all but belongs to "the wrong lot"...

Ah, ok. Got ya. It's similar to a plan that LF or Varys and Illyrio would do, wait years for the perfect moment after years of planning. And instead of ending up with Aegon at the head of an army, landing in Westeros, or gaining Harrenhal, the Eyrie and Sansa, the GOHH gives them Jon.