Do you like the idea of Sansa and Sandor (SanSan)?

[OldGimletEye]

Wow, how logical! I can only imagine the court cases being conducted by this principle:

"The defendant stands accused of two counts of murder in the first degree, conspiracy to commit murder, rackeetering..."

"Your Honor, I would like to ask for the charges to be expanded to include five cases of rape (cases X, Y and Z that the police couldn't solve), the child abuse that we couldn't convict Reverend Connolly for, and the rape-murder-cannibalism cases that were branded as the work of a serial killer popularly called the Monster from New Jersey..."

"Wait a moment. This man is an enforcer for the mob. Now he's also a child abuser and serial killer? You are trying to pin on him all crimes the police wasn't able to solve or your office has not been able to convict for?"

"Your Honor, our charges are based on rock solid evidence: namely, this is a Bad Man. If he is able to commit terrible crimes, such as murdering people, even children, at the order of his employees, and we know he is, he is certainly able to commit any kind of crime, no matter how different in nature or motivation!"

"Ah. I see. You are right. I will allow it."

In the United States, "prior bad acts" are generally inadmissable as evidence for a crime that the defendant is accused of.

[LordStoneheart]

Despite saving her from rape, providing an escape for her, being a source of comfort? Holding a knife to her throat throws all of that away? The Hound is the worst thing for Sansa besides Joffrey? You're including Littlefinger in that?

The hound is awkward around her and has conflicted feelings regarding her and even more than that is a conflicted person. He was drunk, he's not princecharming. Holding a knife to her is similar to a shy guy looking at the ground when he's asking a girl out. He was hiding his confliction by being mean to her (the knife) as he tried to convince her to let him take her home

Yes, yes, and yes. Have you ever had a knife held to your throat, or hands? It's probably not a fun experience, no matter how infatuated both parties are.

That's fine! I'm not saying that you thinking they aren't good for one another is wrong, just as a Sandor Stan, I don't see him as a rapist. That was my main issue, and obviously we've discussed that at length lol. Thanks for giving your opinion on the subject, anyways! Also, let's not forget Littlefinger. I would definitely say that he is far worse for Sansa than Sandor :)

Sorry, I forgot about LF. Mostly because I think he's rather forgettable as a character. ;) Yes, he's terrible for her, more so than Sandor. I'd rather she just end up with no one. They don't deserve her. :)

[Dya of Oldstones]

I am confused about this. This simply doesn't reject the notion of love. Your idea that he has some sort of platonic feelings for her are not substantiated with the text which is rather open and clear about that.

I think you are now slowly crossing the line of good manners... As I have said, nothing in SanSan is brought from outside. Martin wrote it that way, Is it creepy, uncomfortable and unconventional? Yes. Does it make it any less real? Absolutely not.

I am one of greatest Sansa fans out there, and SanSan, although a big part of her storyline, never interested me extensively. I acknowledged that something is going on between those two, that their story hasn't ended and that motif of "beauty and the beast" is rather strong here. Readers are not cheering, but they actually do believe that Martin's writing in that segment is rather nice and quite commendable. So, as I have said some 10 times around here, unlike in many other shippings, this one came from the text.

Always loved your input, even from when I was still just lurking. Totally agree on the SanSan part, since I find it a compelling part of her character arc, but it's not enough by itself. I'm looking forward to seeing how more of the dots connect in her growth when TWOW comes out.

[Robb_Warged]

Yes, yes, and yes. Have you ever had a knife held to your throat, or hands? It's probably not a fun experience, no matter how infatuated both parties are.

Sorry, I forgot about LF. Mostly because I think he's rather forgettable as a character. ;) Yes, he's terrible for her, more so than Sandor. I'd rather she just end up with no one. They don't deserve her. :)

I can't believe the horrible ideas and arguments advocates against sansan cling to. I can get not liking sansan but accepting it's been built in the narrative

But saying that having held a knife to her, when its clear Sansa/The Hound sort of parralels Beauty and The Beast tropes, rids all the good The Hound did (he saved her from getting brutally raped for crying out loud and was telling her he wanted to take her home!), then I can't take those people seriously.

"Yeah you might have protected her, but it's meaningless! You put a knife to her throat and I don't care if Sansa herself has said she knows you'd never hurt her and kept your bloody garment after the incident!"

I just can't take that argument seriously

[XxLittleBirdxX]

LF is the love of her life, she doesnt need Sandor. LF wont loose again against a brute with no mind.

Oh wow. Don't get me started on a rant about Littlefinger please. Too late. I'm going to rant.

1. He set everything into motion that led to most of her family now being dead.

2. He has said that he loves Catelyn and now wants to live out some sick fantasy with her daughter.

3. Sansa will never love him anymore than Catelyn did.

4. He is disgusting. He makes her call him 'father' all the while groping her and forcing her to kiss him.

5. He betrayed Ned, and played a part in his death.

6. Even if 'Petyr' does care about Sansa, 'Littlefinger' will always want power more than anything. Including her.

7. He plans to prove that by saying he intends to marry her off, and if not, he probably intends to marry her himself. Not because he loves her but for power.

8. He manipulates her and lies to her just like everyone else.

Please explain to me how in ANY way he is the love of her life? Personally, I think Sansa will either kill him or take him out of the game. She's going to play the player and Sophie Turner basically confirmed that in a recent interview.

[Mladen]

Yes, yes, and yes. Have you ever had a knife held to your throat, or hands? It's probably not a fun experience, no matter how infatuated both parties are.

And everyone who ever held a knife or shut someone's mouth with the hand wanted to rape someone. In that chapter, there is not one, not even one word that would suggest the rape intent. The entire thing was based on his attempt to infuriate Arya. Basically, you forgot the context of the quote you provided.

[Robb_Warged]

And everyone who ever held a knife or shut someone's mouth with the hand wanted to rape someone. In that chapter, there is not one, not even one word that would suggest the rape intent. The entire thing was based on his attempt to infuriate Arya. Basically, you forgot the context of the quote you provided.

And even immediately after the scene, Sansa affectionately keeps on to his bloody garment.

I get not liking sansan. I really do. But the useless arguments the antagonists of sansan raise to fight against the relationship the narrative has built are horrible

[LordStoneheart]

And everyone who ever held a knife or shut someone's mouth with the hand wanted to rape someone. In that chapter, there is not one, not even one word that would suggest the rape intent. The entire thing was based on his attempt to infuriate Arya. Basically, you forgot the context of the quote you provided.

But as I said, just because he was trying to goad Arya doesn't mean what he said is less true.

I just can't see the situation as anything but him trying to rape her, completely with dagger/phallus symbolism. Blades are always phalluses, of course. ;) I can't say there's anything concrete but interpretation and that's how I interpret it. And even if I'm wrong, I still feel the same amount of disgust of him trying to kill her in the first place.

[Dya of Oldstones]

Oh wow. Don't get me started on a rant about Littlefinger please. Too late. I'm going to rant.

1. He set everything into motion that led to most of her family now being dead.

2. He has said that he loves Catelyn and now wants to live out some sick fantasy with her daughter.

3. Sansa will never love him anymore than Catelyn did.

4. He is disgusting. He makes her call him 'father' all the while groping her and forcing her to kiss him.

5. He betrayed Ned, and played a part in his death.

6. Even if 'Petyr' does care about Sansa, 'Littlefinger' will always want power more than anything. Including her.

7. He plans to prove that by saying he intends to marry her off, and if not, he probably intends to marry her himself. Not because he loves her but for power.

8. He manipulates her and lies to her just like everyone else.

Please explain to me how in ANY way he is the love of her life? Personally, I think Sansa will either kill him or take him out of the game. She's going to play the player and Sophie Turner basically confirmed that in a recent interview.

Couldn't agree more, but you left a few things out.

9. "Saved" her by framing for murder kingslaying, forcing her into a position she has to become dependent on him.

10. Will most likely kill her when he finds no use for her...if he's capable of killing a king (even a sadistic psycho like Joffrey), then all bets are off.

11. Uses even people's best impulses and qualities against them to manipulate.

I'm sure I left quite a few out myself.

[XxLittleBirdxX]

Couldn't agree more, but you left a few things out.

9. "Saved" her by framing for murder, forcing her into a position she has to become dependent on him.

10. Will most likely kill her when he finds no use for her...if he's capable of killing a king (even a sadistic psycho like Joffrey), then all bets are off.

11. Uses even people's best impulses and qualities against them to manipulate.

I'm sure I left quite a few out myself.

Oh yeah, I'm sure there are quite a few more!

[LordStoneheart]

But saying that having held a knife to her, when its clear Sansa/The Hound sort of parralels Beauty and The Beast tropes, rids all the good The Hound did (he saved her from getting brutally raped for crying out loud and was telling her he wanted to take her home!), then I can't take those people seriously.

I often put bad intentions in front of good ones to judge a person. Mostly in real life, though. To me, that's how you really know what a person is.

[Mladen]

But as I said, just because he was trying to goad Arya doesn't mean what he said is less true.

I just can't see the situation as anything but him trying to rape her, completely with dagger/phallus symbolism. Blades are always phalluses, of course. ;) I can't say there's anything concrete but interpretation and that's how I interpret it. And even if I'm wrong, I still feel the same amount of disgust of him trying to kill her in the first place.

Unless his report is contradicted by the sequence of events that has happened. And as we have clearly established, in Sansa's POV of that night, there is not one bit of rape. Again, you count too much on one line that not only is said for another purposes, but actually contradicts the text we have of the events he talked about. Please reread that chapter and you will see that there was no rape threat, not one action that would make us believe it would have gone that way. He didn't rip her clothes, forced himself on her, started kissing her... Nothing of those.

Oh, God, dagger/phallus symbolism? I will regret for asking this, but WTH is this about? And how that phallus worked horizontally on her neck.

You even say you don't have anything concrete... Well, the opposing side kinda has. And this is not just some "difference of opinion" matter.

[Mladen]

I often put bad intentions in front of good ones to judge a person. Mostly in real life, though. To me, that's how you really know what a person is.

And you came to conclusion that he wants to rape her when he asked her to save her? I am sorry, but this is kinda funny.

[LordStoneheart]

And you came to conclusion that he wants to rape her when he asked her to save her? I am sorry, but this is kinda funny.

When she rejected him. Nothing wrong with that, any sane person would, but some are quite petty with rejection...

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It is one thing when GRRM writes about it. It is another thing when readers are shouting out loud "how sweet, how romantic, how great" that is and are actually CHEERING for a romance between Sansa and Sandor. If people desperately are in need for romance, there are enough RomComs out there (not directed at you).

Sandor is a monster. He admitted as much. The murder and butchering of 12 year old Mycah was not the only bad thing he did, maybe not even the worst.

I really don't see the problem in people cheering, thats their own opinion. And I don't see why you are trying to shun romance out of ASOIAF, GRRM is writing a humane and real story and romance is part of life.

GRRM didn't write the story for all male and female relationships to be political marriages.

[Annara Snow]

But as I said, just because he was trying to goad Arya doesn't mean what he said is less true.

I just can't see the situation as anything but him trying to rape her, completely with dagger/phallus symbolism. Blades are always phalluses, of course. ;)

Well, that certainly puts a different spin on Arya's attachment to Needle. ;)

Also, Jamie basically gave Brienne a phallus called Oathkeeper when he told her to fight for his honor, after his father had melted down Ned Stark's big to make two smaller phalluses for his son and grandson. :rofl:

[LordStoneheart]

Well, that certainly puts a different spin on Arya's attachment to Needle. ;)

Also, Jamie basically gave Brienne a phallus called Oathkeeper when he told her to fight for his honor, after his father had melted down Ned Stark's big to make two smaller phalluses for his son and grandson. :rofl:

Exactly. This series gets really funny if you replace every sword with that other kind of sword. :D

[Karmarni]

Well, I see this thread has dissolved into the usual mess.

I like Sandor and Sansa’s interactions. I think he is the Gravedigger. I do not think he will stay on the Quiet Isle. I do not think he took vows, it’s stated he’s a novice. I think Sandor will show up in Sansa’s story in the future; too much written about them in the first two novels and his thoughts of her in the third novel and her’s in the third and fourth. It is complex, causes arguments, and by that reasoning alone, I think there is something going on. If readers still debate multiple angles of a 10 - 16 year old story, that is quite a story, I say.

I see the cloak foreshadowing. The unkiss – well, if Sansa thinks that kiss equals what happens in a marriage bed, her marriage bed, then I’d say she has gone quite a way in imagining that kiss with the Hound. It must be damn good at this point. Seeing what might become of that is interesting to me.

I do not think he went ‘berserk.’ I think he wanted what she had promised him, an actual song – the one he spit on earlier. She couldn’t look at him, he thought (he was wrong, she had been analyzing his face for awhile), and that made him angry. He was there to rescue her. So he “took the song” with his dagger, just like in The Sworn Sword:

But when they finally broke apart, he drew his dagger. “I know what I want to remember you by, m’lady.”

But The Hound gets the Mother’s Hymn. The one about “let them know a better day . . . teach us all a kinder way.” He cries because it’s all fallen apart, she is not going with him, and he did not achieve his aim, to rescue her, all because he has let his emotions hold sway. He might never see her again. Oh, but I think he will. She has gone and made it happen, by continuing to think about him.

I do not think the Hound nor Sandor is a monster. Joffrey was the monster; Sansa herself observed that. In a story where Arya Stark has become a cold-blooded assassin for hire, it’s hard for me to expect modern morality.

[XxLittleBirdxX]

Well, I see this thread has dissolved into the usual mess.

I like Sandor and Sansa’s interactions. I think he is the Gravedigger. I do not think he will stay on the Quiet Isle. I do not think he took vows, it’s stated he’s a novice. I think Sandor will show up in Sansa’s story in the future; too much written about them in the first two novels and his thoughts of her in the third novel and her’s in the third and fourth. It is complex, causes arguments, and by that reasoning alone, I think there is something going on. If readers still debate multiple angles of 10 and 16 year old story, that is quite a story, I say.

I see the cloak foreshadowing. The unkiss – well, if Sansa thinks that kiss equals what happens in a marriage bed, her marriage bed, then I’d say she has gone quite a way in imagining that kiss with the Hound. It must be damn good at this point. Seeing what might become of that is interesting to me.

I do not think he went ‘berserk.’ I think he wanted what she had promised him, an actual song – the one he spit on earlier. She couldn’t look at him, he thought (he was wrong, she had been analyzing his face for awhile), and that made him angry. He was there to rescue her. So he “took the song” with his dagger, just like in The Sworn Sword:

But The Hound gets the Mother’s Hymn. The one about “let them know a better day . . . teach us all a kinder way.” He cries because it’s all fallen apart, she is not going with him, and he did not achieve his aim, to rescue her, all because he has let his emotions hold sway. He might never see her again. Oh, but I think he will. She has gone and made it happen, by continuing to think about him.

I do not think the Hound nor Sandor is a monster. Joffrey was the monster; Sansa herself observed that. In a story where Arya Stark has become a cold-blooded assassin for hire, it’s hard for me to expect modern morality.

Thank you for replying! I loved your post.

[Mladen]

When she rejected him. Nothing wrong with that, any sane person would, but some are quite petty with rejection...

I genuinely think you need a reread of that chapter. Not some nasty reproach but a friendly advice. It seems you mixed up the order of events...