Do you like the idea of Sansa and Sandor (SanSan)?

[Annara Snow]

I don't like it, for a few reasons.

1: Assuming Sandor survived and is in fact the grave digger, I want him to stay there, at peace with himself. For him and Sansa to have any sort of relationship again it would mean him leaving that isle and taking up he sword again, in some capacity and given his past, I prefer for him t live out his days in peace and not wielding anything more deadly then a plow or shovel.

2: I have never been a big fan of Sansa, I have always thought he was shallow, selfish, and dim, and I have not given her future happiness a great deal of thought. That being said, her torment at the hands of the Lannisters did kinda of clean the slate of her sins against her family, and she does seem to be growing into a more interesting and likable character at the hands of Littlefinger. It is Littlefinger's lessons that may make it so that Sansa would have little interest in Sandor now.

I am not sure where Sansa's story arc is going, but I hope it does not bring her back into contact with Sandor, I want him to be at peace.

1. There's nothing to suggest that Sandor is at peace. It seems like wishful thinking on many people's part. He never chose to be on Quiet Isle, he has nowhere else to go, he is a wanted man and a very recognizable one. And I very much doubt that he finds a life as a silent, celibate monk who can never leave one place to be his ideal how he wants to spend the rest of his days.

2. Littlefinger is teaching her how to be a better politician, liar and manipulator - which is nothing new for her, she had been surviving on her own in KL for almost two years and has learned to lie already, and she always knew how to differentiate different houses, talk to people, etc. This is just a higher level of it. But how the heck could LF's "lessons" make her have less interest in Sandor? He is not completely brainwashing her and changing who she is, including her emotions; I'm sure he would love to, because he is also trying to groom her into his lover, but it's obviously not working. She has in fact been fantasizing about Sandor the most since she has been around Littlefinger. It is something she holds on to that is one of her ways to resist his attempts to mold her into his creature. Maybe it's not surprising since you don't like Sansa, but I find it weird that you talk of her becoming "more interesting and likable" as if that's to Littefinger's credit; it almost sounds like you are saying that you would want her to be brainwashed by LF and become his daughter/lover/future wife who is OK with murdering people for power while she is being pimped out to various political marriages, and that this would make her "more interesting and likable" than a girl who actually has her own dreams, desires and wishes that are not controlled by her fake "father".

[FreeParking]

Well, IDK what sensitivity this needs, but I think people see this completely wrong... As I said in my first post, it doesn't matter what anyone wants, it is what is written in the books.

Well the title is "do you like the idea of it", not "is it supported by the text."

[XxLittleBirdxX]

Your biggest concern in the OP was the "age difference". With not a single line the unpleasant Mycah incident is mentioned. So it's not that farfetched to say that you "ignored" or "forgot" about it :). Anyway, I can correctly call Sandor a child butcher because that is what he is.

With regard to the rest of your post: this is not the place to discuss the "justification" or non-justification of the Hound's child murder. There are open threads for that. Furthermore I learned a long time ago that it's useless to discuss facts when cognitive dissonance comes into play. And unfortunately there is alot of that among SanSan-fans :). The attempt to deflect by throwing Jaime or Tyrion into the ring is proof enough (btw how would you know what I think about them?)

It's interesting that you're mentioning that this isn't the place to discuss Mycah, since you're the one that brought it up in the first place. Perhaps in the future you should refrain from doing that if you aren't interesting in discussing it. :)

Actually I only posted the age difference bit because that seems to be one of the biggest concerns among some people, so I wanted to state my stance on that. You're absolutely right, he did kill a child. I wasn't deflecting, I was pointing out that I didn't see your point in mentioning that? Unless of course you meant that you think Sansa shouldn't be with any of her potential romantic interests (meaning Sandor, Tyrion or Littlefinger), which is completely fine. I don't know what you think of them, nor did I imply that I did, you should re-read my post before replying. I was naming them as examples to make a point in response to what you said.

I'm perfectly capable of discussing facts. I wasn't stating that I disagreed with you for saying that you didn't like them together because he is a 'child butcher' (among other reasons I'm sure). You have every right to that opinion and the entire reason why I create this thread was because I was curious about the opinions of others.

The point in my reply was to state that while it's understandable that you wouldn't like him with her because he's a killer, was that in that world, there are a lot of killers. I'm not excusing it at all, I still hold that against him, because it was wrong, but I understood why he did it. Either way you're entitled to your opinion. That's fine. :)

[Mladen]

Well the title is "do you like the idea of it", not "is it supported by the text."

I was even speaking about the question itself. The story is there, like it or not. We can now discuss whether we like or dislike GRRM's choice to include it in ASOIAF, but this doesn't exist as some sort of fanfic shipping like Arya/Gendry, Jon/Dany, Dany/Stannis etc. We can also discuss whether we would like this particular story to end in this or that way, but generally we can't discuss about this as some sort of fan product when in fact it isn't.

[XxLittleBirdxX]

Sandor is dead as well. May his tortured soul rest in peace. I know it's hard to swallow that bitter pill for shippers ;).

That hasn't been confirmed. It's not just shippers that believe he is alive, I'm pretty sure more than half of the fans that have read the books believe that he is alive. We'll just have to wait and see.

[Robb_Warged]

Not sure if serious...if indeed than it is because of this why "SanSan" threads should be banned in the first place.

But I guess it's just taking the piss :).

Sansa will eventually grow up. Her and The Hound have chemistry. Not sure why it offends people when fans of Sansa hope she finds love and companionship eventually with someone who appreciates her and would protect her

Supporting sansan doens't necessarily mean you want them to have a romantic relationship this very instant

[XxLittleBirdxX]

I don't like it, for a few reasons.

1: Assuming Sandor survived and is in fact the grave digger, I want him to stay there, at peace with himself. For him and Sansa to have any sort of relationship again it would mean him leaving that isle and taking up he sword again, in some capacity and given his past, I prefer for him t live out his days in peace and not wielding anything more deadly then a plow or shovel.

2: I have never been a big fan of Sansa, I have always thought he was shallow, selfish, and dim, and I have not given her future happiness a great deal of thought. That being said, her torment at the hands of the Lannisters did kinda of clean the slate of her sins against her family, and she does seem to be growing into a more interesting and likable character at the hands of Littlefinger. It is Littlefinger's lessons that may make it so that Sansa would have little interest in Sandor now.

I am not sure where Sansa's story arc is going, but I hope it does not bring her back into contact with Sandor, I want him to be at peace.

If he is 'at rest' and has found peace in the Quiet Isle, then I would be completely fine with his storyline ending there. It's actually one of the best ways that a storyline can be ended. :)

[Annara Snow]

**This is my first post, so I apologize if I'm posting it in the wrong place**

Okay, so I'm curious about something. If it isn't painfully obvious from both my display name and my avatar - I'm a fan of SanSan (Sansa/Sandor). There are many reasons, but I suppose I've always had a soft spot for damaged characters..not to mention there's the fact that it's basically ASOIAF's version of Beauty and the Beast.

Before people start replying with the "She's a child!" thing, let me make something clear: I do not and would not support this type of relationship in real life or modern day. That's the beauty of Fantasy, people! And to be perfectly honest, I love the idea of just a platonic relationship between Sansa and Sandor, at least until she's older. I just love their chemistry and interactions.

That being said, there are a few things that annoy me. Some - not all, but some people who dislike them because of the age difference, are the same people that like the idea of Sansa/Tyrion or even worse Sansa/Petyr. Need I remind you that Tyrion, I believe, is only about 2 years younger than Sandor, while Littlefinger is 2 years older.

Without getting anymore off topic - what do you all think of their relationship (whether it be platonic or romantic) and do you expect that we will see more of them together in the future? I do, and here's why:

GRRM has had Sansa think about Sandor quite often. I mean she thought about him whenever she was kissed, she thought about him in her marriage bed, and then there's the whole 'false kiss memory' that she has. What is the purpose of her remembering a kiss that didn't happen? I wonder if that will ever add up to anything.

Part of me thinks that Sansa has twisted her view of Sandor slightly, seeing him, oddly enough as her 'Knight' even though she's aware that he is no true knight. Ever since her time in King's Landing, her views of knights have changed drastically from what she had initially thought of them, while Sandor, who claimed to hate them was more of a true knight than any of the others as far as she was concerned.

I know that in the show (and I consider the books and the show to be completely different) a lot of people are starting to like the idea of Sansa/Petyr...which I don't understand at all (I hate him), but to each their own. :) . So I'm wondering what book readers think? Or people who just watch the show. This is just a general question. :)

Yes, I do expect to see more of them, because it's actually a storyline that exists in canon. Both characters have feelings for each other, there are romantic overtones, an established connection and lots of foreshadowing and hints. It's not a matter of "shipping", it's there in the text, and I find it absurd and hilarious when some posters reply with: "I hate this shipping stuff, that's for the chicks (booo) so I'd rather ship (insert two random people who have never met)". :lol:

The main reason people "ship" SanSan is because Sansa herself does. It's the only "ship" of hers that's in any way based on anything Sansa actually feels and wants. (I haven't seen anyone ship her and Loras, so that's definitely true.) It can't therefore be compared to Sansa/Tyrion or (ugh) Sansa/Littlefinger, which are people rooting for things that were forced on Sansa/are being forced on Sansa and that she doesn't want at all.

As for people shipping Sansa and LF, well there are lots of people shipping Theon and Ramsay and writing fan fiction about them, and show Ramsay has lots of fangirls because the actor is kinda cute. So, yeah... If Joffrey had looked more like his description in the book, I bet there would have been lots of Joffrey/Sansa shippers among show viewers, no matter what.

[XxLittleBirdxX]

Sansa will eventually grow up. Her and The Hound have chemistry. Not sure why it offends people when fans of a character hope she finds love and companionship eventually with someone who appreciates her and would protect her

Supporting sansan doens't necessarily mean you want them to have a romantic relationship this very instant

I agree with this. Actually I wouldn't want a romantic relationship between her and Sandor anytime soon. If it did turn into something more, I would prefer that she were older. Whenever I say I 'ship' SanSan I mean that I love their general interaction. They didn't have a romance in King's Landing. They never kissed or did anything like that (despite her inaccurate memory), and I would have felt a bit uncomfortable if they had. There's nothing wrong with them having a platonic relationship. Their scenes are really interesting. He challenges her to see things differently and she struggles to get over her initial view of the world and what 'ugly' people truly are. Whether it's on the inside of the outside.

[Annara Snow]

I'm not a woman hence I won't pretend to know what significance have a woman's thought in respect to her feelings.

I can only say that if Sansa thoughts were in my head, that wouldn't by any means imply any kind of even remote infatuation for Sandor.

So no, I don't see this in the books, and for what is worth my opinion I don't ship them.

Sansa is my favourite character and I hope she will get someone with whom she doesn't have to completely loose her juvenile ingenuity.

I think you got that one backwards. Since you wouldn't have any romantic feelings for Sandor, you wouldn't have the kind of thoughts about him that Sansa has.

I mean, I would at least assume you wouldn't imagine that Sandor has kissed you and dwell on that fake memory for months and months, or think of him every time sex or kissing is mentioned, or dream of him naked getting into your bed... Unless you're saying you normally have those kind of thoughts about people you are not attracted to?

[XxLittleBirdxX]

I think you got that one backwards. Since you wouldn't have any romantic feelings for Sandor, you wouldn't have the kind of thoughts about him that Sansa has.

I mean, I would at least assume you wouldn't imagine that Sandor has kissed you and dwell on that fake memory for months and months, or think of him every time sex or kissing is mentioned, or dream of him naked getting into your bed... Unless you're saying you normally have those kind of thoughts about people you are not attracted to?

LOL well said. I don't think Sansa is in love with Sandor, and I do think she would still be nervous/afraid if she were to meet up with him, but it doesn't make sense for her to think about him that often for no reason or if she wanted nothing to do with him.

I mean, people could argue that she was comparing him to her 'bad' experiences, but even that could be countered by saying that she doesn't think of Sandor in a negative light because she has compared him to good things (she thought it was him whenever she was being saved while at the Eyrie), and she has wondered what had become of him and has even thought 'I wish The Hound were here' (back in King's Landing).

[Good Guy Garlan]

Well, to put it delicately, the idea of SanSan makes me want to throw up and its supporters kind of freak me out, since I think they're the same people who would find Fifty Shades of Grey romantic

Just, the notion of Sansa ending up with a guy who wanted to rape her once (but he changed his mind, so it's all good!), who drunkely demanded a song from her at knife point (but a song is like, so romantic, so it's all good!) and who rode down a boy once (but he was following orders, so it's all good! Orders, that, btw, he conveniently threw out the window when it was his neck on the line, facing fire on the Blackwater)

[King of Winters]

I could see their relationship like that of Leon and Matilda in 'Leon', where she loves Sandor, as the misremembered kiss shows us, and Sandor only wanting to protect her and keep her safe.

[Nictarion]

I could see their relationship like that of Leon and Matilda in 'Leon', where she loves Sandor, as the misremembered kiss shows us, and Sandor only wanting to protect her and keep her safe.

Sandor has romantic feelings towards Sansa though, Leon did not with Matilda.

[XxLittleBirdxX]

Well, to put it delicately, the idea of SanSan makes me want to throw up and its supporters kind of freak me out, since I think they're the same people who would find Fifty Shades of Grey romantic

Just, the notion of Sansa ending up with a guy who wanted to rape her once (but he changed his mind, so it's all good!), who drunkely demanded a song from her at knife point (but a song is like, so romantic, so it's all good!) and who rode down a boy once (but he was following orders, so it's all good! Orders, that, btw, he conveniently threw out the window when it was his neck on the line, facing fire on the Blackwater)

That's fine, you have a right to that opinion. Also, just to point something out, Sandor said that 'he should have raped her' and I believe that he was only saying that in an attempt to get Arya to kill him. The whole point of that conversation was for him to goad her into giving him the 'mercy of death'. If he had wanted to rape her, then he would have. It's as simple as that. There was literally nothing to stop him, and he was leaving anyways so there would have been no punishment. There's no excusing the knife and her throat part, and I've already stated how I feel about the Mycah incident. So I understand where you're coming from about the knife and Mycah, even if I don't agree. :) I do, however, think it's out of line to say that people 'freak you out' because they like the idea of something that you don't.

[XxLittleBirdxX]

I could see their relationship like that of Leon and Matilda in 'Leon', where she loves Sandor, as the misremembered kiss shows us, and Sandor only wanting to protect her and keep her safe.

I don't know who that is lol, but I'll take your word for it. :)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I could see their relationship like that of Leon and Matilda in 'Leon', where she loves Sandor, as the misremembered kiss shows us, and Sandor only wanting to protect her and keep her safe.

Sandor has romantic feelings towards Sansa though, Leon did not with Matilda.

Different times. For Leon is kind of a crime to have those feelings. For Sandor, not so much.

But, if a parallel exist for Leon and Matilda, isn't SanSan but Sandor and Arya, at least in the show.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't know who that is lol, but I'll take your word for it. :)

You haven't seen Leon? Is a very good movie, you should. Jean Reno, Gary Oldman and Natalie Portman.

[XxLittleBirdxX]

You haven't seen Leon? Is a very good movie, you should. Jean Reno, Gary Oldman and Natalie Portman.

I'll watch it. :)

[Nictarion]

Different times. For Leon is kind of a crime to have those feelings. For Sandor, not so much.

I don't think a hit man would worry about breaking the law. Leon just simply didn't see Matilda that way. It was more of a father/daughter relationship.