Malazan II

[UtherDoul]

RE Quick Ben from Samwell's spoiler bit, I think QB's story bugs me the most out of all the timeline issues.

The Malazan Empire hasn't been around all that long. The Emperor was just a normal mage with a buddy who was a pretty great assassin. They and their crew of friends from the bar take over an island and then the world (Shadowthrone and Cotillion as Malaz's version of Pinky and the Brain).

My point being that the empire has only been around for what, 20? 30? Years. And they conquered the region of the seven cities and that lead to the amalgamation of souls inside Ben at some point after that.

And then they disappear and in the worst kept secret since the NSA cell phone spying... Become (essentially) the god of Shadow.

But they only disappeared fairly recently. So just when exactly in here was QB supposed to infiltrate the Shadow Priesthood and have time to leave after reaching the top and become buddies with Whiskeyjack and Co?

The timeline there never has fit. The story is always good, but the details of it are very sketchy to me.

I'm pretty sure the Empire is closer to 100 years old rather than 20/30. In fact I believe in Night of Knives it's mentioned the keeper of Mock's Hold was already there when Mock was overthrown 100 years ago. The inner circle all kept their longevity due to magic, alchemies and the stay in the Deadhouse.

The various Crippled God (non) revelations where what irked me the most about Quick Ben. Suddenly Delat is a portentous name that makes Ruthan Gudd pause when in the Bonehunters it was his family name and so presumably his original name that had no connection with whatever other entities share his body

[polishgenius]

I'm pretty sure the Empire is closer to 100 years old rather than 20/30. In fact I believe in Night of Knives it's mentioned the keeper of Mock's Hold was already there when Mock was overthrown 100 years ago. The inner circle all kept their longevity due to magic, alchemise and the stay in the Deadhouse.

Looking back at the timeline, QB's timeline is even more considerably screwed up than Rhom is suggesting or he was a priest of Shadow after he joined up with the Bridgeburners. Because he joined the squad during the conquest of Seven Cities, ie during Kellanved's reign, right?

Although I recall more than a few implications during the series that the priesthood of Shadow was active before Kellanved ascended, so I'm not really sure. I don't have the books on hand to check.

Plus, ya know... GotMisms. What can you do?

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

RE Quick Ben from Samwell's spoiler bit, I think QB's story bugs me the most out of all the timeline issues.

The Malazan Empire hasn't been around all that long. The Emperor was just a normal mage with a buddy who was a pretty great assassin. They and their crew of friends from the bar take over an island and then the world (Shadowthrone and Cotillion as Malaz's version of Pinky and the Brain).

My point being that the empire has only been around for what, 20? 30? Years. And they conquered the region of the seven cities and that lead to the amalgamation of souls inside Ben at some point after that.

And then they disappear and in the worst kept secret since the NSA cell phone spying... Become (essentially) the god of Shadow.

But they only disappeared fairly recently. So just when exactly in here was QB supposed to infiltrate the Shadow Priesthood and have time to leave after reaching the top and become buddies with Whiskeyjack and Co?

The timeline there never has fit. The story is always good, but the details of it are very sketchy to me.

I believe this was addressed in TTH,IIRC. Shadow had had a temple, priest, priestess and such before ST and Cotillion. Remember the shadow dancers...Lostara Yil was one. And the one Priest in Shaik's army (can't recall his name) was a former priest. The one who went over to TCG. I believe there was always a Shadow cult, just no ruler of the realm. That's how I recall it. And at some point, wich is neither explained why or when, Quick and ST had a falling out? Or just because Quick left the cult as a Priest. Wasn't explained very well.

[Snowborn]

The Cult of Rashan disbanded shortly after Shadowthrone and Cotillion ascended, and, if Quick Ben was a priest or a member of the cult, ST and Cotillion might have mistrusted him, even though they had known him for so long. I imagine they were close before, or that they'd worked together with him as an advisor or something.

[Rhom]

I believe this was addressed in TTH,IIRC. Shadow had had a temple, priest, priestess and such before ST and Cotillion. Remember the shadow dancers...Lostara Yil was one. And the one Priest in Shaik's army (can't recall his name) was a former priest. The one who went over to TCG. I believe there was always a Shadow cult, just no ruler of the realm. That's how I recall it. And at some point, wich is neither explained why or when, Quick and ST had a falling out? Or just because Quick left the cult as a Priest. Wasn't explained very well.

It always felt like QB would have to have left the priesthood even before Kellanved ascended and disappeared. So if we go with that version of events and we say that QB left the cult long ago, then why would ST get worked up over it? He wasn't even Shadowthrone at that point.

As said above, I suppose its likely just best chalked up as a GotMism and move on. But these are the sorts of very real structural problems that prevent MBotF from being a great series to me. I see people complain all the time that Sanderson messed up the numbers of the armies in WoT, but that sort of thing pales in comparison to the structural problems in Erikson's series. I enjoy the highs of the books, but I really just feel like no planning went into them.

It seems like it did leap straight out of their D&D game, "Hey Ian! You know what would be awesome? A giant dude with a massive sword who says awesome things!"

"That would be cool. What if we also had a really old mysterious dude with no memory and a guy who follows him around."

"Okay... I like it, but what will he do?"

"Oh nothing... we'll just always talk about it like it'd be some serious shit if he ever did anything."

"Wow! I love it! What if our giant met up with the ancient dude?"

"Eh... might work. What if we just teased that they might meet up; but then they never do?"

"I love it!"

They plan out all these epic moments, with no real idea of how to get from point A to point B.

[Ghjhero]

It always felt like QB would have to have left the priesthood even before Kellanved ascended and disappeared. So if we go with that version of events and we say that QB left the cult long ago, then why would ST get worked up over it? He wasn't even Shadowthrone at that point.

As said above, I suppose its likely just best chalked up as a GotMism and move on. But these are the sorts of very real structural problems that prevent MBotF from being a great series to me. I see people complain all the time that Sanderson messed up the numbers of the armies in WoT, but that sort of thing pales in comparison to the structural problems in Erikson's series. I enjoy the highs of the books, but I really just feel like no planning went into them.It seems like it did leap straight out of their D&D game, "Hey Ian! You know what would be awesome? A giant dude with a massive sword who says awesome things!""That would be cool. What if we also had a really old mysterious dude with no memory and a guy who follows him around.""Okay... I like it, but what will he do?""Oh nothing... we'll just always talk about it like it'd be some serious shit if he ever did anything.""Wow! I love it! What if our giant met up with the ancient dude?""Eh... might work. What if we just teased that they might meet up; but then they never do?""I love it!"They plan out all these epic moments, with no real idea of how to get from point A to point B.

Thanks for the spoilers man! Really appreciated!

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

The Cult of Rashan disbanded shortly after Shadowthrone and Cotillion ascended, and, if Quick Ben was a priest or a member of the cult, ST and Cotillion might have mistrusted him, even though they had known him for so long. I imagine they were close before, or that they'd worked together with him as an advisor or something.

That sounds about right.

[Rhom]

Thanks for the spoilers man! Really appreciated!

Eh. I don't think there's spoilers there. I gave an over generalization. The alluded to characters have a purpose, just not the ones we might think.

[Darth Richard II]

Yeah, plus, how many big guys with swords are there? More than two, that's for sure.

[The Reckoner]

I think Erikson sort of admitted to your post, Rhom, about some of the stuff coming from their D&D game, in Toll the Hounds. About how the cool stuff is done arbitrarily to tell an entertaining story. Also, I've heard that the Malazan series is "post structuralist," whatever that means. Might be a buzzword like "grimdark." I do think there are merits to Erikson's approach, mainly that it kept me unsure of where the series was going or how it would come to a head. This is a big part of what I've enjoyed about the Book of the Fallen.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

It always felt like QB would have to have left the priesthood even before Kellanved ascended and disappeared. So if we go with that version of events and we say that QB left the cult long ago, then why would ST get worked up over it? He wasn't even Shadowthrone at that point.

As said above, I suppose its likely just best chalked up as a GotMism and move on. But these are the sorts of very real structural problems that prevent MBotF from being a great series to me. I see people complain all the time that Sanderson messed up the numbers of the armies in WoT, but that sort of thing pales in comparison to the structural problems in Erikson's series. I enjoy the highs of the books, but I really just feel like no planning went into them.

It seems like it did leap straight out of their D&D game, "Hey Ian! You know what would be awesome? A giant dude with a massive sword who says awesome things!"

"That would be cool. What if we also had a really old mysterious dude with no memory and a guy who follows him around."

"Okay... I like it, but what will he do?"

"Oh nothing... we'll just always talk about it like it'd be some serious shit if he ever did anything."

"Wow! I love it! What if our giant met up with the ancient dude?"

"Eh... might work. What if we just teased that they might meet up; but then they never do?"

"I love it!"

They plan out all these epic moments, with no real idea of how to get from point A to point B.

I agree with you, I said a few pages back that it felt when reading this series SE just put down whatever came to him. I do find it enjoyable and good overall story. I get where your coming from and hear plenty of people say a lot of storylines go unfinished.

[Darth Richard II]

Guys, Guys, it was a GURPS game.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Guys, Guys, it was a GURPS game.

What the hell is that? Truly have no idea.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@Ghjhero

I think @rhom was describing Karsa and Icarium. The did meet didn't they?

[Darth Richard II]

Oh come on, you don;t know what GURPs is? You have google don't you?

[Ghjhero]

@Ghjhero

I think @rhom was describing Karsa and Icarium. The did meet didn't they?

Yes I believe so, but last I checked they were both on the Tiste Edur ships sailing to Letheras. I was hoping their paths would intersect, but I guess they never do now.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Oh come on, you don;t know what GURPs is? You have google don't you?

OK I googled it. I didn't get into that stuff so I had no idea. I'm sure it was though.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@Ghjhero, I'm not spoiling you. But it was a bad example.

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

Starting TCG! I'm not cleansing my palate on anything. 1. DoD was too much a build up to the final book. 2. I just want to get this over with, then seek professional help.

[Lansoon]

I think Erikson sort of admitted to your post, Rhom, about some of the stuff coming from their D&D game, in Toll the Hounds. About how the cool stuff is done arbitrarily to tell an entertaining story. Also, I've heard that the Malazan series is "post structuralist," whatever that means. Might be a buzzword like "grimdark." I do think there are merits to Erikson's approach, mainly that it kept me unsure of where the series was going or how it would come to a head. This is a big part of what I've enjoyed about the Book of the Fallen.

No, post-structuralist doesn't mean anything remotely close to grimdark. It means that: "...there are many truths, that frameworks must bleed, and that structures must become unstable or decentered. Moreover, post-structuralism is also concerned with the power structures or hegemonies and power and how these elements contribute to and/or maintain structures to enforce hierarchy. Therefore, post-structural theory carries implications far beyond literary criticism." (Source: https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/722/08/) Of course, there's probably a lot more to the term than just this.

This was brought up in some interview, Erikson said he got into a discussion with someone who thinks his work is post-structuralist, but he sees the Malazan Book of the Fallen as postmodern. From what I've seen, nobody has ever taken that challenge of what is postmodern in the Malazan Book of the Fallen and just say it is. Is there any significances about any of this? I don't know.