Opinions on Ser Jorah Mormont

[Chebyshov]

Jorah's a great guy! Just a good-hearted man who occasionally sells humans, makes sexual advances at young girls, refuses to apologize for his treasonous actions, and chooses young sex-slaves in brothels to fulfill his fantasies.

[illrede]

A gentleman of the world, a man never at a loss.

A person who holds the distinction of having giving trenchant analysis of global events to third-parties while standing around post-flogging tattooed in a loincloth.

I like the character. He's an adventurer in the historic sense.

[Kyoshi]

I concede that he's an interesting figure. I just don't think he's a likable guy. Yeah sure, it's pretty ironic that he's in chains right now. I hope he learns. But I doubt he will.

I find it disturbing that he still saw Ned as the bad guy in the whole DON'T SELL SLAVES situation. Even after he was exiled to Essos and saw the effects of slavery he still didn't understand Ned's position on the matter. That bothered me big time.

[Mrs_Darcy]

Naa only guys can get friendzoned.

See, if you love a woman and she rejects you, there's something wrong with her-else why'd she turn you down?

If a woman loves you and you turn her down, there's obviously something wrong with her, else why would you reject her?

Great answer :)

[Mrs_Darcy]

Jorah's a great guy! Just a good-hearted man who occasionally sells humans, makes sexual advances at young girls, refuses to apologize for his treasonous actions, and chooses young sex-slaves in brothels to fulfill his fantasies.

... wants to sell children to brothels and wants to buy Unsullied, even though he knows, how they have been created.

[Hodor's Dragon]

What's your opinion on Jorah? Although an ex-slaver do you believe him to be a moral person? Do you think he deserved to be exiled by Daenerys?

I know Daenerys has to set an example to her council that no matter what, treason against her will not be tolerated. But personally I believe Jorah more than redeemed himself for his past actions before she even found out. I also feel kinda bad for the guy seeing as he had 2 failed marriages and he just wants to try and make Daenerys happy.

Sure he "deserved" to be exiled. Hell, he put her life in danger and Rhaego's life, and a queen can't tolerate that. OTOH, Dany couldn't afford to lose him, and she needs him back. Whether he "deserved" it or not, it was a mistake. She should have found some other way to punish him.

What I like about Jorah is that he understands the plight of the smallfolk. Yeah, he sold people into slavery a long time ago, but while I'm watching I see him give Dany advice that has heart. He's perfect for her as an advisor, because they're both on the same page as to how rulership should be done.

I think the poster who said he could get some sex if he just came on a little more cool is probably right. Dany likes sex, and she is not unattracted to Jorah. I think she rebuffed his advances because she valued him more as an advisor and thought a sexual relationship would get in the way of that, and she was probably right about that.

As to the "creepy" that gets thrown around, I couldn't disagree more. Let me quote myself from another thread on that:

What's creepy to me is that people are imposing rigid restraints on people's behavior because of arbitrary numbers. Because - in this situation - that's all the age difference between Jorah and Dany means: numbers.

There's a particular reason that we think of older men and young girls as "creepy." It's a familiar story. An older, sophisticated guy with money and possessions overwhelms a younger girl by showing her things she has never seen, giving her experiences she has never had, and let's throw her a few drinks that she doesn't know how to handle. The next thing you know he has given her a venereal disease or a baby and is on his way to the next victim with no regard for her shattered emotional state. It's a very sad story, not uncommon, and a solid reason for development of social norms and a taboo.

It's also utterly inapplicable to Jorah and Dany. He's older and that's about it. There is not the slightest ghost of the idea that Jorah is manipulating Dany because of her youth. He makes no attempt to snow or overwhelm her, and he would crash and burn in flames if he did try it, because you know what? Dany's no child. She's more than a match for him in pretty much every way you can figure.

Let's look at her scorecard:

• She has been married;

Her marriage turned into a love match because she took control with a commanding sexual performance;

She got pregnant and carried the child to term;

She has lost a husband and a child;

She led her tribe through the trackless wastes to safe haven;

She navigated the treacherous politics of Qarth;

She has conquered 3 cities and freed their slaves, and one of the conquests was via a treacherous stratagem that was entirely her idea and one she didn't even discuss with anyone else;

Raised 3 dragons without a manual or a dragonfood store in the neighborhood;

Took a sellsword into her bed solely for sex;

Is a famous conqueror widely called the most beautiful woman in the world. Her sexual allure is a valuable tool of statecraft.

You think she's a child? Well, she's not, I don't care what the numbers on her birth certificate say. Is it sad that she lost her childhood? Maybe a little, but she has certainly made lemonade from the lemons instead of sitting around squirting the juice into her eyes for a tearfest. Whatever may have happened long ago, by now her childhood is long, long gone and she should be able to live her adult life, including her love life, as she chooses.

It may be a little uncomfortable for her that Jorah has this unrequited love thing for her, but he is keeping it thoroughly under control, even getting along with Daario to some extent, and in the meanwhile he is a valuable addition to her team, a man of proven loyalties and capabilities. From his perspective, he's only human and her presence is overwhelming. She's not just a beautiful woman, she's a magical creature and a charismatic messiah figure. She veritably glows with power. Cut him some frickin' slack, he has fallen in love with her but he has also been mature about it.

Finally, though? I'm not at all sure that I trust him on that Rhaego thing. Why did Dany not insist on seeing the body? Why did Jorah look so guilty when the topic came up? I wouldn't be surprised if Rhaego is alive and Jorah knows where he is. That's pretty much the only thing that keeps me from being a full-on Jorah fan.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What I like about Jorah is that he understands the plight of the smallfolk. Yeah, he sold people into slavery a long time ago, but while I'm watching I see him give Dany advice that has heart. He's perfect for her as an advisor, because they're both on the same page as to how rulership should be done.

And advocated selling small boys and girls to brothels not very long ago...

[Mrs_Darcy]

Sure he "deserved" to be exiled. Hell, he put her life in danger and Rhaego's life, and a queen can't tolerate that. OTOH, Dany couldn't afford to lose him, and she needs him back. Whether he "deserved" it or not, it was a mistake. She should have found some other way to punish him.

What I like about Jorah is that he understands the plight of the smallfolk. Yeah, he sold people into slavery a long time ago, but while I'm watching I see him give Dany advice that has heart. He's perfect for her as an advisor, because they're both on the same page as to how rulership should be done.

I think the poster who said he could get some sex if he just came on a little more cool is probably right. Dany likes sex, and she is not unattracted to Jorah. I think she rebuffed his advances because she valued him more as an advisor and thought a sexual relationship would get in the way of that, and she was probably right about that.

As to the "creepy" that gets thrown around, I couldn't disagree more. Let me quote myself from another thread on that:

Finally, though? I'm not at all sure that I trust him on that Rhaego thing. Why did Dany not insist on seeing the body? Why did Jorah look so guilty when the topic came up? I wouldn't be surprised if Rhaego is alive and Jorah knows where he is. That's pretty much the only thing that keeps me from being a full-on Jorah fan.

The real problem I have with the Dany-Jorah-relationship is that I a not sure, whether Jorah genuinely loves Dany as a person or whether he just wants to be with her, because she looks like his former wife.

I somehow rather think, it's the latter.

As for him selling people into slavery: I never had the impression, that he genuinely regretted, what he had done. The main sentiment of Jorah regarding his part in selling Westerosi into slavery, at least how I read it, seems to be anger at Ned Stark for wanting to punish him.

If he genuinely regretted what he had had done, he would neither advocate selling children into brothels nor buying slave soldiers.

[Hodor's Dragon]

And advocated selling small boys and girls to brothels not very long ago...

I didn't say he's their hero. I said he understands them. He makes some very perceptive comments about their situation - and how to better it - to Dany. You pretty much don't hear that from other lords.

[TheKingUpNorth]

Jorahs fatal flaw was he never thought logically when it involved women. The only reason he tried to sell thoose 3 men into slavery so was to keep his wife happy. Thoose pitcher would have either been killed or send to the wall so it wasn't as if he was getting rid of innocent men . Remember Maester Aemons words ,'love is the death of duty' and so Jorahs love weakned his duty and honour

[Knight Owl]

While on the Jorah topic, what is the exact law and sentence in Westeros for hunting on a lord's land? I know that in medieval times in parts of Europe there were penalties but I am not sure how bad the sentence was?

Good question. Based on information I came across in various parts of the book, and even some talk in the show, it seems as though there are normally two options for punishing poachers in Westeros. They can either be sent to the Wall unharmed, or lose a hand for their transgression. I suppose a lord could always be merciful and let them off with a slap of the hand, but if not, then one of the previously listed options.

[NorthernXY]

3. He didn't more than redeem himself even before she found out about the betrayal. He wasn't even remorseful; he didn't even apologise. He only said, "you must forgive me...I have loved you." That doesn't show remorse, it shows entitlement. Also, the crime may have been ancient to him but it was still new to Dany. She had just found out about it. To her, it had just happened at that moment, it was fresh. They were in different states of dealing with the betrayal.

Dany is the queen of entitlement.

Jorah is too old for Dany, he's 45 and she's 16. There have been marriages in Westeros with greater age gaps, but Dany is a 16 year old girl with nobody to tell her what to do. She's going to hook-up with whoever is the hottest, coolest guy around.

Jorah like most characters has his flaws to dislike him, and misfortunes to sympathize. Selling slaves and not really taking responsibility for the evil, hating/disliking Ned for wanting to enforce the law, but also losing one wife in childbirth then the next one leaving him after he soiled his reputation to make her happy. Might as well join the Night's Watch and not have to deal with any more problems with the opposite sex. It's not like he isn't accustomed to the cold.

[Winter's Knight]

Dany is the queen of entitlement.

Jorah is too old for Dany, he's 45 and she's 16. There have been marriages in Westeros with greater age gaps, but Dany is a 16 year old girl with nobody to tell her what to do. She's going to hook-up with whoever is the hottest, coolest guy around.

Jorah like most characters has his flaws to dislike him, and misfortunes to sympathize. Selling slaves and not really taking responsibility for the evil, hating/disliking Ned for wanting to enforce the law, but also losing one wife in childbirth then the next one leaving him after he soiled his reputation to make her happy. Might as well join the Night's Watch and not have to deal with any more problems with the opposite sex. It's not like he isn't accustomed to the cold.

Somebody get this comment a fedora.

[James Arryn]

If anyone reads Bernard Cornwell, Jorah is basically a BC lead character.

Tough as nails hulking warrior, pragmatic and perceptive leader, capable of great sins and great sacrifices, can interact with nobility or peasants and everything in between, jaded and cynical except capable of extreme devotion/loyalty to the right leader, troubled background/family dynamic, wisdom in most things except for the glaring blind spot when it comes to love, openly rejects some basic tenets of conventional morality, etc.

He could be Sharpe or Uhtred or Derfel Cadarn, really.

[Winter's Knight]

If anyone reads Bernard Cornwell, Jorah is basically a BC lead character.

Tough as nails hulking warrior, pragmatic and perceptive leader, capable of great sins and great sacrifices, can interact with nobility or peasants and everything in between, jaded and cynical except capable of extreme devotion/loyalty to the right leader, troubled background/family dynamic, wisdom in most things except for the glaring blind spot when it comes to love, openly rejects some basic tenets of conventional morality, etc.

He could be Sharpe or Uhtred or Derfel Cadarn, really.

Really? It's been ages since I've read Sharpe (or watched the TV movies-lovely soundtrack) and I remember Sharpe being much better around women.

[James Arryn]

Really? It's been ages since I've read Sharpe (or watched the TV movies-lovely soundtrack) and I remember Sharpe being much better around women.

No, he's generally naive and often manipulated in that area, when it becomes emotional for him. He has a couple of good relationships, but it's really down to what the woman is like, not what he's like. If they are the type to use others, he's there to be used. If she's not a bad person but not really in love with him, he'll bend over backwards to try and win her affections. Most of his bad decisions involve women; he's in the army itself because of killing someone in a bar fight over a woman.

His first love, Mary, leaves him after he makes sacrifices to get permission to marry her. Simone dallies with him and takes off with his booty.

He also has disastrous relationships with a blackmailer and a French spy. His wife Jane cheats on him, steals all his money and leaves him facing the death penalty for a crime of which she knows he's innocent.

He's attractive to women so he has many relationships, but as I said, their quality is almost entirely based on the woman's character, not his judgment. As his right hand man/best friend Harper says; "He'll fall in love with anything in a petticoat. I've seen his type before. Got the sense of a half-witted sheep when it comes to women."

Which basically describes most BC lead males. Oh, Thomas of Hookton as well.

[Knight Owl]

I find Jorah to be an interesting, but often times frustrating character. He strikes me as amoral, which in turn leads him to exhibit a very pragmatic nature. He's a realist that sees the world as it is, not how it would ideally be, and this viewpoint makes him an extremely effective advisor to Daenerys. If Ned Stark had just half the pragmatism as Jorah, he would likely still be alive.

Yes, he seemed puzzled by Daenerys insistence that the rape of women be stopped during one of Kahl Drogo's attacks, but that concern is shown to be justified when members of the Khalasar are outraged by what they see as a denial of their rights. Jorah cautioning didn't mean he was in favor the rapes occuring, he simply acknowledged it as a reality, and saw nothing to be gained by trying to stop it. He also advised that Dany acquire Unsullied in Astapor, and while some cite this as evidence he is still a wicked slaver at heart, it's a very logical and prudent recommendation imo. The fact of the matter is that the Unsullied are what they are, they have already been cut and molded into deadly soldiers. Passing over them from a sense of moral outrage is all well and good, but it would gain Dany nothing in the long run.

Jorah is a brusque, matter of fact individual, but imo he is also Dany's most effective advisor. He may lack the rigid honor of a Selmy and Ned Stark, but that is a positive to me as it leads to very practical advice. He's ultimately a very imperfect character with a lot to offer.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

If anyone reads Bernard Cornwell, Jorah is basically a BC lead character.

Cornwell's books are way darker though, making his characters appear better in comparison.

[James Arryn]

Cornwell's books are way darker though, making his characters appear better in comparison.

Arguable, yes. Additionally his books are almost entirely from the Jorah type's POV. If ASOIAF were written entirely from Jorah's POV, the exact same actions/qualities would seem a lot more sympathetic to the readers.

[NorthernXY]

Somebody get this comment a fedora.

Already have one, how else would I complete my Indiana Jones outfit?