daskool Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Daskool,If you acknowledge RT is the mouthpeice of the Russian Government offering pre-masticated propaganda why would you every believe anything it says without some corroboration from another source?Um where have I said I believe everything RT says? I think they're a propaganda outfit for the Kremlin, and I also reckon they're pretty open about that. I was simply commenting on the assertion that the BBC are some kind of paragon of impartiality when clearly they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 France postpones the delivery of the first of two helicopter carriers they are selling to Russia due to Russia's actions in Ukraine. http://fr.reuters.com/article/topNews/idFRKBN0GY22N20140903 (in French) Presumably it was too embarrassing to not do something about it before the NATO meeting. Yeah that'll stick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 The point Scot is that RT is completely open and straightforward regarding it's biases, the BBC OTOH pretends complete impartiality but often buries stories or slants them to suit it's agenda. There's a difference between a "news" organisation that is the propaganda mouthpiece of a government, and a news organisations that are reluctant to publish a story that would put themselves in a bad light. I wouldn't trust the first one if they claimed that the moon circled the earth, for the second I would have no problem trusting stories unrelated to themselves. In other news, Obama have announced that US lead military exercises will take place in Ukraine in a few weeks. This should be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 Iceman,We're going to put boots on the ground in Ukraine? Really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daskool Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Iceman,We're going to put boots on the ground in Ukraine? Really?It's a joint training exercise for the new NATO rapid reaction force, also known as 'sending a message'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerraPrime Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 We're going to put boots on the ground in Ukraine? Really? No, we're not. The U.S. is providing material and personnel support to NATO's readiness exercise. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Iceman,We're going to put boots on the ground in Ukraine? Really?I'm trying to find a link to this, I was just half listening to what he said on the news. I'm not sure if it involves US troops on the ground, the term I heard was "US lead". Could be a navy exercise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted September 3, 2014 Author Share Posted September 3, 2014 TP,No, we're not. The U.S. is providing material and personnel support to NATO's readiness exercise. ;-)A ground forces NATO exercise in Ukraine? Really?Iceman,A Naval exercise I can see. The Russians will react poorly to a NATO ground exercise in Ukraine. Are you sure you didn't hear one of the Baltic States or Poland?It really is a ground forces exercise in Ukraine near the Polish border:http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN0GX23Q20140902?irpc=932 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Iceman of the North Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Iceman,A Naval exercise I can see. The Russians will react poorly to a NATO ground exercise in Ukraine. Are you sure you didn't hear one of the Baltic States or Poland?Nah, the exercise in Estonia was earlier this summer. U.S., allies to stage exercise in Western Ukraine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Oh I'm not disagreeing with you, RT is an openly biased tool of the Kremlin. Western reporters resigning in protest is one of the more amusing by products of the Ukrainian civil war. Wtf did they think they were signing up for? The point Scot is that RT is completely open and straightforward regarding it's biases, the BBC OTOH pretends complete impartiality but often buries stories or slants them to suit it's agenda. Even if we admit this, where's the proof they are biased on this issue? Why should we not believe the BBC's reporting on Ukraine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Nah, the exercise in Estonia was earlier this summer. U.S., allies to stage exercise in Western Ukraine This sounds like the Russian ICBM tests earlier this year. Was gonna happen anyway but is now being tweaked slightly to send a message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fallen Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 So the Rapid Reaction Force appeared in the news within the last week for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Great article from the UK Guardian. Talking about how every enemy leader from Egypt's Nasser, to Saddam Hussain, to Milosevic and now Putin has been compared to Hitler by Western politicians, in order to stifle reasoned debate. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/03/david-cameron-cynicism-comparing-vladimir-putin-adolf-hitler-ukraine The concluding paragraph: War between the west and Russia is clearly unthinkable, and only a negotiated settlement involving all parties in Ukraine can provide lasting peace. The ceasefire announced by Ukraine and Russia is promising, and needs to be supported to ensure that it lasts. Let’s resist the Hitler comparisons, which intend simply to shut down any reasoned discussion, to demonise all those who are not hawks, and to ratchet up tension. Soon enough, though, western leaders will settle on a new enemy number one, and the Hitler comparisons will begin all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weirwood Druid Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Good stuff. Have you gotten feedback from the Ukrainians and Belarusians? It would be interesting to get their take on it. Before this conflict happened there was this brotherhood of Ukraine, Belarus and Russia. That feeling of brotherhood between Ukraine-Russia is now truly gone(as one might expect) one only needs go to either of Pro-Ukrainian or Pro-Russian pages on VK and you will see the comment section is filled with crude pictures of either Putin sucking Ukraine's dick or Poroshenko sucking America's dick and much more banal stuff. You don't even need to participate in that to attract hatred as I have seen profiles of people who have just one image on their profile supporting their cause get attacked. A lot of the Ukrainians I have met and know now really hate Russia and they already love the idea of NATO intervening and making the Kremlin burn to the ground. The Ukrainians in the west are noticeably more radical than the ones in the east and south. It must also be said that Ukrainians are way more westernised than both Russians and Belarusians, they really like the idea to be a part of Europe. I happen to know some Ukrainians who are Pro-Russians but they don't really have any real reason for supporting Russia except for that feeling of brotherhood with Russia and the west is just far away. they turn a blind eye to the mass corruption of Russia and the suppression of human rights, they just like to wave that away. Belarusians are a different folk, they are kind of a passive aggressive version of Ukrainians. They don't like it when you call them Russians or the fact that their language is dying but unlike the Ukrainians they can't be bothered to actually do something about it. Belarusians still love Ukrainians dearly and there have been some who went to Ukraine and help out during the Euromaidan revolution. The conflict has some spill over in Belarus as people in Minsk try to show their support for either side with flags on top of their cars, those who do this get their car tires stabbed for their trouble. In general they don't like picking either side. The Russian propaganda has done its work here too as the earlier polls showed a bigger leaning to the EU than Russia among the populace but ever since this conflict started the support for Russia is higher now than that of the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 See, you keep saying "the west did ratchet up tensions from a Russian POV" and then cite a bunch of stuff not done by the West but by Ukraine itself. Because that's what this is actually about. The West may be cheering Ukraine's move towards linking up with Europe, but they aren't the main actors here. This has always been about Ukraine moving away from Russia and Russia trying to bitchslap them back into line. Russia will not back down on this because it means admitting that they are losing their hegemony. But while they may say this is all about western aggression, and hell they may even be delusional enough to believe it, this is still all about the Ukraine trying to cut ties with them. Russia can't let a piece as big as the Ukraine get out from under their boot and that is ultimately the demand they are making and the key component of the only kind of agreement they will be comfortable with here before anything re-normalizes. Again, as the situation right now directly demonstrates, they are far more interested in keeping that boot on Ukraine's neck then they are in economic ties with Europe. To sum it all up, the perceived threat to Russian interests is based here on Ukraine wanting to forge ties with Europe rather then Russia and that's not something that's going to go away and not something Russia seems ready to accept. And so unless the West decides it doesn't care anymore, the situation is not gonna calm down all that much. And the US at the very least has no reason not to keep the pressure on. They are politically extremely powerful here, have little to lose in a sanction war with Russia because of the lack of connections and are 100% politically primed to take this shit to the limit. And even a deal with the West is not all that meaningful since, again, this is about what Ukraine was doing, not what the US or the EU was doing. The Russians are more interested in regional hegemony then economic ties, the Ukrainians mostly don't want to have much to do with the Russians and want more ties to Europe and the US has no reason to stop pushing Europe into an anti-Russian stance. The only impetus for anyone to back down here you've cited is "economic ties" and that's demonstratively not the forefront concern for anyone here because that's why the situation is as it is in the first place. If economic concerns were what mattered, this situation wouldn't even exist. No matter how many times you make lip-service to the facts of the situation, you can't help but continually circle back in some sort of freudian-slip-fashion to your framing of this as NATO expansion into Ukraine and everyone just wanting to go back to doing business. Despite neither being supported by the evidence. For Russia to back down would mean to accept Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. They are never going to allow that to happen short of a military defeat. So yes they are more concerned with their National security than with economic relations with the EU. But if they could have their security guaranteed then they would most certainly want to get back to improving relations. Specifically trade relations. But as long as NATO is adamant about expanding towards Russia in order to contain them or have the threat of their presence on Russian borders make the Russians toe the line, then Russia will react aggressively. It's the only way they know how and truth be told the only thing NATO understands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horza Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 From the article: "...safe distance that will make artillery and other strikes on populated areas impossible" Oh, no biggie then. The maximum effective range of Ukraine's BM-30 Smerch rocket artillery is 70km, so that would just require the Ukrainian army to vacate almost the entire Donbass region (and beyond, in some spots), but I'm sure the rebels totally won't wander back into those areas and lock them down for the subsequent negotiations, and as Russia isn't a party to the conflict there's no possibility its artillery would find itself even further into Ukraine. No, this sounds like a great cease fire plan, I'm sure the Ukrainian government won't object to any of that. ------------- More on Russian forces in the battle for Ilovaisk Sky news gets footage of the little green men near Mariupol France has the decency to at least suspend sale of first Mistral to Russia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 A opinion piece on why NATO should have been dissolved. Good article. Also, Putin is in Mongolia to boost trade. Story. Joseph Nye on the difficulties in creating a sound strategy to deal with Russia. How to deter without isolating Russia. Medvedev names Russians terms for resumption of gas cooperation. And while Obama and others state that they know Russian troops are involved in Ukraine the US State department has stated they have no independent proof of this. Is that what was actually said?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snake Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Sorry for spamming the thread but two more interesting opinions on the crisis in Ukraine. The first by Sir Tony Brenton former UK ambassador to Russia. The second by Alexander Yakovenko Russian ambassador to the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghjhero Posted September 3, 2014 Share Posted September 3, 2014 Putin can't get any more textbook than this. Negotiating from a place of power is what he's wanted all along. What are the chances Ukraine accepts his 7 point peace plan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted September 4, 2014 Share Posted September 4, 2014 For Russia to back down would mean to accept Ukraine and Georgia in NATO. They are never going to allow that to happen short of a military defeat. So yes they are more concerned with their National security than with economic relations with the EU. But if they could have their security guaranteed then they would most certainly want to get back to improving relations. Specifically trade relations. But as long as NATO is adamant about expanding towards Russia in order to contain them or have the threat of their presence on Russian borders make the Russians toe the line, then Russia will react aggressively. It's the only way they know how and truth be told the only thing NATO understands. But NATO wasn't adamant about expanding towards Russia. Ukraine joining NATO wasn't on the table and isn't what caused this. So what meaning would these security guarantees have that didn't exist before? This is what I'm talking about. You keep acting like this is related to NATO expansion rather then what actually triggered the crisis, which is Ukraine not tying itself to the Russian trade compact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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