The Walrus Men & Origins of the Wildlings

[Crowfood's Daughter]

The First Men would have been hundreds of tribes (you could call them small kingdoms but that is glorifying them). They were fairly uncivilised, Bran's vision showed an early Stark use a Bronze weapon to sacrifice someone before a Weirwood Tree. These Starks were probably a tribe's leader, perhaps several tibes' leader.

Theon aka "Reek" did mention that a king was in place at the time of arrival of the First Men. He is buried in the Great Barrow of Barrowtown.

These First Men would not have been any different to the Wildlings.

If the First Men and the Wildlings were not "any different" why would there be Wildlings be present during the long night?

"They're not your lands! We've been here the whole time! You lot came along and just put up a big Wall and said it was yours!"

“The gods made the earth for all men t' share. Only when the kings come with their crowns and steel swords, they claimed it was all theirs.”

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Wildings before and during the Long Night

According to Old Nan’s tales, the wildlings were already present during the Long Night. “He remembered the hearth tales Old Nan told them. ‘The wildlings were cruel men, she said, slavers and slayers and thieves. They consorted with giants and ghouls, stole girl children in the dead of night, and drank blood from polished horns. And their women lay with the Others in the Long Night to sire terrible half-human children’. “ (Bran I, AGoT)

rather inchoate manuscript Strange Stone postulates that both fortress and seat might be the work of a queer, misshapen race of half men sired by creatures of the salt seas upon human women. These Deep Ones, as he names them, are the seed from which our legends of merlings have grown, he argues, whilst their terrible fathers are the truth behind the Drowned God of the ironborn. The lavish, detailed, and somewhat disturbing illustrations included in Strange Stone make this rare volume fascinating to peruse, but the text is impenetrable in parts; Maester Theron had a gift for drawing but little skill with words. In any case, his thesis has no factual basis and may safely be dismissed. And thus we find ourselves back whence we began, forced to concede that the beginnings of Oldtown, Battle Isle, and its fortress must forever remain a mystery to us. The reasons for the abandonment of the fortress and the fate of its builders, whoever they might have been, are likewise lost to us, but at some point we know that Battle Isle and its great stronghold came into the possession of the ancestors of House Hightower. Were they First Men, as most scholars believe today? Or did they mayhaps descend from the seafarers and traders who had settled at the top of Whispering Sound in earlier epochs, the men who came before the First Men? We cannot know.---oldtown chapter

[John Suburbs]

Maybe it was the Squishers.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Yes, but that fortress could have been built by First Men or not, so it isn't a slam dunk that it represents a "pre-First Men civilization." All we know is that the fortress came into possession of the Hightowers at some point and it is not known whether it was built by earlier First Men or someone else.

I have never assumed that the fort was built by them...My assumption was that there was a civilization established prior to the first men and the wildlings descend from them.

[John Suburbs]

I have never assumed that the fort was built by them...My assumption was that there was a civilization established prior to the first men and the wildlings descend from them.

That's a valid assumption, but that is different from saying TWoIaF confirms that there was a pre First Men civ. The fortresses could have been built by the First Men. The evidence is unclear to the Maesters.

[TheWanderer]

My assumption was that there was a civilization established prior to the first men and the wildlings descend from them.

But... we know that there was civilization in Westeros prior to the first men. If these artifacts were in fact built by an earlier civilization (which has yet to be conclusively proven) then they would most likely have been built by these peoples. But we know that these people didn't become the wildlings because wildlings are human and the Children are not.

A king was in place upon the settlement of Westeros 12,000 years ago prior to the events currently taking place. Also it has been mentioned that there were a hundred kingdoms during the age of heroes. The tribe theory works but it doesn’t fit with the information we have been given in asoiaf.

What do you call the leader of a tribe? The First Men called them Magnar. But what does Magnar mean? The Andals translated it as King, because King's lead the Andals, but that doesn't mean that's what they were. Sachem aren't kings but they were sometimes called that by Europeans, because Europeans imposed there own cultural values and roles onto individuals from other cultures. That's what the Andals did, they talk about Kings and Kingdoms because they lived in kingdoms ruled by kings. They have no concept of what a 'tribe' is, or how it is distinct from a kingdom. That's why knights are said to have existed before the Andals brought chivalry and Knighthood to Westeros. Indeed, the quote you've posted from Ygritte can be seen to support this. "Kings came with iron swords", we know the First Men didn't have iron and we know that the Andals did. It would seem then that she's talking about the Andals, who we know conquered lands held by the First Men.

Further, the wildlings are the only humans who still speak a language explitedly called the Old Tongue of the First Men. It would be very strange if they adopted a language forgotten by the invaders who gave it to them.

[Blazfemur]

All Wildlings, are First Men. According to Fomas (TWOIAF), a group of First Men branched off north, and became the first Others in existence (still in debate over how).

The wall was erected.

Suddenly, all First Men south of the wall can follow a King, and all First Men north of the wall dont. Important information to speculate.

In fact, there's a Barrow where Robert takes Ned, when they were talking of Rhaegar and Wylla, it was the Barrow of the First Men. A graveyard specifically dedicated to First Men -- between Winterfell & the Wall (Those that refused to kneel?)

[Crowfood's Daughter]

All Wildlings, are First Men. According to Fomas (TWOIAF), a group of First Men branched off north, and became the first Others in existence (still in debate over how).

The wall was erected.

Suddenly, all First Men south of the wall can follow a King, and all First Men north of the wall dont. Important information to speculate.

In fact, there's a Barrow where Robert takes Ned, when they were talking of Rhaegar and Wylla, it was the Barrow of the First Men. A graveyard specifically dedicated to First Men -- between Winterfell & the Wall (Those that refused to kneel?)

Yes, the Maesters believe the Wildlings descend from the First Men, that I cannot argue. What I believe is that the Wildings descend from a people who were settled in Westeros prior to the First Men. Over the millennia, the Maesters, who did not begin their studies until after the settlement of the Andals confused the "first men" and the "First Men" lumping them into one people. The Maesters cannot even agree on when the Andals settled and that history was much more recent. The wildlings such as Ygritte may know of such history through song and story much like Bael the Bard or The Last of the Giants.

The wildlings had tribes like they do in present day Westeros and the First Men had Kings. Such as the First King buried in Barrowtown who supposedly led the settlement of Westeros, and the King of the True Men which was a title before the long night 10,000 years prior to the ASOIAF events.

If you look at what Fomas says, something seems off. He believes the Others were really just men and nothing more.

"Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients - though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands - does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion."

[John Suburbs]

Well, we know that the Others are not just men. Sam's encounter north of the wall should be proof of that.

The only reference to the King of the True Men that I can find is Osgood Shett, who ruled the Vale for a time before the Andal invasion. It was supposedly an ancient title, but I can't find anything that says it came from a pre- First Men civilization.

[Fred Dii]

Considering this question it would be nice to know why the wall was build exactly there. It would make sense that the first men build the wall south of the last wildling village to cut them off.

How possible is it that the wildlings arrived through the north, i mean the unknown land far behind the wall, the lands of always winter. If the world is round there must be something behind this land and there has to be a way from this lands to Southoryon in some way (probably cut off by sea). If GRRM was accurate with geography the world of ASOIAF must be much larger than any map shows, because Southoryos is very warm and must be at the aquator, which means the distance from north pole (lands of always winter) and Southoryos is only 1/4 of the actual circumference of the world, which makes a land beyond the lands of always winter very possible. I speculate that the wildlings came from there and later arrived by the sea, although the origin of both was the same.

This can also explain that the others derived from the first men, although i don´t believe that. The question is why the others invaded the southern lands during the long night. Did they bring the long night or were they forced to go south because of the long night. If the others existed before the long night, why didn´t they invade the lands south. They are the enemies of all living beings.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Its interesting that Ygritte says your kings came with their Iron Swords, but supposedly the first men who only used bronze built the wall.

[Blazfemur]

Yes, the Maesters believe the Wildlings descend from the First Men, that I cannot argue. What I believe is that the Wildings descend from a people who were settled in Westeros prior to the First Men. Over the millennia, the Maesters, who did not begin their studies until after the settlement of the Andals confused the "first men" and the "First Men" lumping them into one people. The Maesters cannot even agree on when the Andals settled and that history was much more recent. The wildlings such as Ygritte may know of such history through song and story much like Bael the Bard or The Last of the Giants.

The wildlings had tribes like they do in present day Westeros and the First Men had Kings. Such as the First King buried in Barrowtown who supposedly led the settlement of Westeros, and the King of the True Men which was a title before the long night 10,000 years prior to the ASOIAF events.

If you look at what Fomas says, something seems off. He believes the Others were really just men and nothing more.

"Archmaester Fomas's Lies of the Ancients - though little regarded these days for its erroneous claims regarding the founding of Valyria and certain lineal claims in the Reach and westerlands - does speculate that the Others of legend were nothing more than a tribe of the First Men, ancestors of the wildlings, that established itself in the far north. Because of the Long Night, these early wildlings were then pressured to begin a wave of conquests to the south. That they became monstrous in the tales told thereafter, according to Fomas, reflects the desire of the Night's Watch and the Starks to give themselves a more heroic identity as saviors of mankind, and not merely the beneficiaries of a struggle over dominion."

I would suggest the powers of Other, were granted to, that group of First Men. Just as The Night's King, granted Craster's baby it's tranformation to Other.

Further, if we take the location on the map in the extreme northwest of the wall, logic would dictate we appear south east on the map eventually -- in the heart of darkness in the shadowlands/asshai area.

I would even further suggest that the secret ingredient (like the blood of valyria to dragons/blood magic/valyrian spellforging), to Other and frost magic, is First Men blood. It's the basis for Craster incest, like Targaryen incest on the other side of the world. The more incest, the more inbreeding, the more potent the ingredient in the blood becomes without being diluted.

Well, we know that the Others are not just men. Sam's encounter north of the wall should be proof of that.

The only reference to the King of the True Men that I can find is Osgood Shett, who ruled the Vale for a time before the Andal invasion. It was supposedly an ancient title, but I can't find anything that says it came from a pre- First Men civilization.

Others could be First Men, altered by magic. Supposedly int he book theyre gorgeous and beautiful -- dont take the show's depiction to heart. Others are NOT zombies. They hae magical weapons and armor that glimmer like a mirror, or the surface of a pool of water. Theyre magical beings -- or at least humans that were transformed or altered by magic.

Its interesting that Ygritte says your kings came with their Iron Swords, but supposedly the first men who only used bronze built the wall.

Indeed. The Andals suppsedly invaded, using iron as weapons against the First Men. As Ygritte says "your kings," she's inadvertantly specifically distancing herself as First Men wielding bronze by segregating iron-wielders as "Your" kings. She doesnt know Jon has First Men blood.

Now we know half the First Men sided with the Andals when they invaded (who introduced a 'leader' concept), and those that didnt side with the Andals fought them and their ways. Then the wall was erected (I still say by Others, and then they lost it to the First Men/Andal Alliance, who THEN recruited Bran The Builder to build the castles and forts on THEIR huge wall of ice). The wall directly divides First Men houses that sided with Andals (and a 'king' concept), with those that refused to kneel and follow Andal ways, (Wildling). Those south of the wall that sided with the Andals became modern day northern houses, Stark, Bolton, any others that harbor First Men blood in the north, while those who distanced themselves remain north of the wall.

First Men blood, grants Stark's the ability of prophetic dream. NOT the name of Stark. Just as the Valyrian in Targaryen blood allows them to "tame" dragons & prophetic dream, NOT their House name, Targaryen. The power is in the blood. And the more incest, the more inbreeding of this, with less dilution.

The group of First Men that branched off though, what gave them Other ability. I still have this nagging feeling the ice gift was given to them, or they found it, somehow. Further, (according to show-only), only The Night's King can give this gift, while other Others appear to only resurrect wights.

[John Suburbs]

Others could be First Men, altered by magic. Supposedly int he book theyre gorgeous and beautiful -- dont take the show's depiction to heart. Others are NOT zombies. They hae magical weapons and armor that glimmer like a mirror, or the surface of a pool of water. Theyre magical beings -- or at least humans that were transformed or altered by magic.

Of course the Others could be First Men altered by magic. They could also be elephants from under sea. There just isn't enough evidence in the text to form any definite conclusions. We know they are not men because of they way they succumb to dragonglass. We also know they have a language and an organization of sorts, which suggests they have some kind of civilization.

And regardless of whether they are their own race or altered humans, it really doesn't have any bearing on the story.

But random speculation is part of the fun here, so have at it.

[Blazfemur]

Of course the Others could be First Men altered by magic. They could also be elephants from under sea. There just isn't enough evidence in the text to form any definite conclusions. We know they are not men because of they way they succumb to dragonglass. We also know they have a language and an organization of sorts, which suggests they have some kind of civilization.

And regardless of whether they are their own race or altered humans, it really doesn't have any bearing on the story.

But random speculation is part of the fun here, so have at it.

the lack of evidence is what prevents anyone from committing to a theory. i would have you believe the key to unlocking the Other in someone, or having them capable of receiving such a gift, is in the blood, and the specialized blood being First Men blood (thus the reason for craster's incest, and 'protection' of his daughters -- to prevent contamination of the bloodline, and to make it even more potent throughout each generation of incest)

[Dorian Martell]

The Maesters know that the First men were called that for a reason. It is inscribed in runes on stone as were the CTOF and Giants. The Seastone Chair and the base of the hightower are anomalies that drive the theory that folks were there before the first men, but that is it. No civilizations, writing or anything else

[Crowfood's Daughter]

I would suggest the powers of Other, were granted to, that group of First Men. Just as The Night's King, granted Craster's baby it's tranformation to Other.

Further, if we take the location on the map in the extreme northwest of the wall, logic would dictate we appear south east on the map eventually -- in the heart of darkness in the shadowlands/asshai area.

I would even further suggest that the secret ingredient (like the blood of valyria to dragons/blood magic/valyrian spellforging), to Other and frost magic, is First Men blood. It's the basis for Craster incest, like Targaryen incest on the other side of the world. The more incest, the more inbreeding, the more potent the ingredient in the blood becomes without being diluted.

Others could be First Men, altered by magic. Supposedly int he book theyre gorgeous and beautiful -- dont take the show's depiction to heart. Others are NOT zombies. They hae magical weapons and armor that glimmer like a mirror, or the surface of a pool of water. Theyre magical beings -- or at least humans that were transformed or altered by magic.

I was questioning the validity of referencing Fomas given that he thinks the Others were mere men and you went on about incest and magical weapons... I don't get what you are trying to convey??

Indeed. The Andals suppsedly invaded, using iron as weapons against the First Men. As Ygritte says "your kings," she's inadvertantly specifically distancing herself as First Men wielding bronze by segregating iron-wielders as "Your" kings. She doesnt know Jon has First Men blood.

Now we know half the First Men sided with the Andals when they invaded (who introduced a 'leader' concept), and those that didnt side with the Andals fought them and their ways. Then the wall was erected (I still say by Others, and then they lost it to the First Men/Andal Alliance, who THEN recruited Bran The Builder to build the castles and forts on THEIR huge wall of ice). The wall directly divides First Men houses that sided with Andals (and a 'king' concept), with those that refused to kneel and follow Andal ways, (Wildling). Those south of the wall that sided with the Andals became modern day northern houses, Stark, Bolton, any others that harbor First Men blood in the north, while those who distanced themselves remain north of the wall.

First Men blood, grants Stark's the ability of prophetic dream. NOT the name of Stark. Just as the Valyrian in Targaryen blood allows them to "tame" dragons & prophetic dream, NOT their House name, Targaryen. The power is in the blood. And the more incest, the more inbreeding of this, with less dilution.

The group of First Men that branched off though, what gave them Other ability. I still have this nagging feeling the ice gift was given to them, or they found it, somehow. Further, (according to show-only), only The Night's King can give this gift, while other Others appear to only resurrect wights.

Ygritte never used the term iron.

“The gods made the earth for all men t' share. Only when the kings come with their crowns and steel swords, they claimed it was all theirs.”

Steel is used as generalization as that is what she knows of southerners.

[ummester]

There is some text in TWoIaF that suggests Others are an ancient type of First men - perhaps Zero men, if there were men before the first men.

The details are impossible to decipher, as the details of anything that occurred so long ago would be. We still have no conclusive way of telling how the Egyptians built the pyramids and look at how precise our units of measurement and record keeping are/is compared to the people of Westeros.

Every culture's understanding of another culture is only from a limited perspective. I think Old Nan's perspective is very limited in this sense also.

What is important is the definite suggestion that the wildlings, Others, first men and Stark blood are connected. What is north of the wall is more ancient, natural and pure than everything south of it and the waves of humans from the Essos are the unnatural invaders in ASoIaF.

Given this, whether the wildlings were actually in Westeros before the First Men or whether they are just a subset of the First men becomes immaterial - the wildlings are more connected to the Old Ways and natural history of Westeros than any other human group in the tale.

[Crowfood's Daughter]

The Maesters know that the First men were called that for a reason. It is inscribed in runes on stone as were the CTOF and Giants. The Seastone Chair and the base of the hightower are anomalies that drive the theory that folks were there before the first men, but that is it. No civilizations, writing or anything else

Dorian,

This Maester is speaking very specific and matter of factly

"Yet mysteries remain. The stony island where the Hightower stands is known as Battle Isle even in our oldest records, but why? What battle was fought there? When? Between which lords, which kings, which races ? Even the singers are largely silent on these matters.they mayhaps descend from the seafarers and traders who had settled at the top of Whispering Sound in earlier epochs, the men who came before the First Men? We cannot know."

And, we also have odd the tales of Garth Greenhand

"that he preceded the arrival of the First Men by thousands of years, making him not only the First Man in Westeros, but the only man, wandering the length and breadth of the land alone and treating with the giants and the children of the forest. Some even say he was a god. There is disagreement even on his name. Garth Greenhand, we call him, but in the oldest tales he is named Garth Greenhair, or simply Garth the Green."

[Ramsay's Penguins]

The only problem with wildlings being First men is wouldn't they be smart enough to move onto the other side of the giant wall? Like it tools ages to construct, so to say they didn't notice is kinda weird.

Maybe they wanted to be on that side, but are regretting it now.

[ummester]

You know the Zero men, or men before the First men, that built the Seastone chair and that kind of stuff could just be like Nephilim, right? And the Others are just ASoIaF's version of Nephilim.

There were god like people is Westeros once, along with the giants and children, that were bred or moved out by the constant onslaught of less god like people from Essos.