finger Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 ...the KG are greenseers now? They can look into the future and see what Ned WOULD do? Because, you know, if they couldn't see into the future, all they would have to go on is the fact that Ned and his best friend Robert just deposed the Targaryans and killed most of the family. But again, I'm sure they should have just trusted Ned to not kill the infant Targaryan King. Of course it's fact that Ned saved and raised Jon! The hell? I've never once said he didn't. But what is NOT FACT is that the KG knew Ned would do this. We're getting lost. KG's behaviour makes sense if Aegon is their king, not Jon. Of course they couldn't trust Aegon to Ned, and they didn't. But they could and should expect that Ned would take care of his nephew, because kinslaying is cursed,... and for the sake of Lyanna. And he was not their king. Jon was a mean to keep Ned busy so that he wouldn't care much about what happened at the ToJ. I dare say Ned took the only action available to an honourable man, and the KG didn't neeed to be greenseers to know it. This said, Aegon was away since some time ago, and the KG made themselves killed chiefly to conceal him. I hope you see the whole picture now. Jon was secondary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moondancer Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 If Jon were at Starfall, at least one KG would have been with him.Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 KG's behaviour makes sense if Aegon is their king, not Jon. Of course they couldn't trust Aegon to Ned, and they didn't. But they could and should expect that Ned would take care of his nephew, because kinslaying is cursed,... and for the sake of Lyanna. And he was not their king. Jon was a mean to keep Ned busy so that he wouldn't care much about what happened at the ToJ. I dare say Ned took the only action available to an honourable man, and the KG didn't neeed to be greenseers to know it. This said, Aegon was away since some time ago, and the KG made themselves killed chiefly to conceal him. I hope you see the whole picture now. Jon was secondary. Why does their behavior make sense only if Aegon is their King? It makes just has much sense if Jon is their king. Aegon is dead. Jon is Rhaegar's heir. Why? Because the King must always have one KG with him at all times. Big clue that Viserys isn't the Targ heir: he never had a KG with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Can anybody come up with a scenario that keeps the KG at the tower that does not involve 1. The kingsguard making up their own orders and 2 The kingsguard not following Rhaegar's orders Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? Martin: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else." http://web.archive.o...s3/00103009.htm Alternatively can anybody explain how the current version of Shaw's question is different from the 2003 version of Shaw's question. Shaw: Can you explain why the King's Guard chose to stand and fight Ned at the Tower of the Joy instead of protecting the remaining royal family members? or why a poster's answer should be taken before GRRM's answer. Allow me to add 3. Hightower (or Whent) beying loyal to Aerys. OTOH, should Aegon be involved, Martin wouldn't tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Indeed.I'd add that there's a great deal of goner's realism displayed in that situation; 3 men, no matter how able, couldn't hope for anything other than the closure which mirrors their way of life. 4 individuals were waiting for their death there - and the ones with the chance to survive, I believe, were given the opportunity to survive, ie Jon.For this reason, it is my belief that he was at Starfall, in the kingdom most detached from the mew regime, in a castle with the access to ships and open sea. Based on what? I see the only reason for the Kingsguard's actions as being to protect the heir to the throne. They do not divide their forces to protect additional heirs (Viserys). The reference to bloodstained walls when Ned finds Lyanna, suggests that she is indeed at the site of the battle, the tower. That Howland found him there, seems to be another indication. The "they" is a concealed way for the author to convey the presence of others, but if it were somewhere, like Starfall, why not name them? The only way to muddy the scene; if it is at the tower, where only Ned and Howland survived, is to not name additional persons. There are reasons for Ned to continue on to Starfall. He can return Dawn to its rightful owners. He can escort any thralls back home. He can arrange sea passage for Howland, to Grey Water Watch; or nearby. ;) There is only one reason for the battle to take place at the tower, Ned must enter, and the Kingsguard must deny his entry. There is only one way to get to the juxtaposition, Lyanna and Jon are inside, and Jon is legal heir to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 If Jon were at Starfall, at least one KG would have been with him. Unless they were protecting him by not drawing attention to him by their presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Her children are still very important to Rhaegar. It's not as if he is completely dumping her for Lyanna (if he is doing this to fulfill the prophecy with three heads). He thinks that Aegon is the prince that was promised from what we know...he just thinks that a third child is needed, and she can't give him one. I'm sure they could have tried, but it would have ended in her death.If I had to give my opinion, I don't think Elia was ignorant of Rhaegar's intentions. But that's only my opinion based on the vision, where he says a third head is needed. I hope we will get the whole story at some point, to at least illuminate the situation. Did you ask for a reason to evacuate Aegon? I guess Aerys and Elia would agree, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 We're getting lost. KG's behaviour makes sense if Aegon is their king, not Jon. It also makes sense if Aegon is dead, as Ned remembers, and Jon is their king. Doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Gwynhyfvar Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 To quote the short passage: AGoT 04 Eddard I Thinking, like you say it, is required. Making sense of it, it is not so hard to figure it out. Holding tight to Eddards fingers, to her hold on life - in her other hand she was holding on to - the laurel/garland/crown (as it is named in all the other Eddard chapters). It is deduced, as it has not been written there more explicitly, but no working alternative has cropped up yet. Symbolism of course is not finished yet, holding on the crown means clinging on to the life of her child... Jon. And as the blue roses symbolise Jon, there is a strong probability that the "dead and black" petals hold some foreshadowing for that life ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Why does their behavior make sense only if Aegon is their King? It makes just has much sense if Jon is their king. Aegon is dead. Jon is Rhaegar's heir. Because the King must always have one KG with him at all times. Big clue that Viserys isn't the Targ heir: he never had a KG with him. Again? We've argued this before, and I wouldn't repeated. They didn't treat Jon's relatives as if they were the king's relatives. When you're running away in disguise you've better don't take a KG with you, or wear a crown, you know, that kind of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Martell Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Well, obviously, my attempt to under ail this thread has fail..... oh well. Let's try.... Lyanna and Ser Arthur Dayne were totally doing it behind Rhaegar's back and HE'S Jon's father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Unless they were protecting him by not drawing attention to him by their presence. Remind me, wasn't Starfall a loyalist camp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 Again? We've argued this before, and I wouldn't repeated. They didn't treat Jon's relatives as if they were the king's relatives. When you're running away in disguise you've better don't take a KG with you, or wear a crown, you know, that kind of things. The King's relatives were fighting for the other side. Of course they aren't going to treat Ned like Jon's family! For all they know, Ned's going to take Jon straight to Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Remind me, wasn't Starfall a loyalist camp? Yes it was, but hardly safe from information leaks. If one of the three famous KG turned up there, with a baby, how long before the information reached wrong ears? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 It also makes sense if Aegon is dead, as Ned remembers, and Jon is their king. Doesn't it? That's it! Ned never found out that Aegon was alive, the KG made themselves killed to conceal it. If Jon was king, I don't understand what the KG did, nor even why they were there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted August 31, 2014 Author Share Posted August 31, 2014 If Jon was king, I don't understand what the KG did, nor even why they were there. What? They are there because Jon is King after the death of Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon and they are...wait for it...Kingsguard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 We're getting lost. No, we're not. You're the one who insisted that it made no sense for the KG to fight Ned because Ned took care of Jon. I pointed out that they had no way of knowing what Ned would do with Jon because they can't see into the future. You're trying to deflect attention away from the fact that I just pointed out the flaw in your logic. KG's behaviour makes sense if Aegon is their king, not Jon. How? I don't see how their behavior would change no matter WHICH king is hiding up in the ToJ. Of course they couldn't trust Aegon to Ned, and they didn't. They can't trust ANY Targaryan to the man who just helped depose and destroy the Targaryan dynasty. I'm not getting what's so difficult to understand about this for you. It's like you can't separate what Ned did AFTERWARDS from what he did BEFORE. The KG can only go on what Ned did BEFORE and not AFTERWARDS because they obviously weren't there for the AFTERWARDS part. But they could and should expect that Ned would take care of his nephew, because kinslaying is cursed,... and for the sake of Lyanna. And he was not their king. Why should they expect it? That's the part I'm not getting. They are the KG, not priests. They don't make morality judgments. They have ONE job to do- protect the king. They do it. They don't make judgment calls on who may or may not hurt said king. They won't even take the chance. Jon was a mean to keep Ned busy so that he wouldn't care much about what happened at the ToJ. This makes no sense whatsoever. Was Aegon hiding 'somewhere' in the tower where Ned couldn't find him when he pulled that tower down and used the rubble to bury the dead? I dare say Ned took the only action available to an honourable man, and the KG didn't neeed to be greenseers to know it. Ned's honor doesn't come into it. They did their job. Their job isn't to hand their king over to an uncle who may very well hand that child over to the new King and wash his hands of him. Ned wouldn't have to kill Jon...Robert could have his men do it and Ned would have nothing to do with it. In any case, I would have thought reading ASoIaF would have dispelled you of notions about honor and duty by now. This said, Aegon was away since some time ago, and the KG made themselves killed chiefly to conceal him. I hope you see the whole picture now. Jon was secondary. Conceal him where? The KG would not have left Aegon...there would have been at least one KG with Aegon had he lived and they had knowledge of it because that's their duty. This makes no sense at all. In any case, the only 'Aegon' we have at this point had a completely different thing supposedly happen to him, what with Varys switching him with another child and smuggling him out before the sack. Are you saying that there's another Aegon out there somewhere? Because that's just ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stateofdissipation Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 Saying otherwise is nonsense. Saying that honoring their vows to protect and defend the king, dying for him if need be is the act of a moron is somewhat foolish. As I mentioned before it is a point of honor, and anyone who lacks honor cannot see it for what it is. He remembered Jamie Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling in the grass in front of the king's pavilion making his vows to protect and defend king Aerys.--aGoT page 607 The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat..--aDwD 857-858 “When King's Landing fell Ser Jamie, slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.” “Far away,” Ser Gerold said ---aGoT page 410 Gerold did add “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.” Interestingly enough Aerys remained dead and Jamie has yet to burn in seven hells. Aegon also did not sprout a new head. He (Bran) had asked if the kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. "No longer," he (Ned) answered,"but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world."---aCoK page 332 Let's check what Jamie had to say about losing a couple of kings... Jamie turned to Meryn Trant. "Ser you have been remiss in teaching our new brothers their duties." "What duties," said Meryn Trant defensively. "Keeping the king alive. How many monarchs have you lost since I left the city? Two, is it!" aSoS BG page 274 Ned basically said the same thing to the 3 kingsguard at the tower. Your prince lost a battle Your king lost King's Landing and you lost your king... and his heir... Your allies have surrendered... Your royal family has fled. Great Job... you three are a marvel, a shining example to the world.... if incompetence is marvelous, and the world needed an example of FAIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
finger Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 The King's relatives were fighting for the other side. Of course they aren't going to treat Ned like Jon's family! For all they know, Ned's going to take Jon straight to Robert. Not only Ned, I mean the QUEEN REGENT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted August 31, 2014 Share Posted August 31, 2014 That's it! Ned never found out that Aegon was alive, the KG made themselves killed to conceal it. If Jon was king, I don't understand what the KG did, nor even why they were there. First, the Kingsguard nearly won, so they weren't killing themselves. And, Ned remembers them as being paragons of honor, which can only be explained if he understands their motive and honor. Therefore, there can be no mystery to Ned why the Kingsguard chose to fight, over surrendering or being allowed passage to Dragonstone. They can only be living up to their vow, as they clearly state, to protect and defend the king, dying for him if need be. Second, I think that you are having some type of perception issue. I don't think that I am qualified to help you with that type of issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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