I think Jaime will give up on his redemption dreams

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I agree. Problem with the definition of redemption is that it's assumed that it means you're going to fairly pay those you wronged, which isn't necessarily true. For instance, a man who kills another man, it's completely unable to find redemption because he can' bring back his victim to life? Does the family of the victim needs to kill someone he loves to be even? While forgiveness is important, isn't exclusive to the path of redemption. Just because you wish dead the person that wrong you, doesn't mean this person can't change and improve.

To me, the route to redemption starts when you find yourself and realise what you should have been or done. Which is what Jaime is doing. So far, he hasn't completely accepted how big are the consequences of his actions because he hasn't yet face them (he kinda did when he was prisoner of Robb, but he was drunk and still, arrogant), and it's only starting to resent how it has affected HIM personally (like admitting he could have wanted to be closer to his children).

The one thing Jaime has on his favour is that he's not Tywin, in the sense of him not actually looking for excuses. He's more "in your face" kinda guy and he does admits his mistakes, even if he tells he doesn't care. There is a big chance of him meeting LS and he will have to admit that his relationship with Cersei, and pushing Brandon was what set in motion the events of the war and the doom of the Starks.

I just wanted to tell you, I love the wording on the bolded sentence. PERFECT!!

Also, Jaime did admit to Cat that he pushed Bran out of the window. Granted, he didn't get into all the reasons, just snarked he seldom does that to improve one's health (paraphrasing and wondering, I'm not confusing that dialogue from show and book, am I?) I do think LS will be a different audience than ONLY CAT proved to be. I'm not certain on a meeting, though, with him and LS. I'm highly suspicious of what Brienne is really doing or planning, what we may have missed off page already between Brienne's appearances. I guess it depends on whether LS is at her mid or end game in the story. There seems so many wildcards.

The one thing I'd be interested in.......is Jaime's reaction to learning Bran is alive. I fanwank he doesn't give him much thought because he thinks he is dead, there isn't Bran's continuing fate for Jaime to ponder, not to his own knowledge anyway. Interestingly, I want LS to learn of Bran's existance for her own peace, but I would want Jaime to learn of it so I can finally know for sure.......his remorse. I think he doesn't dwell on the situation because he thinks it's pointless to do so with Bran supposedly dead.

[ChillyPolly]

Well, seems you are doing pretty good at having our conversation all by yourself anyway. I never even mentioned Lancel's wife (that wife who seems to want him to stay, by the way, whether she fucks someone else or not), you seem to be adding your own created character The Devil and giving him dialogue, too.

I thought it was clear we were discussing Rh'llor. Does the idea of "the Devil" as a metaphorical representation of the idea of evil, not compute to you? I also doubt that GRRM literally believes in "the Devil", but he denies that he is a moral nihilist, and Rh'llor, as described, is a pretty demonic entity. Not to mention, fictional.

Being against religious extremism of any kind (even fictional) doesn't necessarily equate to anti-religious ideology.

But what has Lancel done that you are against? Fasting? Is that too "extreme" for you? Praying? Is that too "extreme" for you? Letting common folk eat sausages? Is that too "extreme" for you? It certainly seemed an issue for Jaime, as he came from his lordly meal that he had no objection to at all. Is repenting ones sins too extreme for you? It certainly seemed too extreme for Jaime. What sorts of religious activities are NOT too "extreme" for you?

And where do you get the idea that Lancel's wife wants him to stay. I admit she does not seem particularly eager to get rid of him. But since he obviously has no intention of raping her, and has every intention of setting her free, she has no reason to fear or hate him either. But even Jaime agrees she wants the other guy.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I just wanted to tell you, I love the wording on the bolded sentence. PERFECT!!

:D :D

Also, Jaime did admit to Cat that he pushed Bran out of the window. Granted, he didn't get into all the reasons, just snarked he seldom does that to improve one's health (paraphrasing and wondering, I'm not confusing that dialogue from show and book, am I?)

In book is the same, I think. But, that "confession" wasn't actually that as much as a way to infuriate Cat. He knew that they wouldn't kill him, they needed him, he had the upper hand (heh). Is like the Mountain confessing his crime to Oberyn before he killed him, he knew it didn't matter. That's why neither of them needed to repent or even fake it. And that's why later, he was still arrogant until the moment he lost his hand, he KNEW nothing would happen to him. Once he realised he's not as invulnerable as he thought he was, he had to THINK before he talk, and thinking leads you to introspection.

I do think LS will be a different audience than ONLY CAT proved to be. I'm not certain on a meeting, though, with him and LS. I'm highly suspicious of what Brienne is really doing or planning, what we may have missed off page already between Brienne's appearances. I guess it depends on whether LS is at her mid or end game in the story. There seems so many wildcards.

LS is supposed to go to the RW2.0, isn't she? I dunno when she's going to meet Jaime. I guess there is going to be a lot of time before she and Jaime meet again, and that's not going to happen any sooner. Maybe Jaime hears about the massacre and realises "something" is wrong. Brienne, being the poker face lady she is, is going to babble and Jaime will be stupid enough to go and try to confront Stoneheart about killing his family.

"My cousin has done nothing to wrong you"

"Neither my son"

The one thing I'd be interested in.......is Jaime's reaction to learning Bran is alive. I fanwank he doesn't give him much thought because he thinks he is dead, there isn't Bran's continuing fate for Jaime to ponder, not to his own knowledge anyway. Interestingly, I want LS to learn of Bran's existance for her own peace, but I would want Jaime to learn of it so I can finally know for sure.......his remorse. I think he doesn't dwell on the situation because he thinks it's pointless to do so with Bran supposedly dead.

Well, Jaime hasn't either faced with the idea of Bran dying. I mean, he has admitted he's ashamed of that, but as the kid is dead, he doesn't have to live with the idea that he ruined his life, nor actually think about what it meant what he did. I hope Bran and Jaime meet.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

:D :D

In book is the same, I think. But, that "confession" wasn't actually that as much as a way to infuriate Cat. He knew that they wouldn't kill him, they needed him, he had the upper hand (heh). Is like the Mountain confessing his crime to Oberyn before he killed him, he knew it didn't matter. That's why neither of them needed to repent or even fake it. And that's why later, he was still arrogant until the moment he lost his hand, he KNEW nothing would happen to him. Once he realised he's not as invulnerable as he thought he was, he had to THINK before he talk, and thinking leads you to introspection.

LS is supposed to go to the RW2.0, isn't she? I dunno when she's going to meet Jaime. I guess there is going to be a lot of time before she and Jaime meet again, and that's not going to happen any sooner. Maybe Jaime hears about the massacre and realises "something" is wrong. Brienne, being the poker face lady she is, is going to babble and Jaime will be stupid enough to go and try to confront Stoneheart about killing his family.

"My cousin has done nothing to wrong you"

"Neither my son"

Well, Jaime hasn't either faced with the idea of Bran dying. I mean, he has admitted he's ashamed of that, but as the kid is dead, he doesn't have to live with the idea that he ruined his life, nor actually think about what it meant what he did. I hope Bran and Jaime meet.

I appreciate your intricate answer and want to give you one in return, but a girl has................run herself out of time, not to mention......has plum worn herself out on the semi long and half sensible type of posting. I did want to say that I think Jaime's answers to Cat were about two things, his desperation to know how Cersei and Tyrion and his family in general were doing (as he said, his guards didn't even keep the lies straight or tell the same ones day to day) without giving too much away himself, but secondly, it's just also all about Jaime's turn of phrase. He just wasn't editing his smart mouth as well as he does later in the series.

As to the bolded..........what?!?!? and LOL Is the Red Wedding Part Duex confirmed? I know it seems very likely, but I'd laugh if it's one of the things that GRRM has ruled out, just because he can. Is Lady Stoneheart The Head Wedding Planner or just a crasher? I wish we'd get TWOW soon.......this Jaime, Brienne, and LS business is one of the story lines that has left me waiting with baited breath.

LOL.........maybe LS and Jaime can make peace.......over a Wedding Dance.

[Trogdor Targaryen]

I don't believe that Jaime is seeking redemption for his past, but trying to make the rest of his life honorable. I think that he had become soured on the idea of honor during his time as part of Aerys' kingsguard, and held that skepticism until he saw Brienne hold onto what he considered to be such a naive ideal. Brienne became his beacon of hope, and his choices to remain true to his oaths seems to be based on his perception of her as holding onto that honor. He has so much faith in her that he gives her the sword that his father gave to him in the same conversation he disowned him. As a knight of the KG, he has nothing but his sword and his honor, especially since he has sacrificed his relationships both his father and sister in favor his honor, and his oath prevents him from holding lands or having a family. Even if that sword wasn't the only thing he truly had,is already incredibly valuable, being a valyrian steel sword with a golden Jewel encrusted hilt. He had so much faith in Brienne that he gave her his sword, the only material he owns, to invest in her honor.

If Brienne tries to kill him as it appears she will, he will personally feel betrayed. If he survives, I think he will blame the Starks and embark upon a quest for revenge against the only Stark he knows to be alive, Jon Snow at Castle Black(this depends on him either not encountering LS personally, or him not knowing that Catelyn was so staunchly opposed to Jon Snow's existence, or even learning of Robbs will.) Ultimately he ends up at the wall hoping to kill the LC, however, not having had any access to ravens or messages during his mission, he never learned that the previous lord commanders, one of whom he had been chasing, are no longer alive, due to all the crazy shit goin on up there. Fortunately the new lord commander is someone else he knows, and has an equally avid and much more valid vendetta against, his valonquar Tyrion.

[The Time Traveling Tree]

Jaime isn't pursuing redemption but trying to find himself. The key is mentioning how he wanted to be Arthur Dayne but got lost on the way, and how he wants to actually go back to that path. He hasn't yet fully accepted the consequences of his actions until the point of realising that many of what has happened is his fault, he only sees he shouldn't have because it's wrong, not because the chain effect that it is.

well said. Jaime knows he's done wrong, but he has yet to grasp that not only what he did was wrong, but that he kickstarted some terrible things.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

Never, we all wants to be forgiven .

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Jaime's arc is not a redemption arc. It's an identity arc. Will he be a Lannister, or a Knight of the Kingsguard?

[The Wolves]

He should because be can never be redeemed.