I think Jaime will give up on his redemption dreams

[larastone]

It's just a feeling that I have. And no I don't think that Jaime will go back to being the asshole he was in AGOT just that he'll stop focusing on redemption so much. I don't know why but I have a feeling thats the place where his character is going after the Stoneheart encounter.

Anyone else have a similar feeling?

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

It's just a feeling that I have. And no I don't think that Jaime will go back to being the asshole he was in AGOT just that he'll stop focusing on redemption so much. I don't know why but I have a feeling thats the place where his character is going after the Stoneheart encounter.

Anyone else have a similar feeling?

I do,he wants to redeem himself to the people he has betrayed and wronged.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Jaime isn't pursuing redemption but trying to find himself. The key is mentioning how he wanted to be Arthur Dayne but got lost on the way, and how he wants to actually go back to that path. He hasn't yet fully accepted the consequences of his actions until the point of realising that many of what has happened is his fault, he only sees he shouldn't have because it's wrong, not because the chain effect that it is.

[larastone]

Jaime isn't pursuing redemption but trying to find himself. The key is mentioning how he wanted to be Arthur Dayne but got lost on the way, and how he wants to actually go back to that path. He hasn't yet fully accepted the consequences of his actions until the point of realising that many of what has happened is his fault, he only sees he shouldn't have because it's wrong, not because the chain effect that it is.

Personally, I do think he's trying to redeem himself but I just have a feeling that at a certain point he'll realize that sometimes forgiveness just isn't possible. And I think he'll realize that through his encounter with Stoneheart.

agreed that Jaime's arc is about identity just as much as it's about redemption, adding onto that I also think that Jaime can never fully escape his identity of being a Lannister (such as being Cersei's brotherlover, and Tywin being his father)

[Dofs]

Personally, I do think he's trying to redeem himself but I just have a feeling that at a certain point he'll realize that sometimes forgiveness just isn't possible. And I think he'll realize that through his encounter with Stoneheart.

agreed that Jaime's arc is about identity just as much as it's about redemption, adding onto that I also think that Jaime can never fully escape his identity of being a Lannister (such as being Cersei's brotherlover, and Tywin being his father)

Jaime has a redemption arc for the readers, he himself doesn't really seek it in my opinion. It's all about identity, finding his way of life. I don't remember when he actively seeked someones forgiveness. On the contrary, in his last acts he was using his bad reputation to his advantage. I don't also think Jaime is trying to escape his identity as a Lannister at all.

[dbunting]

I don't see Jaime seeking redemption. I see him as more trying to see who he is and who he wants to be. His reading in the KG book seemed very important to him, that basically there was nothing about him in it. He is realizing that he has spent his life basically chasing Cersei. I think he just wants to set his own course.

[Anath]

With Jaime once trying to be Arthur Dayne and Arthur Dayne being more questionable than Ned's praise, Jaime might not end up a more perfect knight than Arthur was.

This said, I agree that Jaime isn't trying to redeem himself. Actions are what we are, so if his way of acting and the reasoning behind them change for good, that's redeemed enough for me.

But how can he redeem himself for throwing a kid through a window because, well, thinking is hard, so he went with the first thing crossing his mind? For taking part in laying the grounds for the war by passing his bastards as the king's own heirs?

Unless GRRM redeems him somehow in the war with the Others. But I don't see him doing this. As he said, he writes about human hearts. Being a hero in a glorious war when you're the goddamned Warrior reborn and think of yourself as born to fight isn't much of a redemption. And as I said, on a purely human basis I think Jaime is beyond redemption. By the way, I am not saying this as a Jaime hater. I am saying this as a diehard Jaime fan.

[ChillyPolly]

It's just a feeling that I have. And no I don't think that Jaime will go back to being the asshole he was in AGOT just that he'll stop focusing on redemption so much. I don't know why but I have a feeling thats the place where his character is going after the Stoneheart encounter.

Anyone else have a similar feeling?

First off, there is not going to be a Stoneheart encounter; or at least no good reason to believe there will be one. When Brienne screamed "sword" it did NOT signify "Take the Sword and Bring the Kingslayer to Me". That is a fan invention.

But no, he will not "give up" on his dreams of being some grand savior. However, they will turn into something twisted and evil.

To quote Galadriel, is it going to be "all shall love me and despair" or "I shall diminish and remain Galadriel"? We know what choice Jaime would have made in Galadriel's place. He MUST be the grand savior. And if the Seven will not grant him a new hand, he will take what the demon god Rh'llor has to offer him.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Personally, I do think he's trying to redeem himself but I just have a feeling that at a certain point he'll realize that sometimes forgiveness just isn't possible. And I think he'll realize that through his encounter with Stoneheart.

agreed that Jaime's arc is about identity just as much as it's about redemption, adding onto that I also think that Jaime can never fully escape his identity of being a Lannister (such as being Cersei's brotherlover, and Tywin being his father)

I don't think Jaime is looking for forgiveness necessarily, he's more so looking to be a person that he himself can live with being. I think deep down he has hopes that his new path might effect how he is perceived, but I do think it's more about him feeling that he could look himself in the mirror (or look his own version of Ser Arthur Dayne in the eye) and be content with his choices.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

First off, there is not going to be a Stoneheart encounter; or at least no good reason to believe there will be one. When Brienne screamed "sword" it did NOT signify "Take the Sword and Bring the Kingslayer to Me". That is a fan invention.

But no, he will not "give up" on his dreams of being some grand savior. However, they will turn into something twisted and evil.

To quote Galadriel, is it going to be "all shall love me and despair" or "I shall diminish and remain Galadriel"? We know what choice Jaime would have made in Galadriel's place. He MUST be the grand savior. And if the Seven will not grant him a new hand, he will take what the demon god Rh'llor has to offer him.

Oddily enough, the bolded statement reminds me of a thread that was here some months ago.........positing whether Jaime would even accept a new hand from Qyburn, a la Qyburn's rebuildiing Gregor into Robert Strong. Considering Jaime is the one who tried to warn Cersei against Qyburn, there were some of us on that thread that felt that Jaime would not accept a new hand under such circumstances. I'm one who thinks along those lines, and that just leads me to the bolded in your post.......I don't think Jaime would want a hand from someone or something he considered demonic, be it Red Rahloo or any other questionable force. I'm not sure where this idea that Jaime would want a new, working, human hand under such circumstances comes from.

As to your thoughts on Brienne and the meaning behind all that she is doing now.....I agree, I don't think she is just willingly leading Jaime to slaughter. There are many possibilities for the three of them going forward, Jaime, Brienne, and Lady Stoneheart, I can't say as I feel certain one way or the other about who will meet again and how it will all turn out. I do think Jaime and Brienne will survive past the LS situation. LS could also continue, although I think Brienne could be a strong candidate for putting LS out of her misery and to rest.

[ChillyPolly]

I'm one who thinks along those lines, and that just leads me to the bolded in your post.......I don't think Jaime would want a hand from someone or something he considered demonic, be it Red Rahloo or any other questionable force. I'm not sure where this idea that Jaime would want a new, working, human hand under such circumstances comes from.

Here are a few inspirations for this idea:

(1) The Valonquar prophesy: The Valonquar will strangle Cersei with his hands (plural).

(2) Jaime's phantom hand (his killing hand) twitches every time he wants to kill someone.

(3) Lancel invites Jaime to repent. Jaime contemptuously asks if the Seven will give him a new hand. Lancel says no. Jaime does not repent.

(4) Jaime's arm has already been healed by Qyburn, who initially told him he would lose the whole arm, until Jaime made clear his determination to keep the arm at any cost. Is there a sinister price, as was hinted might be the case when Moqorro healed Victarion?

(5) The sinister Azor Ahai legend, with its glorification of human sacrifice, may be associated both with the Red God, and with Jaime's savior fantasies.

(6) A working golden hand would be perfect for holding a red-hot flaming sword.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Here are a few inspirations for this idea:

(1) The Valonquar prophesy: The Valonquar will strangle Cersei with his hands (plural).

(2) Jaime's phantom hand (his killing hand) twitches every time he wants to kill someone.

(3) Lancel invites Jaime to repent. Jaime contemptuously asks if the Seven will give him a new hand. Lancel says no. Jaime does not repent.

(4) Jaime's arm has already been healed by Qyburn, who initially told him he would lose the whole arm, until Jaime made clear his determination to keep the arm at any cost. Is there a sinister price, as was hinted might be the case when Moqorro healed Victarion?

(5) The sinister Azor Ahai legend, with its glorification of human sacrifice, can be connected both with the Red God, and with Jaime's savior fantasies.

(6) A working golden hand would be perfect for holding a red-hot flaming sword.

None of these speak of Jaime's willingness to pay a demonic price for a hand, that is my issue with such an idea. Also, the help that Jaime accepted from Qyburn was basic medical care, not his necromantic skills. Spending time in Qyburn's care and travelling with him from Harrenhal to KL is what made Jaime aware of Qyburn's questionable practices. That and riding with The Bloody Mummers anyway are the reasons Jaime tried to warn Cersei against becoming overly involved with Qyburn. I'm not seeing anything in Jaime that suggests he would be willing to acquire a hand by nefarious means, not by his own choice, anyway. I think Jaime with his wildfire issues...........would look on The Red God quite negatively, especially from a Melisandre type character.

I'm still not certain on the valonquar, or the hands in the prophecy, for that matter. I go back and forth on that, the who, and the hands.

ETA: The conversation Jaime has with Lancel is about Jaime's concerns for Lancel's zealousness, IMO. It's not about Jaime stating his own beliefs and what he would and wouldn't do or accept for a hand, it's Jaime trying to tell Lancel to snap out of it. Jaime was so struck by Lancel's zeal that.........he couldn't even hit him, much less kill him, LOL, after all of Jaime's jealousy. He sees Lancel as a mess.

[larastone]

GRRM has pretty much straight up said that Jaime has a redemption arc though, what I'm trying to say is that unlike other people I don't think his redemption arc is just going to that neat. I think he'll fuck up in one way or another.

[ChillyPolly]

None of these speak of Jaime's willingness to pay a demonic price for a hand, that is my issue with such an idea.

Nobody who makes a deal with the Devil ever wants to pay the price. They merely seek the reward. And the Devil is a liar. And as Bob Dylan sang, "Ya gotta serve somebody" whether you want to or not. If not the Seven, then who else?

Also, the help that Jaime accepted from Qyburn was basic medical care, not his necromantic skills.

So you assume. But Qyburn initially told him he would lose half the arm at least, and maybe the whole arm, presumably by the application of basic medical care. Was Qyburn wrong? Why did the impossible suddenly become possible, just because Qyburn was threatened with his life and told to succeed at any cost? It is not hard to guess this had something to do with Qyburn's necromantic skills. We had no way of suspecting this at the time, of course, because we did not know Qyburn HAD necromantic skills. We thought maybe Jaime just took a huge gamble with his life and got extremely lucky. But now we know Qyburn does have paranormal abilities. How can we not suspect a connection?

The conversation Jaime has with Lancel is about Jaime's concerns for Lancel's zealousness, IMO. It's not about Jaime stating his own beliefs and what he would and wouldn't do or accept for a hand, it's Jaime trying to tell Lancel to snap out of it.

Snap out of what? What is wrong with setting your war-plunder-bride free to marry who she wishes? What is wrong with treating common folk as equals, addressing them as friend, and letting them eat an occasional sausage? What is wrong with wanting to actually BE good, instead of merely LOOKING good, as part of a cynical public relations strategy?

Perhaps I should let this go, because it always boils downs to anti-religious ideology.

he couldn't even hit him, much less kill him, LOL, after all of Jaime's jealousy.

His phantom HAND wanted to kill Lancel. But he does not have his new hand ... YET. And Lancel dreamed that Jaime would indeed come to kill him. It may yet happen.

[larastone]

yeah I think jaime getting a fucked up hand from qyburn would be too cheesy, campy and cheapen his arc

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Nobody who makes a deal with the Devil ever wants to pay the price. They merely seek the reward. And the Devil is a liar. And as Bob Dylan sang, "Ya gotta serve somebody" whether you want to or not. If not the Seven, then who else?

So you assume. But Qyburn initially told him he would lose half the arm at least, and maybe the whole arm, presumably by the application of basic medical care. Was Qyburn wrong? Why did the impossible suddenly become possible, just because Qyburn was threatened with his life and told to succeed at any cost? It is not hard to guess this had something to do with Qyburn's necromantic skills. We had no way of suspecting this at the time, of course, because we did not know Qyburn HAD necromantic skills. We thought maybe Jaime just took a huge gamble with his life and got extremely lucky. But now we know Qyburn does have paranormal abilities. How can we not suspect a connection?

Snap out of what? What is wrong with setting your war-plunder-bride free to marry who she wishes? What is wrong with treating common folk as equals, addressing them as friend, and letting them eat an occasional sausage? What is wrong with wanting to actually BE good, instead of merely LOOKING good, as part of a cynical public relations strategy?

Perhaps I should let this go, because it always boils downs to anti-religious ideology.

His phantom HAND wanted to kill Lancel. But he does not have his new hand ... YET. And Lancel dreamed that Jaime would indeed come to kill him. It may yet happen.

Well, seems you are doing pretty good at having our conversation all by yourself anyway. I never even mentioned Lancel's wife (that wife who seems to want him to stay, by the way, whether she fucks someone else or not), you seem to be adding your own created character The Devil and giving him dialogue, too. Being against religious extremism of any kind (even fictional) doesn't necessarily equate to anti-religious ideology.

You should let it go, I can assure you that I am, as I have to admit, I'm not even sure what the point is of half of your content both in general and to me, specifically, not to mention, tone.

One point in general, still feeling something in place of a lost limb, body part, is quite common, hence the term......phantom pain.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

GRRM has pretty much straight up said that Jaime has a redemption arc though, what I'm trying to say is that unlike other people I don't think his redemption arc is just going to that neat. I think he'll fuck up in one way or another.

Oh, I do think there is a chance he could stumble a bit, and he himself would quite humorously admit it and describe it, at least in his own thoughts. I'm just hoping he doesn't catastrophically crash.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't think Jaime is looking for forgiveness necessarily, he's more so looking to be a person that he himself can live with being. I think deep down he has hopes that his new path might effect how he is perceived, but I do think it's more about him feeling that he could look himself in the mirror (or look his own version of Ser Arthur Dayne in the eye) and be content with his choices.

I agree. Problem with the definition of redemption is that it's assumed that it means you're going to fairly pay those you wronged, which isn't necessarily true. For instance, a man who kills another man, it's completely unable to find redemption because he can' bring back his victim to life? Does the family of the victim needs to kill someone he loves to be even? While forgiveness is important, isn't exclusive to the path of redemption. Just because you wish dead the person that wrong you, doesn't mean this person can't change and improve.

To me, the route to redemption starts when you find yourself and realise what you should have been or done. Which is what Jaime is doing. So far, he hasn't completely accepted how big are the consequences of his actions because he hasn't yet face them (he kinda did when he was prisoner of Robb, but he was drunk and still, arrogant), and it's only starting to resent how it has affected HIM personally (like admitting he could have wanted to be closer to his children).

The one thing Jaime has on his favour is that he's not Tywin, in the sense of him not actually looking for excuses. He's more "in your face" kinda guy and he does admits his mistakes, even if he tells he doesn't care. There is a big chance of him meeting LS and he will have to admit that his relationship with Cersei, and pushing Brandon was what set in motion the events of the war and the doom of the Starks.

[RuthBolton]

I don't think Jaime is looking for forgiveness necessarily, he's more so looking to be a person that he himself can live with being. I think deep down he has hopes that his new path might effect how he is perceived, but I do think it's more about him feeling that he could look himself in the mirror (or look his own version of Ser Arthur Dayne in the eye) and be content with his choices.

I completely agree with this.

I think he just seeks the values he lost...but he isn't going to wash out the bad, just try to find his way back to where he got lost. He realizes bitterly that his appointment to the Kingsguard by Aerys warped him and I think with that understanding comes a desire to not regain his innocence so much as be the man he meant to be when he was still innocent, to the best of his abilities with all the cynicism and damage of his current self.

[RainGhost]

It's just a feeling that I have. And no I don't think that Jaime will go back to being the asshole he was in AGOT just that he'll stop focusing on redemption so much. I don't know why but I have a feeling thats the place where his character is going after the Stoneheart encounter.

Anyone else have a similar feeling?

After the Stoneheart encounter? What makes you so sure he'l survive that encounter? It would be typical GRRM that just as Jaime is redeeming himself, he gets killed. He genuinely wanted to keep Sansa safe but unless he can find Sansa or Arya and bring them to LS, I think he's doomed.