R+L=J v.104

[Lord Varys]

Hm. But we would then have to assume that Rhaegar stood by and did nothing when Aerys burned Chelsted, and raped and clawed his mother...? We know for sure that Rhaegar took all the remaining KG but Jaime with him when he left for the time, i.e. Darry and Prince Lewyn.

That does not make any sense. First, Rhaegar would have demanded the Handship for himself, I guess, and it would have also been all but impossible that Rhaegar would have not heard about the wildfire plot in such a scenario. One could even expect that Chelsted would have gone to Rhaegar first, and then to Aerys, after he learned the truth about Aerys' plans...

The only other option would be that Darry lingered behind for some unknown reason, and only later joined Rhaegar's party. But Jaime really seems to indicate that after Rhaegar's departure he was the only KG at KL.

[mambru]

She's very clearly dying. I doubt she even knows what's going in.

She was even closer to dying when Ned saw her after the battle, yet she was clear-minded enough to understand her and Jon's complicated circumstances and the conditions required for her son's continuing safety, to exact explicit promises from Ned regarding Jon's upbringing and the secrets to be kept thereof, AND added a postscript regarding her wishes for her burial.

There's also her scream during the battle. Yes, I know, it was the servant's voice calling Ned "Lord Eddard." But in the dream there were NINE other male figures, any of whom could reasonably have been the one to speak with the servant's voice - without transmuting it to female and cutting off the "Lord" to Eddard". Ned's subconscious insisted on changing that voice into female - into Lyanna's voice. Why? I think the most likely explanation is that Lyanna was screaming around that point, and this was such an integral part of that nightmarish battle that his mind turned that male servant's voice into Lyanna's.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if she did scream or not. If they accepted any kind of authority at all from Lyanna, they would have tried to negotiate with Ned before attacking, regardless of whether Lyanna was awake or in a feverish doze. If you are the servant bodyguard of someone important, you do not get free leave to kill her brother if your boss happens to be out of it - not without at least trying to talk him into some alternative. The fact that they did not seems to indicate that Lyanna was their prisoner, not their superior...an indication underlined by that scream.

And come to think of it - isn't it inevitable that Lyanna would be a prisoner in the ToJ by that point, even if she had initially come willingly? Think about it. Hightower comes and presumably brings the news of the murders of Rickard and Brandon over her presumed kidnapping, and the outbreak of the war. Lyanna is undoubtedly devastated by these horrible things that she did not intend but came about at least partly by their actions. She's pregnant, but not more that a few months in. What does "wild" Lyanna do?

I think she would want to go out to the world to get back to her family and try undo whatever she can of the harm that had been done. Granted, it would be useless at that point - the war would go on no matter what anyone had to say about the kidnapping by now. But I don't think she would be resigned to staying at the Tower helplessly watching hideous events come to pass that she had a hand in. Which is why I think it's likely that in addition to telling the ToJ 3 to guard the tower with their lives till Rhaegar's return, Rhaegar also told them, "Don't let her leave."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Lord Varys,

From Jaime's POV we see Darry ready to leave with Rhaegar. They are in the yard, when Rhaegar and Jaime last speak. They definitly left for the Trident together.

Why would Rhaegar demand to become Aerys' Hand? Rhaegar already received the control over the entire army. The wildfire plot was also nothing to worry about for Rhaegar, at that moment, as the wildfire plot was only in case the rebels were victorious on the Trident and would attack KL, and Rhaegar seemed convinced he would be the winner on the Trident.

Could Rhaegar have done anything when Aerys burned Chelsted? Aerys was still king, and the time to argue about such things when there was a war going on. Rhaegar's group of friends in KL might have been significantly less than before the war. Arthur and Oswell were away, JonCon was exiled, Myles Mooton was dead. Who know who the others were who had been on Rhaegar's side before.. They might have died in the fighting, or returned home to gather their men for the Trident.

[sj4iy]

She was even closer to dying when Ned saw her after the battle, yet she was clear-minded enough to understand her and Jon's complicated circumstances and the conditions required for her son's continuing safety, to exact explicit promises from Ned regarding Jon's upbringing and the secrets to be kept thereof, AND added a postscript regarding her wishes for her burial.

There's also her scream during the battle. Yes, I know, it was the servant's voice calling Ned "Lord Eddard." But in the dream there were NINE other male figures, any of whom could reasonably have been the one to speak with the servant's voice - without transmuting it to female and cutting off the "Lord" to Eddard". Ned's subconscious insisted on changing that voice into female - into Lyanna's voice. Why? I think the most likely explanation is that Lyanna was screaming around that point, and this was such an integral part of that nightmarish battle that his mind turned that male servant's voice into Lyanna's.

Anyway, it doesn't matter if she did scream or not. If they accepted any kind of authority at all from Lyanna, they would have tried to negotiate with Ned before attacking, regardless of whether Lyanna was awake or in a feverish doze. If you are the servant bodyguard of someone important, you do not get free leave to kill her brother if your boss happens to be out of it - not without at least trying to talk him into some alternative. The fact that they did not seems to indicate that Lyanna was their prisoner, not their superior...an indication underlined by that scream.

And come to think of it - isn't it inevitable that Lyanna would be a prisoner in the ToJ by that point, even if she had initially come willingly? Think about it. Hightower comes and presumably brings the news of the murders of Rickard and Brandon over her presumed kidnapping, and the outbreak of the war. Lyanna is undoubtedly devastated by these horrible things that she did not intend but came about at least partly by their actions. She's pregnant, but not more that a few months in. What does "wild" Lyanna do?

I think she would want to go out to the world to get back to her family and try undo whatever she can of the harm that had been done. Granted, it would be useless at that point - the war would go on no matter what anyone had to say about the kidnapping by now. But I don't think she would be resigned to staying at the Tower helplessly watching hideous events come to pass that she had a hand in. Which is why I think it's likely that in addition to telling the ToJ 3 to guard the tower with their lives till Rhaegar's return, Rhaegar also told them, "Don't let her leave."

That doesn't mean she can get up out of bed to go see what's going on outside of the Tower. He says that she could barely whisper, she was so weak, so I don't think she's giving any orders.

[MtnLion]

So are you suggesting they also traveled with him to the Trident?

No, he sent them back to the tower to protect that secret when he reached King's Landing and had other Kingsguard available. He took all of the remaining Kingsguard but Jaime with him to the Trident.

[MtnLion]

Hm. But we would then have to assume that Rhaegar stood by and did nothing when Aerys burned Chelsted, and raped and clawed his mother...? We know for sure that Rhaegar took all the remaining KG but Jaime with him when he left for the time, i.e. Darry and Prince Lewyn.

It seems like a good motive for Rhaegar's determination to take action once the war was resolved, doesn't it?

[BearQueen87]

She was even closer to dying when Ned saw her after the battle, yet she was clear-minded enough to understand her and Jon's complicated circumstances and the conditions required for her son's continuing safety, to exact explicit promises from Ned regarding Jon's upbringing and the secrets to be kept thereof, AND added a postscript regarding her wishes for her burial.

I think you're forgetting that there were clearly loyal servants at the ToJ who could also fill Ned in on the details after Lyanna died.

[mambru]

Are you saying that Ned got that whole "promise me" scene secondhand?

[sj4iy]

It seems like a good motive for Rhaegar's determination to take action once the war was resolved, doesn't it?

Well, it's seems very likely that Rhaegar planned on peacefully overthrowing Aerys at the Harrenhal Tourney, but his plans were foiled when Aerys decided to come along after Varys warned him about it.

[sj4iy]

Are you saying that Ned got that whole "promise me" scene secondhand?

No, but the servants there could have told him what had been happening, obviously.

[BearQueen87]

Are you saying that Ned got that whole "promise me" scene secondhand?

Nope. But that Lyanna only told him most of the important bits and the servants filled in the rest. Lyanna does not need to give an exact detailed account; just that Jon is Rhaegar's, they were married an in love. And then "take me home" "promise me"

[Alia of the knife]

On Lyanna,

I do speculate that heavily pregnant or not even, she would have tried to leave to get to her family if Hightower brought that news.

On the other hand, if Hightower spoke to them in private, then I think it's possible that Rhaegar kept it from Lyanna for fears of what the shock would do.

[BearQueen87]

On Lyanna,

I do speculate that heavily pregnant or not even, she would have tried to leave to get to her family if Hightower brought that news.

On the other hand, if Hightower spoke to them in private, then I think it's possible that Rhaegar kept it from Lyanna for fears of what the shock would do.

To your fist scenario, I agree. If Rhaegar told her what was going on, then I wonder if they fought because Lyanna would want to leave but Rhaegar told her no, it's too dangerous. Wait here, I'll be back after the war is done.

To your second scenario, I can see that as well if Lyanna is already showing signs of having a very difficult pregnancy. I'm not sure if puerperal fever manifests in ways before before birth (I don't think so?) but if was clearly struggling with carrying the child, then telling her about the war and her family was quite possibly a very bad idea.

[Lord Varys]

Hm. That would make Rhaegar very erratic and incoherent. As champion of House Targaryen and leader of the loyalist army, he was already Lord Protector of the Realm in all but the name, and if he wanted to depose his father afterwards, doing this as Hand of the King would have been much easier.

Rhaegar could even have threatened not to march against Robert. What the hell could have Aerys against that? I'm pretty sure Rhaegar would have done something of that sort if he had witnessed what his father did to his mother he would have done something.

The idea that Aerys still had powerful courtiers, counselors loyal to him, personally, seems to be a pretty big stretch. Everyone says that the Targaryens lost the Iron Throne at the Trident, because Rhaegar was the warrior, he was the one people was cheering, not mad, cruel, King Scab.

The vibe I get is that all of that occurred while Rhaegar was away - either at the Trident, or in the tower.

Oh, and on Lyanna's death date:

There is no textual evidence confirming (or even hinting at) how long she lived after Ned entered the tower, right? It could have been only a short while, but it could also have been somewhat longer, even a day or so. All we get is the bed of blood image, but it is pretty clear that this is the only memory that Ned shares with us. It is not embedded in temporal series of events, so it would technically be possible that some time passed between the fighting and Lyanna's death. Especially since there is also the whole thing about Howland saving Ned's life - this means that Reed either killed Arthur to save Ned, or that he tended to Ned's own injuries later.

[BearQueen87]

Hm. That would make Rhaegar very erratic and incoherent. As champion of House Targaryen and leader of the loyalist army, he was already Lord Protector of the Realm in all but the name, and if he wanted to depose his father afterwards, doing this as Hand of the King would have been much easier.

But that's not up to Rhaegar. He can't elect himself Hand of the King.

Rhaegar could even have threatened not to march against Robert. What the hell could have Aerys against that? I'm pretty sure Rhaegar would have done something of that sort if he had witnessed what his father did to his mother he would have done something.

To be fair, we don't know what went down in the final conversation between Aerys and Rhaegar. Something tells me that it was not a joyful family reunion.

[Kingmonkey]

I demonstrated that mine is literally in the text. Show me where Ned has any type of thought about what a vow the Kingsguard are referring to when the Lord Commander explains why they stay with, "We swore a vow." It is Ned's dream, demonstrate that it makes sense to the character. The character is dead, so it is a finite search.

No it's not literally in the text.

"A vow means to Ned: to protect (our) king's life with (our) own" is not literally in the text, it is an interpretation of the text.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

“Then or now,” said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

“We swore a vow,” explained old Ser Gerold.

Yours is a good interpretation of the text. Here we have Gerold stating that the Kingsguard do not flee, and then saying that they swore a vow. Solid! However, being a good interpretation of the text does not make it the sole interpretation. Note Dayne's interjection "Then or now". Your interpretation assumes that "We swore a vow" directly follows "The Kingsguard do not flee", but it is also possible that it is an amplification of what Dayne said, and that Dayne's "Then or now" is indicating that the Kingsguard vow applies to then, and a new vow is what applies to now. This is also a perfectly good interpretation.

[stateofdissipation]

Because they learned of those deaths after they had happened. There are four other Kingsguard, and as far as they know all of the requirements for the Kingsguard are being satisfied, until they get news of the Trident and the fall of King's Landing. Your objections are trollish. If you throw in a succession, then they are protecting Rhaegar's heir, Jon. They are in the right place at the right time, but something extraordinary happens and they fail.

They are in the right place at the right time, but something extraordinary happens and they fail.

These kingsguard failed to keep two monarchs alive... a track record equal to Meryn Trant. He did not know Robert would miss his aim (extraordinary event). He did not know the wine was poisoned(extraordinary event). His ignorance or the extraordinary events involved did not make him any less remiss in his duties. The kingsguard at the tower of joy can't use ignorance and extraordinary events as an excuse either. They failed.

Kingsguard are being satisfied, until they get news of the Trident and the fall of King's Landing.

For the kingsguard at the tower to be satisfying their duties the news of the Trident and the sack must arrive after the baby is born.

---The Trident and the sack of King's Landing are not the same event. They are two places 350 miles apart. The time between the events is not given.

(If i am not mistaken you hold that it was less than two weeks-- based on Rossart being hand for two weeks.)

---Regardless of belief or hope, the kingsguard require an heir to lay claim to protecting an heir.

You ignore the kingsguard's shortcomings... though their exemplary behavior is required by the argument.

--insisting that Ned's"once" refers to these three and ignoring the irony in Jamie's comment on Hightower's loyalty to support the argument while ignoring the obvious fact that they had failed two kings hardly seems fair.

You ignore an absolute requirement of your argument--the news arrival.

---the fact that the arrival of the news at the tower is essential to your argument does not increase the probability of it happening

---without elaborating on the path Ned took or the path the news took there are a limited number of ways the baby, news, and Ned could have arrived in that order.

---the fact that your argument requires the kingsguard to have had an opportunity to act on the news limits the possibilities even further.

---The possible calculations without elaborating on the path the news and Ned took to the tower prove to be more absurd than an arbitrary assignment of routes and rates of travel.

Spelling this point out does make the case for the kingsguard guarding a king appear to be more of a in invention than a discovery. Leaving it unspecified does not make it go away.

[Kingmonkey]

Ned's dream portrays the three knights as a united block, strongly suggesting that Hightower, Whent, and Dayne stayed at the tower as a unified block, not for different reasons (for instance, Hightower following Aerys' command, and Dayne/Whent Rhaegar's explicit order). If that was the case, they would have had different motivations to do what they did, and this does not seem to be the case.

While they are certainly presented as having a united front, we don't know what unites them. Maybe opposition to Ned was the only thing that was. Notice how Dayne has a sad smile on his lips before the conversation even starts? I don't think it's too far fetched to think that maybe he did not want the fight to take place, but wasn't going to defy his Lord Commander.

[Lord Varys]

BC87,

tell that to Ser Kevan - well, okay, that was the Regency, but still...

[BearQueen87]

BC87,

tell that to Ser Kevan - well, okay, that was the Regency, but still...

Doesn't Cersei, the current Regent, recall Kevan at the end of Feast to serve as Regent because she's locked up by the Faith?