How reliable are the POVs?

[Annara Snow]

This crossed my mind recently about Cat and Littlefinger. I know there is some subjectivity inherent in a POV but to what extent? Would a character lie to themselves? Also, by this I don't mean the naivety of interpretation or perspective we see with Tyrion or Sansa but actual internalized deception or avoidance of fact. Cat says Ned was her first yet Littlefinger says otherwise. We know Littlefinger lies however there is a certain tension in Cat's Pov's with Littlefinger. She thinks of him fondly but there is an aspect of resentment almost in their interactions. It could just be me but I kinda get the feeling Littlefinger hit that.

Nope.

Littlefinger may be lying to himself (we don't have his POV so we don't know for sure). But we know who he did and who he did not have sex with - hint, it was not Catelyn, of course. (Who he did have sex with - that's what we find out in ASOS

and that he may be still living in the delusion it was Catelyn he lost his virginity to, when it was actually Lysa, who he called "Cat" because he was too drunk and delirious to know who had come to his bed.

Catelyn clearly never felt anything romantic for him and saw him only as a little brother. She was perplexed by him challenging Brandon on a duel and found it embarrassing. There's absolutely no doubt in her chapters that his romantic feelings were always unrequited.

The idea that she may have slept with him is a silly crackpot. Though it's funny that LF lies so well that he's even convincing some readers who should know better.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

This crossed my mind recently about Cat and Littlefinger. I know there is some subjectivity inherent in a POV but to what extent? Would a character lie to themselves? Also, by this I don't mean the naivety of interpretation or perspective we see with Tyrion or Sansa but actual internalized deception or avoidance of fact. Cat says Ned was her first yet Littlefinger says otherwise. We know Littlefinger lies however there is a certain tension in Cat's Pov's with Littlefinger. She thinks of him fondly but there is an aspect of resentment almost in their interactions. It could just be me but I kinda get the feeling Littlefinger hit that.

No. Spoilers for Storm:

LF slept only with Lysa, but did do twice. The first time, wad after he had been rejected by Catelyn (he had tried to kiss her), which caused him to drink too much. Lysa snuck to LG's room when he had been brought to bed, and they sleep together, but in his drunken state, LF believes it is Catelyn he sleeps with, not Lysa. Before he falls asleep, he whispers 'Cat'.

The next time is after LF's duel to Brandon. Lysa helps care for him, and they have sex again. This time, LF is aware it is Lysa, causing him to believe he slept with both sisters. (this second encounter is also when Lysa got pregnant.) LG leaves Riverrun within days afterwards.

[Inevittable]

All of the characters in ASoIaF have far less understanding of their world than most modern humans have of Earth. Their gods and mythical events are more real to them than those kinds of things are for the majority of contemporary Earthlings, for instance.

I think this is quite an interesting point. The entire way that a character views their world will be limited to their own knowledge of it, which again in the world of Ice and Fire is limited to word of mouth and actual experience.

[Taenqyrhae]

Littlefinger says he took both daughter's virginity. If he in reality just slept with Lysa twice and thought it was Cat the first time, why did he think he took Lysa's virginity if she did not have a hymen at the time?

[ummester]

I think this is quite an interesting point. The entire way that a character views their world will be limited to their own knowledge of it, which again in the world of Ice and Fire is limited to word of mouth and actual experience.

I started this thread having only read half of ACoKs - I've finished all of the novels now and what remains to me as the most intriguing aspect is how the world works.

The characters all of their own human understandings and bias and interact as they will, as the story unfolds - though I am most intrigued by the natural and magical world that surrounds them.

The massive turtle Tyrion saw, for instance - just how big was it? Being a dwarf, is Tyrion's perception of animal size exaggerated?

The magic and magical events opens an entire can of worms. In times gone past on Earth, actual humans believed events the could not understand to be magical in nature and adjusted their perception based on this. How much of the magic in ASoIaF is inaccurate character perception?

[John Suburbs]

Littlefinger says he took both daughter's virginity. If he in reality just slept with Lysa twice and thought it was Cat the first time, why did he think he took Lysa's virginity if she did not have a hymen at the time?

Because he didn't know it was Lysa twice. He thought it was once with Cat and once with Lysa. I doubt he got down on her to the point where he could inspect her hymen.

[Taenqyrhae]

Because he didn't know it was Lysa twice. He thought it was once with Cat and once with Lysa. I doubt he got down on her to the point where he could inspect her hymen.

I'd think he would notice the lack of blood on his penis (see how Barbrey Dustin describes how Brandon Stark enjoyed seeing her blood on his penis when he deflowered her). You'd think he'd say "I took Cat's virginity, but someone else must have got to her sister first".

[John Suburbs]

He was bombed, and inexperienced. He had no idea what to expect.

And besides, I'm not even sure LF believes he had Cat in any event. I think he just started spewing that story because he was shamed by Brandon.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I'd think he would notice the lack of blood on his penis (see how Barbrey Dustin describes how Brandon Stark enjoyed seeing her blood on his penis when he deflowered her). You'd think he'd say "I took Cat's virginity, but someone else must have got to her sister first".

Considering the state LF was in (still wounded from his battle), I doubt he would have noticed.

And besides,forgotten about this?

A pity. Still, the absence of a bloody sheet meant little, by itself. Common peasant girls bled like pigs upon their wedding nights, she had heard, but that was less true of highborn maids like Margaery Tyrell. A lord’s daughter was more like to give her maidenhead to a horse than a husband, it was said, and Margaery had been riding since she was old enough to walk.

[Skagosi High Chef]

You don't have to be condescending guys, I read ASOS, I know what the common verdict is, I was just commenting on how reliable POV's are and that was a point that stuck out for me on that particular situation. Cat has deluded perspective on many other situations and has a bit of tunnel vision at times. LF only has the one. So to say, NOPE, I was tricked by a POV wouldn't be much better than me saying you were.

[hales]

Yeah. I generally don't form an opinion on a character until I've read something from their POV and another characters, so I can see at least two different opinions. Because you are reading the chapters through a veil of the characters emotions/beliefs/opinions.

[King Jon Coldhands]

At one point in this book Daenerys tells Jorah that although certain tales may not be entirely truthful, the truth can be found in the voices of many. I think this is GRRM's hidden explanation of how we're supposed to interpret the POVS; take each with a grain of salt, and look for the bigger picture that they paint together.