Catelyn Stark AKA The Detriment

[SeanF]

Goddamnit, if you'd included "Was cruel to Jon", I'd have gotten a bingo.

Not quite. To get a full house, you must add:-

i) Neglected Bran and Rickon, by looking after her dying father

ii) Put Ned to the expense of builidng a Sept, because she wilfully refused to convert to his religion.

[HexMachina]

Not quite. To get a full house, you must add:-

i) Neglected Bran and Rickon, by looking after her dying father

ii) Put Ned to the expense of builidng a Sept, because she wilfully refused to convert to his religion.

iii) Was responsible for Bran's "fall"

Yes, this was actually a thing.

[BastardlyRock]

Not quite. To get a full house, you must add:-

i) Neglected Bran and Rickon, by looking after her dying father

ii) Put Ned to the expense of builidng a Sept, because she wilfully refused to convert to his religion.

iii) Was responsible for Bran's "fall"

Yes, this was actually a thing.

No need to stop there:

iv) Directly responsible for Jory's death

[RainGhost]

Regarding Jaime's release contributing to the RW, I believe it did but not because of its influence over Tywin, rather its influence on Roose. GRRM has said that Roose was still uncertain of what to do even as late as Jaime arriving in Harrenhal. Roose sending Jaime back to Tywin allowed him to prove his loyalty to the Lannisters. It also weakened Robb's position because he had lost an important hostage. Then there's the Karstark betrayal, which doesn't happen if Jaime remains a hostage. Robb was betrayed by his own mother and by one of his bannermen, which lost him all those men. It makes him look weak.

However, that's not to say that the RW definitely wouldn't have happened if Jaime had remained a hostage and there's certainly no way you can blame Catelyn for it. But she did at the very least knowingly weaken Robb's position and undermine his authority. I understand why she did it though, so I don't judge her too harshly.

[Meemaw]

The only thing I blame Cat for is her arranged marriage she set for Arya. A highborn girl to the boy that was like 22nd in line for his houses seat. She sold her too cheap.

[stateofdissipation]

BINGO!

That's three boxes in one: "Is cruel to Jon" , "Is the only person mean to Jon" and "caused the Red Wedding".

Seriously though, if "treating Jon like a bastard" means "letting him eat, live,learn and play with and love all my children with me not trying to poison or distance them against him", it really doesn't justify Robb's decision. At all.

Just one box. If one makes a big deal out of bastards one makes a big deal out of not making them as well. Cat did one but could not foresee the other. The one box is stupid.

Cat is hardly responsible... responsibility would require capability and understanding, two things that Cat lacks completely. Blaming Cat is kind of like being mad at rain because it is wet. Rain is a force of nature. Cat is a force of stupid. Cat consistently shows a lack of awareness of her situation and an inability to foresee likely consequences of her actions. Not seeing the consequences of maintaining strict lines between trueborn and baseborn children was just an example of the latter.

Cat is completely blameless... not responsible... innocent as a lamb (also as competent and intelligent as a lamb)

[HexMachina]

The only thing I blame Cat for is her arranged marriage she set for Arya. A highborn girl to the boy that was like 22nd in line for his houses seat. She sold her too cheap.

Arya wasn't inheriting anything either though.

[Meemaw]

Neither was Sansa but she was set the marry the prince. Tywin was pissed that his sister was set to marry a Frey that wasnt set to inherit and stood up to his father. Girls dont typically inherit anyway. Arya could have been promised to another of equal status.

[Poppa Chase]

She was a pawn in the game of thrones. You can't blame those things on her.

You CAN blame her for not being a mother to Jon. That is just bad character.

[JoeyBanana]

The only thing I blame Cat for is her arranged marriage she set for Arya. A highborn girl to the boy that was like 22nd in line for his houses seat. She sold her too cheap.

See it this way, if he's 22nd in line, nobody will care when he inevitably dies in some unfortunate accident

[RainGhost]

She was a pawn in the game of thrones. You can't blame those things on her.

You CAN blame her for not being a mother to Jon. That is just bad character.

Jon should feel glad she wasn't Cersei. Why should Catelyn be a mother to Jon? She's not his mother. I find that perfectly understandable. She could have been a bit nicer to him yeah because it wasn't his fault but treated him like a son? That's expecting too much. I like Cat and Jon and I don't hold this against Cat. 'It should have been you' was out of order though but she was a bit emotionally crazy at that time.

[Meemaw]

See it this way, if he's 22nd in line, nobody will care when he inevitably dies in some unfortunate accident

I dont think there is any doubt that he would have met an unfortunate accident if the marriage took place.

[HexMachina]

I dont think there is any doubt that he would have met an unfortunate accident if the marriage took place.

Doubt it. Arya wasn't always a vengeful murderer you know. If the marriage had taken place she would not be who she is now

[JoeyBanana]

Doubt it. Arya wasn't always a vengeful murderer you know. If the marriage had taken place she would not be who she is now

I wasn't serious, i actually see her rather trying to run away from the marriage more than anything else

Maybe following in her greatgrandfather's footsteps and wandering the world

[Meemaw]

Not aways no. She was on her way to the wall at this point and has already killed that boy in the stable. She already bashed Joffery one at this point. She met him at Harrenhal and they deffo did not get along.

[Poppa Chase]

Jon should feel glad she wasn't Cersei. Why should Catelyn be a mother to Jon? She's not his mother. I find that perfectly understandable. She could have been a bit nicer to him yeah because it wasn't his fault but treated him like a son? That's expecting too much. I like Cat and Jon and I don't hold this against Cat. 'It should have been you' was out of order though but she was a bit emotionally crazy at that time.

My mom treated my friends better than cat treated her husbands son.

[BastardlyRock]

My mom treated my friends better than cat treated her husbands son.

Were your friends also your father's children that he had with another woman while married to your mom? If not then I don't see how this is an apt comparison.

[Poppa Chase]

Were your friends also your father's children that he had with another woman while married to your mom? If not then I don't see how this is an apt comparison.

Yes. My family is crazy like that.

No, it was an awful example. A better one would be my aunt who is married and has two children of her own with her husband. Their ages at this moment are 17 and 19. Her husband has two children with his ex wife. their ages are 20 and 18. My aunt is still happily married to him and treats those kids as if they were her own.

Then again she is a modern day saint.

[oba]

Yes. My family is crazy like that.

No, it was an awful example. A better one would be my aunt who is married and has two children of her own with her husband. Their ages at this moment are 17 and 19. Her husband has two children with his ex wife. their ages are 20 and 18. My aunt is still happily married to him and treats those kids as if they were her own.

Then again she is a modern day saint.

Hold on. I’m a step-parent myself. By that, I mean, my wife had a child from a previous marriage. I was completely aware of this when we tied the knot.

I’m not getting into Round 9,999 of the Cat/Jon debate, but, it would be completely dishonest if I pretended my attitude would be the same if, after my wife and I got married, she gave birth to a child fathered by someone else.

[Poppa Chase]

Hold on. Im a step-parent myself. By that, I mean, my wife had a child from a previous marriage. I was completely aware of this when we tied the knot.

Im not getting into Round 9,999 of the Cat/Jon debate, but, it would be completely dishonest if I pretended my attitude would be the same if, after my wife and I got married, she gave birth to a child fathered by someone else.

Yep. She may have been pretending but she still treated them as her own. She had a baby boy with the man an then he went back and got his ex wife pregnant.

I'm from Florida if this helps explain anything.