Catelyn Stark AKA The Detriment

[Knight Owl]

She acted smart and put a lot of thought into her decisions all throughout the series until her death. Just like any other character she had flaws and made mistakes, but i don't see her as someone who negatively influenced or accelerated the demise of the Starks in a big way.

Had more people listened to her advice, including Robb and Renly and Stannis, things would have turned out very differently. By kidnapping Tyrion, she gave her side a major advantage, a hostage (even if it was actually an arrest, she still held him). It was Lysa who screwed that up by letting him go. If he dies, well too bad, but what really hurt Catelyn's cause was him getting away unharmed.

This is another case of hindsight clouding judgement.

But she had no direct evidence that Tyrion ordered Bran's assassination. Her entire argument was based on Little Finger's assertion that intended murder weapon was Tyrion's knife. Upon that weak "evidence" she wrongfully arrested Tyrion. Being a Lannister of Casterly Rock, she had to know that Tywin would not take kindly to such an affront. Lysa did foil the whole keeping Tyrion as a hostage scenario, but Cat never should have taken him in the first place. Had she resisted the urge, the story likely would have played out very differently.

[Mark Antony]

Haha, exactly. That's the other one I put on my foolish/horrible things Cat has done list.

Ye gods

[David Selig]

Haha, exactly. That's the other one I put on my foolish/horrible things Cat has done list.

You, sir, win the "Broken sarcasm detector" award for the day.

[Knight Owl]

Actually, he was suspecting from his very first POV chapter, when he spoke with Cersei and Jaime. He even asked Bran whether he remembers. He knew what happened to Bran. Perhaps not the whole truth and the specifics, but he knew that the twins are behind it.

He correctly deduced that his siblings were behind the fall from the Tower, but the twins don't straight up admit it to him while they're at Winterfell. To Tyrion's dismay, the learns about the assassination attempt when he's arrested by Cat, and as he hears more about the knife and details of the attempted assassination, he arrives at the conclusion that Joffrey was likely behind the attempt on Bran's life.

There was no reason for Cat to arrest him as he wasn't a party to either attempts on Bran's life. Yes, he had made certain deductions, but that doesn't make him guilty of anything warranting arrest.

[The Golden Wolf]

He correctly deduced that his siblings were behind the fall from the Tower, but the twins don't straight up admit it to him while they're at Winterfell. To Tyrion's dismay, the learns about the assassination attempt when he's arrested by Cat, and as he hears more about the knife and details of the attempted assassination, he arrives at the conclusion that Joffrey was likely behind the attempt on Bran's life.

There was no reason for Cat to arrest him as he wasn't a party to either attempts on Bran's life. Yes, he had made certain deductions, but that doesn't make him guilty of anything warranting arrest.

This person understands the dilemma that is the Catnapping.

Even the notion that if she had just been cordial with Tyrion while at the inn and headed back to the North or even Riverrun is shot by Catnapping proponents. They assert that it would have aroused suspicion in Cersie who would have moved against Robert and Ned even faster because Catelyn may have given Ned the news that Bran have awoken and implicated Jaime in not only defenestration of his person but that he also saw Jaime laying with the queen. but I call poppycock on that. If that had been the case then as soon as Catelyn had left Ned would have went to Robert and demanded Justice long before Tyrion arrived.

There is even the notion that Cersie may have tried to send riders against Catelyn for fear she carried some secret info. but Tyrion revealing Catelyn actually means that Catelyn could travel in the open upon the Kingsroad through her father's domain and into the domain of her husband and even call upon her father's bannermen to escort her through the Riverlands if she felt threatened. One does not just abduct or harm a member of one of the Great Houses of Westeros without fear of great repercussions to befall all those involved. something Catelyn forgot.

[Mladen]

He correctly deduced that his siblings were behind the fall from the Tower, but the twins don't straight up admit it to him while they're at Winterfell. To Tyrion's dismay, the learns about the assassination attempt when he's arrested by Cat, and as he hears more about the knife and details of the attempted assassination, he arrives at the conclusion that Joffrey was likely behind the attempt on Bran's life.

There was no reason for Cat to arrest him as he wasn't a party to either attempts on Bran's life. Yes, he had made certain deductions, but that doesn't make him guilty of anything warranting arrest.

Yes, and from the second where he knew that his siblings are behind Bran's fall, he became basically active conspirator to hide it. That still didn't matter in terms of Catnapping. And I am agreeing with butterbumps and her work on this, where she said that Catelyn worked on wrong premises, told by a man she thought she could have trusted. But, objectively there is no point of denying that ultimately the action was wrong - for Tyrion hadn't committed the crime Cat accused him of. So, there is a reason to arrest Tyrion from what Catelyn knew, but from our omnipresent and omniscient perspective, she surely had no right.

[juanml82]

Yes, and from the second where he knew that his siblings are behind Bran's fall, he became basically active conspirator to hide it. That still didn't matter in terms of Catnapping. And I am agreeing with butterbumps and her work on this, where she said that Catelyn worked on wrong premises, told by a man she thought she could have trusted. But, objectively there is no point of denying that ultimately the action was wrong - for Tyrion hadn't committed the crime Cat accused him of. So, there is a reason to arrest Tyrion from what Catelyn knew, but from our omnipresent and omniscient perspective, she surely had no right.

One of Cat's issues is that the man she trusted didn't tell her "Tyrion did it". He told her "That's Tyrion's dagger", which should lead to the conclusion that Tyrion was definitely not the guilty party and, even more, that someone was trying to implicate him in the murder attempt.

[BastardlyRock]

Ah, so this is just another Cat-bashing thread. How original.

[LordStoneheart]

One of Cat's issues is that the man she trusted didn't tell her "Tyrion did it". He told her "That's Tyrion's dagger", which should lead to the conclusion that Tyrion was definitely not the guilty party and, even more, that someone was trying to implicate him in the murder attempt.

What book are you reading? Littlefinger directly implicates Tyrion as the suspect when he says it the Imp's dagger and after that suggests he did not act alone, subtly implicating Cersei and/or Jaime, which is what Catelyn had surmised in the first place when she realized Jaime didn't go on the hunt and might have pushed Bran.

Ah, so this is just another Cat-bashing thread. How original.

Yeah... I tried to be positive in my criticism of it at first but there's only so much I can do when people are just plain wrong. :D

[JoeyBanana]

But she had no direct evidence that Tyrion ordered Bran's assassination. Her entire argument was based on Little Finger's assertion that intended murder weapon was Tyrion's knife. Upon that weak "evidence" she wrongfully arrested Tyrion. Being a Lannister of Casterly Rock, she had to know that Tywin would not take kindly to such an affront. Lysa did foil the whole keeping Tyrion as a hostage scenario, but Cat never should have taken him in the first place. Had she resisted the urge, the story likely would have played out very differently.

The problem is, Tyrion identified her. She had two choices, arrest him or let him go. She chose the former. The latter isn't really the better option, since that would reveal her secret journey south to the Lannisters and heavily implicate Ned in some sort of conspiracy/plot. Who else was she going to pretend to have visited and would anybody believe it? Her visit was impossible to cover up at this point and with suspicious Lannisters, it immediately puts Ned in danger and most likely also impedes his ability to investigate further (in both cases, Bran's fall and Jon Arryn's murder). Not to forget, if Tyrion gets alarmed, he may return to CR and stay out of reach, even if proven giulty.

She didn't just arrest him out of thin air, her action had motivation and reason. Her journey would be revealed and Ned's position/life endangered in each scenario, whether Tyrion reports meeting her or gets arrested. It was her only chance to actually take him and get justice. She was also smart enough to realize that Tyrion as a hostage would be strong leverage against the Lannisters. Remember, she didn't know Robert very well and had experienced the rift between Cersei and the King. She naturally assumed that Robert would back Ned if things get nasty.

Now throw Littlefinger's little lie on that pile of political reasoning and chance. Of course, we all know that Tyrion did not push Bran, Baelish lied, it led to Tywin unleashing The Mountain and that Lysa is unreliable/crazy, and so many judge Catelyn with all the power of hindsight for that while ignoring the circumstances of the Catnapping.

I think trying to argue that Tyrion was giulty of something, is missing the point, since he had no solid evidence and only suspected the twins' involvement.

But it was not a stupid decision to arrest Tyrion, even if it was not exactly legal, right, or turned out great. It's one of those situation in which you carefully calculate every step and suddenly life just throws something so random at you, that all your plans become useless and you only have the choice between pest and cholera. (I think i've butchered that saying, but i hope you get what i was trying to say)

[RainGhost]

If Cat hadn't arrested Tyrion though, what would Tyrion really have done? He already knew that she wasn't at Winterfell. It's suspicious her being at an inn with only one knight as a guard but why would that makes him think the Starks are moving against the Lannisters? Why would he necessarily think she's been to KL? It might just have been one those things he filed away in his head, perhaps he would have casually mentioned it to Ned once he got to KL or maybe Jaime.

[Liam Prieto]

She did mess up, alot but no more than any advisor i would think. Plus she was right about theon being treacherous and Robb keeping grey wind with him at all time.

I really disliked how vehemently she was against Jon Snow being heir though. She'd rather arya, who is thought to be dead be heir, which is the same thing as allowing Tyrion and sansa inherit it the north than bastard of Neds.

Oh yeah and killimg jingle bell was messed up, he was the only innocent frey. She should have done what she wanted to do in the first place and kill lord Frey.

Also it was foolish to trust Baelish, since she knows

A) he is in love with her, giving him motive to want to see Ned dead

B) She had already spurned Baelish, and refused to see him after he was wounded fighting for her hand. Why would Baelish truly help her after that?

[Knight Owl]

You, sir, win the "Broken sarcasm detector" award for the day.

At least I won an award!

[RainGhost]

She did mess up, alot but no more than any advisor i would think. Plus she was right about theon being treacherous and Robb keeping grey wind with him at all time.

I really disliked how vehemently she was against Jon Snow being heir though. She'd rather arya, who is thought to be dead be heir, which is the same thing as allowing Tyrion and sansa inherit it the north than bastard of Neds.

Oh yeah and killimg jingle bell was messed up, he was the only innocent frey. She should have done what she wanted to do in the first place and kill lord Frey.

Also it was foolish to trust Baelish, since she knows

A) he is in love with her, giving him motive to want to see Ned dead

B) She had already spurned Baelish, and refused to see him after he was wounded fighting for her hand. Why would Baelish truly help her after that?

I agree. But her problem with Jon Snow is Robb legitimising him. Remember, she still thinks Robb is going to live and have sons. She's worried that Jon might have sons and they will challenge Robb's sons for WF.

Jinglebell was the one she could reach. That was such a powerful moment in the books. She was absolutely desperate. Ironically it's comparable to Jaime throwing Bran out the window and proves that she is willing to do anything for her children.

You are right about Baelish but she believes he truly loves or loved her. If he did truly love her, he wouldn't want to kill the people she loves. Also, she genereally sees him as a brother and thinks that he may at least still see her as a sister. Cat's a good person, she can't imagine what a scumbag LF is.

[Knight Owl]

She did mess up, alot but no more than any advisor i would think. Plus she was right about theon being treacherous and Robb keeping grey wind with him at all time.

I really disliked how vehemently she was against Jon Snow being heir though. She'd rather arya, who is thought to be dead be heir, which is the same thing as allowing Tyrion and sansa inherit it the north than bastard of Neds.

Oh yeah and killimg jingle bell was messed up, he was the only innocent frey. She should have done what she wanted to do in the first place and kill lord Frey.

Also it was foolish to trust Baelish, since she knows

A) he is in love with her, giving him motive to want to see Ned dead

B) She had already spurned Baelish, and refused to see him after he was wounded fighting for her hand. Why would Baelish truly help her after that?

While Cat is not my favorite, I agree that she did make some good calls. Especially concerning Theon and Grey Wind. I wasn't a fan of her opposition to Robb making Jon his heir either, but I wasn't surprised, she loathed Jon, and couldn't get past his birth, which was no fault of his own.

Kudos on the pointing out the Jingle Bell murder to me, I just kind of glossed by that, and in hindsight, that was messed up. He was just a simple lackwit who had no role in the the betrayal. I get that she was distraught, but he was innocent.

[juanml82]

What book are you reading? Littlefinger directly implicates Tyrion as the suspect when he says it the Imp's dagger and after that suggests he did not act alone, subtly implicating Cersei and/or Jaime, which is what Catelyn had surmised in the first place when she realized Jaime didn't go on the hunt and might have pushed Bran.

Yeah... I tried to be positive in my criticism of it at first but there's only so much I can do when people are just plain wrong. :D

Errr... here's the text

“And if I had,” she said, “what would you have told me?”

“I would have told you that there was only one knife like this at King’s Landing.” He grasped the blade between thumb and forefinger, drew it back over his shoulder, and threw it across the room with a practiced flick of his wrist. It struck the door and buried itself deep in the oak, quivering. “It’s mine.”

“Yours?” It made no sense. Petyr had not been at Winterfell.

“Until the tourney on Prince Joffrey’s name day,” he said, crossing the room to wrench the dagger from the wood. “I backed Ser Jaime in the jousting, along with half the court.” Petyr’s sheepish grin made him look half a boy again. “When Loras Tyrell unhorsed him, many of us became a trifle poorer. Ser Jaime lost a hundred golden dragons, the queen lost an emerald pendant, and I lost my knife. Her Grace got the emerald back, but the winner kept the rest.”

“Who?” Catelyn demanded, her mouth dry with fear. Her fingers ached with remembered pain.

“The Imp,” said Littlefinger as Lord Varys watched her face. “Tyrion Lannister.”

(END OF CHAPTER)

Catelyn's logical conclusion ought to be "None would pay an assassin with such a valuable and easily identifiable dagger, so someone tried to implicate Tyrion in Bran's murder. Why?"

It's afterwards that Littlefinger blames Cersei, when Ned meets Catelyn at the brothel

Painfully, Ned forced his thoughts back to the dagger and what it meant. “The Imp’s dagger,” he repeated. It made no sense. His hand curled around the smooth dragonbone hilt, and he

slammed the blade into the table, felt it bite into the wood. It stood mocking him. “Why should Tyrion Lannister want Bran dead? The boy has never done him harm.”

“Do you Starks have nought but snow between your ears?” Littlefinger asked. “The Imp would never have acted alone.”

Ned rose and paced the length of the room. “If the queen had a role in this or, gods forbid, the king himself... no, I will not believe that.” Yet even as he said the words, he remembered that chill morning on the barrowlands, and Robert’s talk of sending hired knives after the Targaryen princess. He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

“Most likely the king did not know,” Littlefinger said. “It would not be the first time. Our good Robert is practiced at closing his eyes to things he would rather not see.”

Ned had no reply for that. The face of the butcher’s boy swam up before his eyes, cloven almost in two, and afterward the king had said not a word. His head was pounding

Ned is actually somewhat closer to the truth. Tyrion had no reason to want Bran dead, at least as far as he knew and the weapon did come from Robert's weapon cache. But they chose the less reasonable conclusion: that Tyrion, Cersei and maybe even Robert all conspired to kill Bran and did it in a way that could implicate themselves.

[David Selig]

Catelyn's logical conclusion ought to be "None would pay an assassin with such a valuable and easily identifiable dagger, so someone tried to implicate Tyrion in Bran's murder. Why?"

It's afterwards that Littlefinger blames Cersei, when Ned meets Catelyn at the brothel

That's a logical conclusion only in contrived detective novels, where obvious clues are always wrong or planted. And as we all know, it would've been wrong. Most actual murder plans are dumb. And if you have to go halfway around a continent and rely on meeting one of a handful of people who knew a weapon to identify, it's not easily identifiable in my book.

[juanml82]

That's a logical conclusion only in contrived detective novels, where obvious clues are always wrong or planted. And as we all know, it would've been wrong. Most actual murder plans are dumb. And if you have to go halfway around a continent and rely on meeting one of a handful of people who knew a weapon to identify, it's not easily identifiable in my book.

I'd agree if it was an elaborate steel dagger. But Valyrian Steel is priceless in the series. None would pay to the Westerosi equivalent of a hobo with it if they had plenty of gold handy. The silver itself was payment enough.

[FreeParking]

Cat sailed to King's Landing. Did Cat give a reason why she didn't sail back to White Harbor?

[Le Cygne]

*adds to list of stuff that must happen* After she gets him to admit that he killed her sister as well as her husband.

Yes, and what he did to all of them, basically, he's to blame for all of it. If it does happen, I just hope it's prolonged, no quick Joffrey type death. Make this one good, GRRM.