Catelyn Stark AKA The Detriment

[ARYa_Nym]

Not aways no. She was on her way to the wall at this point and has already killed that boy in the stable. She already bashed Joffery one at this point. She met him at Harrenhal and they deffo did not get along.

She met Elmar when Roose took over Harrenhal so by that time it was that boy, some soldiers when she was with Yoren, orchestrating the deaths of Weese and Chiswyck, and the collateral damage of Weasel Soup. But getting rid of the body or making it look like an accident didn't happen until she went to Braavos.

[RainGhost]

Yep. She may have been pretending but she still treated them as her own. She had a baby boy with the man an then he went back and got his ex wife pregnant.

I'm from Florida if this helps explain anything.

Well then your auntie is a very nice lady. She's in the minority - most women would not do the same as her.

[oba]

Yep. She may have been pretending but she still treated them as her own. She had a baby boy with the man an then he went back and got his ex wife pregnant.

I'm from Florida if this helps explain anything.

Oh, I didn't catch that (I skimmed over the respective ages of the children). Your aunt definitely has an extremely caring heart, as I certainly could not promise I would be accepting of the situation.

[The Golden Wolf]

Catelyn was a great woman whose family unfortunately was hit by a tsunami of bad luck. The Starks have some of the worst luck in Westeros.

The only things you can truly fault her for are the arrest/abduction of Tyrion and setting Jaime free. that is it.

Everything that that happens in Kingslanding in on Ned. No telling Robert what he suspected, not getting the Girls on the first ship out of Kingslanding after Jaime attacked him ( i mean really screw packing just hire a ship to take your girls home), not taking Renly's advice to seize the children. He could have better protected them while they were in his custody. telling Cersie is not bad in itself, not arresting her for crimes against the crown right after is.

Robb was doomed by Theon actually being able to take Winterfell and marrying Jeyne Westerling. one of those things happening is bad but both plus Catelyn releasing Jaime is major.

If Edmure had been a stronger acting Lord of the Riverlands, Walder would not have dared try to haggle such a deal out of Catelyn.

I know the Starks had to get the living hell beat out of them for the story to advance but damn did it hurt to read.

[Poppa Chase]

Oh, I didn't catch that (I skimmed over the respective ages of the children). Your aunt definitely has an extremely caring heart, as I certainly could not promise I would be accepting of the situation.

But would you have hated them the way Catelyn did? I would think you would be more mad at your partner than the innocent child. Sure you won't have the exact same felling for them as you do your own, but you wouldn't make them believe you hate them would you?

My aunt is actually the best person i know so it's not a fair example either way.

[BastardlyRock]

Catelyn was a great woman whose family unfortunately was hit by a tsunami of bad luck. The Starks have some of the worst luck in Westeros.

The only things you can truly fault her for are the arrest/abduction of Tyrion and setting Jaime free. that is it.

Unless you've already seen it I would direct you to Catnapping: A PSA -- I think it helps shed a lot of light on an often vastly misinterpreted/too shallowly interpreted scene.

[RainGhost]

Catelyn was a great woman whose family unfortunately was hit by a tsunami of bad luck. The Starks have some of the worst luck in Westeros.

The only things you can truly fault her for are the arrest/abduction of Tyrion and setting Jaime free. that is it.

Everything that that happens in Kingslanding in on Ned. No telling Robert what he suspected, not getting the Girls on the first ship out of Kingslanding after Jaime attacked him ( i mean really screw packing just hire a ship to take your girls home), not taking Renly's advice to seize the children. He could have better protected them while they were in his custody. telling Cersie is not bad in itself, not arresting her for crimes against the crown right after is.

Robb was doomed by Theon actually being able to take Winterfell and marrying Jeyne Westerling. one of those things happening is bad but both plus Catelyn releasing Jaime is major.

If Edmure had been a stronger acting Lord of the Riverlands, Walder would not have dared try to haggle such a deal out of Catelyn.

I know the Starks had to get the living hell beat out of them for the story to advance but damn did it hurt to read.

:agree: Well said.

[oba]

But would you have hated them the way Catelyn did? I would think you would be more mad at your partner than the innocent child. Sure you won't have the exact same felling for them as you do your own, but you wouldn't make them believe you hate them would you?

My aunt is actually the best person i know so it's not a fair example either way.

I’d like to think I wouldn’t take my resentment toward my wife out on an innocent kid. That being said, I’m a male living in the 21st century, and thus would have had a whole host of options (most notably, divorce) that really weren’t available to Catelyn in the setting created by the author.

Like I posted earlier, I really don’t feel like rehashing this argument vis-a-vis Catelyn’s treatment of and/or attitude towards Jon as it’s been done about a million times. I simply wanted to point out that blended families, even under “ideal” circumstances can be tricky and that the dynamic as presented in the books is not as simple as Cat the Wicked Stepmother.

Just my $.02.

[stateofdissipation]

Catelyn was a great woman whose family unfortunately was hit by a tsunami of bad luck. The Starks have some of the worst luck in Westeros.

The only things you can truly fault her for are the arrest/abduction of Tyrion and setting Jaime free. that is it.

Everything that that happens in Kingslanding in on Ned. No telling Robert what he suspected, not getting the Girls on the first ship out of Kingslanding after Jaime attacked him ( i mean really screw packing just hire a ship to take your girls home), not taking Renly's advice to seize the children. He could have better protected them while they were in his custody. telling Cersie is not bad in itself, not arresting her for crimes against the crown right after is.

Robb was doomed by Theon actually being able to take Winterfell and marrying Jeyne Westerling. one of those things happening is bad but both plus Catelyn releasing Jaime is major.

If Edmure had been a stronger acting Lord of the Riverlands, Walder would not have dared try to haggle such a deal out of Catelyn.

I know the Starks had to get the living hell beat out of them for the story to advance but damn did it hurt to read.

Luck is a combination of skill and success, Least skill achieving greatest success=greatest luck. Greatest skill achieving the worst failure=worst luck. Reasonable skill achieving reasonable success or failure=no luck. The Starks have not achieved failure out of line with their skills... not a matter of bad luck.

Cat is completely blameless and fault free. A monkey with a handgrenade is also blameless and fault free. Possibly dangerous and destructive defintely.. Responsible or culpable definitely not.

Ned is responsible for his own fate in King's Landing.

Robb was doomed by playing war. He was tactically sound but strategically stupid.

Edmure was on par with Cat as far as being responsible.

The dead Starks deserved it... Ned killing Lady and Robb beheading Rickard.

[Meemaw]

She met Elmar when Roose took over Harrenhal so by that time it was that boy, some soldiers when she was with Yoren, orchestrating the deaths of Weese and Chiswyck, and the collateral damage of Weasel Soup. But getting rid of the body or making it look like an accident didn't happen until she went to Braavos.

But if Elmar Frey would start to abuse her during a marrriage and she is surrounded by Freys Im sure she is smart enough to make it look like an accident Braavos or no Braavos unless she went full wolf blood on him during the heat of the moment like she did Joffery.

[The Golden Wolf]

Unless you've already seen it I would direct you to Catnapping: A PSA -- I think it helps shed a lot of light on an often vastly misinterpreted/too shallowly interpreted scene.

I never blamed her for starting the War of the Five Kings. I only said the the only thing you can fault her for is arresting/abducting Tyrion in the first place. it was going to go lopsided no matter what she did because Tywin and the Lannisters are so arrogant that they believe they do not have to answer to the other Great Houses.

Catelyn clearly announced why she was placing Tyrion under arrest and invoked it under preserving the King's justice yet Tyrion was sure that no matter what his father would send men to bring him back.

Luck is a combination of skill and success, Least skill achieving greatest success=greatest luck. Greatest skill achieving the worst failure=worst luck. Reasonable skill achieving reasonable success or failure=no luck. The Starks have not achieved failure out of line with their skills... not a matter of bad luck.

Cat is completely blameless and fault free. A monkey with a handgrenade is also blameless and fault free. Possibly dangerous and destructive defintely.. Responsible or culpable definitely not.

Ned is responsible for his own fate in King's Landing.

Robb was doomed by playing war. He was tactically sound but strategically stupid.

Edmure was on par with Cat as far as being responsible.

The dead Starks deserved it... Ned killing Lady and Robb beheading Rickard.

None of the Starks deserved their fate.

Ned did not deserve to be beheaded by a false king after giving a false confession to protect his daughter.

Robb did not deserve to die while under Guest Right for breaking a marriage contract.

Edmure as acting Lord of the Riverlands was actually the most responsible for the protection of the Riverlands. The Riverlands can provide the same amount of men as the Westerlands and as there is only one pass that connects the Westerlands to the Riverlands he should have had enough time to marshal a defense of his lands. Which the Riverlands was actually able to do until they split their forces to guard many targets instead of keeping them concentrated to focus on the two main threats.

Lady being killed by Ned could not be helped as his King ordered it. Rickard had to pay for his crimes. His sons died in honorable combat against one of the best swords in the Seven Kingdoms while protecting their future Lord. His grief over loosing them was understandable but his actions towards the hostages was without honor and a blight upon the Northern Campaign.

[Archmaester Drew]

Yeah totally ridiculous to think that Jaime pushed Bran. Because that's not what happened, right?

The letter from Lysa (who at this point they have no reason to disregard), the assassin trying to kill Bran, and Jaime not being at the hunt are not ridiculous reason to suspect Jaime. And whataya know, Catelyn was right on the effing mark when no one else was.

If you bothered to read a few more posts you would see that I clarified that:

"Sorry -- what I think is ridiculous is that just because he has never fallen before doesn't mean he won't. They certainly had reason to be suspicious at that point, but they had no real evidence. :)"

But Lady Stoneheart is monomaniacal... ;)

[hear me bore]

Looking back, I can't believe how wrong Cat was about just about everything. I'm not saying all of these are her fault, some are very understandable and she just trusted the wrong people, but there is a pattern

1) She was tricked into thinking Jon Arryn was murdered by the Lannisters by her sister

2) She knew that Ned was unlikely to return to King's Landing (Symbolism of direwolf killed by stag at very beginning) but urged him to go anyway

3) She told Ned to trust sweet little Petyr Baelish, and didn't that turn out rosy

4) She kidnapped Tyrion even though he had nothing to do with Bran's fall, accelerating the start of the Wo5K

5) She let Lysa take Tyrion from her to be executed or released following the trial by combat

6) She was the one who forged the Frey alliance with her terrible negotiating skills (two trueborn marriages for the support of her own bannermen)

7) She persuaded Robb to give command of half of his army to Roose Bolton instead of the Greatjon, who then intentionally killed most of it

8) She released Jaime, Robb's most valuable hostage and simultaneously lost the Karstarks and three more hostages. This was in exchange for Arya and Sansa who the Lannisters no longer even had by the time Jaime got back

These are all impressions many readers get, and ones that are hard to avoid without some making some insane excuses. But you'll probably still be accused of being a hater and a sexist.

[Le Cygne]

Cat becoming LS is delicious. As LS, she has nothing holding her back from the vengeance she clamped down on in life.

Lately I've been wanting to see her dispense with Littlefinger. It just seems so perfect somehow, the story coming full circle.

[RainGhost]

These are all impressions many readers get, and ones that are hard to avoid without some making some insane excuses. But you'll probably still be accused of being a hater and a sexist.

Catelyn trusting her sister is an insane excuse?

[Chebyshov]

Lately I've been wanting to see her dispense with Littlefinger. It just seems so perfect somehow, the story coming full circle.

That'll probably be reserved for the maid with purple serpents in her hair, but I wouldn't mind this either.

[Jasta11]

Goddamnit, if you'd included "Was cruel to Jon", I'd have gotten a bingo.

You forget how she personally forced Tywin to attack the Riverlands.

Cat was basically the only person loyal to Robb, save maybe the Blackfish, who had a clear picture of what was happening. She made some mistakes due to a wide variety of factors, including misinformation and grief, but Robb sure as hell didn't need her to lose. He torpedo'ed his own campaign just fine.

[Winter's Knight]

You forget how she personally forced Tywin to attack the Riverlands.

Cat was basically the only person loyal to Robb, save maybe the Blackfish, who had a clear picture of what was happening. She made some mistakes due to a wide variety of factors, including misinformation and grief, but Robb sure as hell didn't need her to lose. He torpedo'ed his own campaign just fine.

Have you noticed how much better the series would be if everyone just listened to their mothers?

Joanna: Don't fuck your sibling.

Cat: Don't trust Theon and honour your engagement.

Cersei: Send Ned to the Wall.

Like, seriously.

Lately I've been wanting to see her dispense with Littlefinger. It just seems so perfect somehow, the story coming full circle.

Oh.

*adds to list of stuff that must happen* After she gets him to admit that he killed her sister as well as her husband.

[Knight Owl]

Looking back, I can't believe how wrong Cat was about just about everything. I'm not saying all of these are her fault, some are very understandable and she just trusted the wrong people, but there is a pattern

1) She was tricked into thinking Jon Arryn was murdered by the Lannisters by her sister

2) She knew that Ned was unlikely to return to King's Landing (Symbolism of direwolf killed by stag at very beginning) but urged him to go anyway

3) She told Ned to trust sweet little Petyr Baelish, and didn't that turn out rosy

4) She kidnapped Tyrion even though he had nothing to do with Bran's fall, accelerating the start of the Wo5K

5) She let Lysa take Tyrion from her to be executed or released following the trial by combat

6) She was the one who forged the Frey alliance with her terrible negotiating skills (two trueborn marriages for the support of her own bannermen)

7) She persuaded Robb to give command of half of his army to Roose Bolton instead of the Greatjon, who then intentionally killed most of it

8) She released Jaime, Robb's most valuable hostage and simultaneously lost the Karstarks and three more hostages. This was in exchange for Arya and Sansa who the Lannisters no longer even had by the time Jaime got back

:agree: You hit the nail on the head. Her tendency for emotional and rash behavior, combined with some just general head scratching behavior made her a calamity to the Starks. The actions which you listed are great examples of how she cost the Starks dearly.

[Knight Owl]

Goddamnit, if you'd included "Was cruel to Jon", I'd have gotten a bingo.

Haha, exactly. That's the other one I put on my foolish/horrible things Cat has done list.