Catelyn Stark AKA The Detriment

[David Selig]

I'd agree if it was an elaborate steel dagger. But Valyrian Steel is priceless in the series. None would pay to the Westerosi equivalent of a hobo with it if they had plenty of gold handy. The silver itself was payment enough.

Valyrian swords are priceless. Valyrian daggers are no big deal for a high noble, especially a Lannister.

[LordStoneheart]

Errr... here's the text

Try reading it.

The chapter ends and we don't see her thoughts and whether or not she immediately agrees. It's later when Ned considers that the Lannister did it that we know for sure they suspect it. And it's not like they were very far off. Joffrey did it because of what Robert said to Cersei. "Who sends an assassin with his own blade?" The one who actually sent the blade. And just as LF says next, the aggressor could easily deny that it was lost.

[Minsc]

Cat sailed to King's Landing. Did Cat give a reason why she didn't sail back to White Harbor?

The sea voyage made Ser Rodrick sick

[juanml82]

Try reading it.

The chapter ends and we don't see her thoughts and whether or not she immediately agrees. It's later when Ned considers that the Lannister did it that we know for sure they suspect it. And it's not like they were very far off. Joffrey did it because of what Robert said to Cersei. "Who sends an assassin with his own blade?" The one who actually sent the blade. And just as LF says next, the aggressor could easily deny that it was lost.

You could try reading it yourself instead of telling other people to do it. LF doesn't tell them it was Tyrion. Ned, and very likely Catelyn before him, reach that idiotic conclusion themselves.

[FreeParking]

The sea voyage made Ser Rodrick sick

Really? Considering the dangers they thought they were in that seems like the author wanting to force the Cat and Tyrion meeting.

[Minsc]

Really? Considering the dangers they thought they were in that seems like the author wanting to force the Cat and Tyrion meeting.

I think that is pretty clear

[Jasta11]

You could try reading it yourself instead of telling other people to do it. LF doesn't tell them it was Tyrion. Ned, and very likely Catelyn before him, reach that idiotic conclusion themselves.

So when faced with a proof, they should completely disregard it in case there's a an elaborate super-conspiracy behind it? It's not like they immediately deployed the SWATS (Special Winterfell Anti Tyrion Squad) and declared a manhunt, it made Tyrion a strong potential suspect in the affair, nothing more, and Cat only arrested once she was cornered and it was either arrest him or let the Imp waddle in the Red Keep asking questions about what in hell's name Lady Stark is doing near King's Landing with her most loyal retainer when her son is in a coma.

As for trusting Littlefinger, well then everyone in Westeros is an idiot according to you since everyone trusted Littlefinger, hell the Lannisters trusted him with not one, but two crucial diplomatic missions, as well as all their financial accounts after he proved himself a traitor to Tyrion. That's way bigger than taking his words about what dagger belongs to whom.

[LordStoneheart]

You could try reading it yourself instead of telling other people to do it. LF doesn't tell them it was Tyrion. Ned, and very likely Catelyn before him, reach that idiotic conclusion themselves.

And what the f**k reason do you think Littlefinger gave Tyrion's name as the suspect when he at this point already implicated the Lannisters in the murder of Jon Arryn via Lysa when he was the culprit? Was it just for shits and giggles? No. it was to implicate Tyrion directly. Littlefinger doesn't need to say "It's Tyrion's and he most likely sent the dagger." By mentioning Tyrion at all that is telling them it was Tyrion. Further evidence by the fact that he rolls with this story and hints at further Lannister involvement.

But none of this matters because you're the guy that's obsessed with semantics and winning, so I'll let it rest.

[Archmaester Drew]

...And why did Catelyn leave Winterfell? Sure, she couldn't send a raven, but she should have just sent Ser Rodrik... ;)

[the trees have eyes]

You could try reading it yourself instead of telling other people to do it. LF doesn't tell them it was Tyrion. Ned, and very likely Catelyn before him, reach that idiotic conclusion themselves.

Well, don't take it in isolation.

1. Lysa writes to Catelyn in a secret childhood script saying that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn.

2. Bran suffers a crippling injury and while Catelyn is watching over him an assassin comes to kill him. Plausible deductions are made:

a) the assassin must have been sent to keep Bran quiet (incorrect - Jofffrey acting out of a mixture of callous indifference, petty malice and a desire for Robert's approval and without the knowledge of Jaime / Cersei or Tyrion) and

b) Bran may have discovered a secret that led to Jaime throwing him out of the window (correct deduction but secret unknown).

3. A childhood friend raised as her foster brother offers to help her find Bran's killer and implicates tyrion as the owner of the blade.

It all fits together neatly. The Lannisters are acting as a unit to keep hidden whatever diabolical secret or plan Bran stumbled across.

That both Lysa and Littlefinger are lying from the very start is no something that it is reasonable for the reader to suspect, or Catelyn or Ned for that matter.

[stateofdissipation]

...And why did Catelyn leave Winterfell? Sure, she couldn't send a raven, but she should have just sent Ser Rodrik... ;)

Let us please not nit pick... or pick nits..

Cat is a creature of very little brain and very high energy... If a mouse runs across the floor, Cat chases it. Cat found a mouse and chased it. She was having fun...

--Far better than hanging around a boy in a coma's room wailing about how the boy is going to die any moment or attempting to control visitors. She really was not doing any good in Winterfell. again not to pick nits... though the wailing did remind me of another Cat description...

If you really hate Cat that much... just put on the Benny Hill theme song and run through her scenes at 3x speed. After that it is hard to blame her for anything...

She is a sad strange little person and she has my pity.

When I was a kid... I had a dog and my sister had a cat... the cat had kittens. As a precaution we put the cat in her own room with her kittens... the room had everything she would possibly need.

The cat moved her kittens to a bedroom closet. I discovered this when I found my dog chewing on the corpse of one of the kittens. I found the kittens and moved them to a safe location. The mommy cat brought them back to the closet but I found them before the dog. Then I closed the cat's room off completely so the mommy cat could not leave. My sisters cat and GRRM's Cat only managed to lose one kitten. It is really hard to blame either one.... just because a cat does not have the sense to know what is safe or dangerous does not make it a bad cat or a bad mother.

Give a Cat a break... you can't really expect that much from them.

---By the by the question is completely unfair because we know that all she really accomplished was to deliver the dagger and talk to Ned... she could not possibly have known Ned would pat her on the head and send her home. Hopefully he scratched behind her ears and under her chin before he put her back outside.

[the trees have eyes]

...And why did Catelyn leave Winterfell? Sure, she couldn't send a raven, but she should have just sent Ser Rodrik... ;)

IIRC it is because she knows that if someone is to accuse the Queen's family it has to be her: Rodrik is a master of arms and nowhere near senior enough to levy that kind of charge. As a Tully and wife to the Lord of Winterfell / Warden of the North & Hand of the King she has the social and political weight. "There is no one else" is her thought in her POV when she decides this.

[Archmaester Drew]

Let us please not nit pick... or pick nits..

Cat is a creature of very little brain and very high energy... If a mouse runs across the floor, Cat chases it. Cat found a mouse and chased it. She was having fun...

--Far better than hanging around a boy in a coma's room wailing about how the boy is going to die any moment or attempting to control visitors. She really was not doing any good in Winterfell. again not to pick nits... though the wailing did remind me of another Cat description...

If you really hate Cat that much... just put on the Benny Hill theme song and run through her scenes at 3x speed. After that it is hard to blame her for anything...

She is a sad strange little person and she has my pity.

Nowhere have I said I hated Catelyn -- in fact I said I liked her, but her chapters are painful to read! I just think she made some bad choices that had some major consequences. But really, it's like a jenga tower waiting to topple, it was unfortunately her turn... ;)

[juanml82]

So when faced with a proof, they should completely disregard it in case there's a an elaborate super-conspiracy behind it? It's not like they immediately deployed the SWATS (Special Winterfell Anti Tyrion Squad) and declared a manhunt, it made Tyrion a strong potential suspect in the affair, nothing more, and Cat only arrested once she was cornered and it was either arrest him or let the Imp waddle in the Red Keep asking questions about what in hell's name Lady Stark is doing near King's Landing with her most loyal retainer when her son is in a coma.

As for trusting Littlefinger, well then everyone in Westeros is an idiot according to you since everyone trusted Littlefinger, hell the Lannisters trusted him with not one, but two crucial diplomatic missions, as well as all their financial accounts after he proved himself a traitor to Tyrion. That's way bigger than taking his words about what dagger belongs to whom.

The thing is, it's not really proof that it's Tyrion, at all. It actually works the other way around because Tyrion, filthy rich as he is, can simply pay in gold if all he wanted was to murder Bran.

And what the f**k reason do you think Littlefinger gave Tyrion's name as the suspect when he at this point already implicated the Lannisters in the murder of Jon Arryn via Lysa when he was the culprit? Was it just for shits and giggles? No. it was to implicate Tyrion directly. Littlefinger doesn't need to say "It's Tyrion's and he most likely sent the dagger." By mentioning Tyrion at all that is telling them it was Tyrion. Further evidence by the fact that he rolls with this story and hints at further Lannister involvement.

But none of this matters because you're the guy that's obsessed with semantics and winning, so I'll let it rest.

This isn't "semantics and winning". I said Catelyn reached a very wrong conclusion and I'm answered - in a very rude way - to go read the books. Well, guess what? The books specifically say what I said they say. No "semantics", no "winning". So go read the books yourself.

Well, don't take it in isolation.

1. Lysa writes to Catelyn in a secret childhood script saying that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn.

2. Bran suffers a crippling injury and while Catelyn is watching over him an assassin comes to kill him. Plausible deductions are made:

a) the assassin must have been sent to keep Bran quiet (incorrect - Jofffrey acting out of a mixture of callous indifference, petty malice and a desire for Robert's approval and without the knowledge of Jaime / Cersei or Tyrion) and

B) Bran may have discovered a secret that led to Jaime throwing him out of the window (correct deduction but secret unknown).

3. A childhood friend raised as her foster brother offers to help her find Bran's killer and implicates tyrion as the owner of the blade.

It all fits together neatly. The Lannisters are acting as a unit to keep hidden whatever diabolical secret or plan Bran stumbled across.

That both Lysa and Littlefinger are lying from the very start is no something that it is reasonable for the reader to suspect, or Catelyn or Ned for that matter.

Yes, and Catelyn isn't going to think Lysa is lying to her so she can get all the Tullys and Starks killed. However, the way Tyrion is framed is weird. Catelyn begins to recognize as much when Tyrion asks her why would he pay with his own dagger. So Catelyn conclusion back when talking with LF should have caused her to think something was amiss.

[Archmaester Drew]

IIRC it is because she knows that if someone is to accuse the Queen's family it has to be her: Rodrik is a master of arms and nowhere near senior enough to levy that kind of charge. As a Tully and wife to the Lord of Winterfell / Warden of the North & Hand of the King she has the social and political weight. "There is no one else" is her thought in her POV when she decides this.

Rodrik could just talk to Ned (THE HAND) when he got there -- I sure Ned would believe him... ;)

[the trees have eyes]

Rodrik could just talk to Ned (THE HAND) when he got there -- I sure Ned would believe him... ;)

Rodrik could have said anything he was told to say. And therein lies the problem. He would be dismissed as a pawn launching false accusations against the Queen's family for political motives. His testimony would be heresay and supposition.

But Lady Stark, nee Tully, can't be dismissed that way and when she gets up with those deep wounds in her palms (like she did in the Crossroads Inn) and recounts how she fought an assassin who came to kill her son I guarantee she is going to get people's attention.

[Lykos]

...And why did Catelyn leave Winterfell? Sure, she couldn't send a raven, but she should have just sent Ser Rodrik... ;)

Her hands were the only solid evidence they had that the dagger was actually used.

Of course she could have just given them to Sir Rodrik, as she surely had little use for them with that little brain of hers.

[stateofdissipation]

Nowhere have I said I hated Catelyn -- in fact I said I liked her, but her chapters are painful to read! I just think she made some bad choices that had some major consequences. But really, it's like a jenga tower waiting to topple, it was unfortunately her turn... ;)

Catelyn is kind of like Mr Magoo... but without good luck... I once thought of her as painful to read... only thing you can really do i try to guess which way it is going to fall and who it is going to crush to death. I now kind of view her like a cat on the interstate.... she isn't going to make it across but I cant help watching what happens.

There are some freaking awesome hints in Cat's chapters... great clues of what happened and what will happen. The thing is she puts them together all wrong and confuses facts with her conclusions. figuring out what is real and what is Cat... whew.. harder than Chinese algebra.

[the trees have eyes]

The thing is, it's not really proof that it's Tyrion, at all. It actually works the other way around because Tyrion, filthy rich as he is, can simply pay in gold if all he wanted was to murder Bran.

This isn't "semantics and winning". I said Catelyn reached a very wrong conclusion and I'm answered - in a very rude way - to go read the books. Well, guess what? The books specifically say what I said they say. No "semantics", no "winning". So go read the books yourself.

Yes, and Catelyn isn't going to think Lysa is lying to her so she can get all the Tullys and Starks killed. However, the way Tyrion is framed is weird. Catelyn begins to recognize as much when Tyrion asks her why would he pay with his own dagger. So Catelyn conclusion back when talking with LF should have caused her to think something was amiss.

Why? The only reason to question it is if she doubts LF but she cannot be expected to believe he would casually lie about an attempt on her son's life just to sow chaos in the realm that he might profit from. That is too much of a suspicion to harbour. No one thinks this is a Bond villain at this stage of the story, that only becomes clear later.

The story that it is Tyrion's dagger looks like the smoking gun she is searching for and it fits with the lie she was told at the start of AGOT and what she has correctly deduced about Bran's fall.

I would add that she did not plan to arrest Tyrion based on this but that the chance meeting at the Crossroads Inn forced her hand (I think the Catnapping thread covers that amply so I don't intend to rehash it). And that she does reconsider when Tyrion protests his innocence and accuses Littlefinger of lying. But I don't see why she would challenge Petyr's lie initially.

[Lykos]

<snip> The thing is she puts them together all wrong and confuses facts with her conclusions. figuring out what is real and what is Cat... whew.. harder than Chinese algebra.

I completely disagree, very strongly!