Dornish Debates II: Of Orphans and Inheritance

[Wmarshal]

Both the Targaryens and King Robert had a Royal Navy. The Redwynes, Lannisters, and Manderlys have navies. And, there's the Iron Fleet.

Yet the Dornish, who pretty much live in the invested pirate land, have no ships, even though their all their neighbors do.

[HexMachina]

Yet the Dornish, who pretty much live in the invested pirate land, have no ships, even though their all their neighbors do.

Maybe it has something to do with Daeron I. Dont know, just speculating

[Winter's Knight]

Going back to language: why is there a Common Tongue to begin with? They were seven different kingdoms until three hundred years ago!

The Northern Clans should be unintelligble to the Starks, forget Stannis Baratheon-I mean, in the UK alone, the Welsh were refusing to use English in Henry VIII's reign and Scottish Highlanders had a different language from the Lowlands.

Dorne should have it's own language, and not just a hard accent.

[Wmarshal]

Going back to language: why is there a Common Tongue to begin with? They were seven different kingdoms until three hundred years ago!

The Northern Clans should be unintelligble to the Starks, forget Stannis Baratheon-I mean, in the UK alone, the Welsh were refusing to use English in Henry VIII's reign and Scottish Highlanders had a different language from the Lowlands.

Dorne should have it's own language, and not just a hard accent.

Because easier for writing, alot of time would have to be put in dealing with language barriers.

[Chebyshov]

Going back to language: why is there a Common Tongue to begin with? They were seven different kingdoms until three hundred years ago!

The Northern Clans should be unintelligble to the Starks, forget Stannis Baratheon-I mean, in the UK alone, the Welsh were refusing to use English in Henry VIII's reign and Scottish Highlanders had a different language from the Lowlands.

Dorne should have it's own language, and not just a hard accent.

Well, the "native" Westerosi language is the Old Tongue, right? And then the Andals brought over the Common Tongue and then dominated the land. The language of the Rhyonar seems to have disappeared entirely, but the accent remained somehow. So I guess the Rhoynar learned the Common Tongue when they got to Dorne and taught their kids it as well until their native language faded, though their own pronunciation became a regional dialect.

It really does seem implausible; hell, the tiny school district bordering me where I grew up has close to 1,000 LEP students speaking over 70 languages. And it's not like PA is known for an incredibly amount of diversity. But as WMarshal suggests, it simplifies so much in the writing.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yet the Dornish, who pretty much live in the invested pirate land, have no ships, even though their all their neighbors do.

They do have some. Just like the Lannisters or the Stormlords or the Arryns. It's just not big and not centrally organized. A wargalley or three and a handful of longships per coastal Lord, enough to deal with pirates close by.

[Minstral]

Going back to language: why is there a Common Tongue to begin with? They were seven different kingdoms until three hundred years ago!

The Northern Clans should be unintelligble to the Starks, forget Stannis Baratheon-I mean, in the UK alone, the Welsh were refusing to use English in Henry VIII's reign and Scottish Highlanders had a different language from the Lowlands.

Dorne should have it's own language, and not just a hard accent.

I'm guessing that the spread of the Maesters had something to do with the spread of this language. It's the only way I really reconcile the way the North speaks the same language and utilizes some of the same cultural practices of the Andals.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Westerosi languages are just insane. The North alone should have about eight languages.

But magic.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

I'm guessing that the spread of the Maesters had something to do with the spread of this language. It's the only way I really reconcile the way the North speaks the same language and utilizes some of the same cultural practices of the Andals.

Still impossible. Howland Reed, a crannogman, is capable of understanding what a squire of a Crownlander House is saying. Really?

[Minstral]

Still impossible. Howland Reed, a crannogman, is capable of understanding what a squire of a Crownlander House is saying. Really?

What of it? The spread of the Maesters happened before the continent was conquered by the Targs, which means there is more than 300 years of possible language development. It is not an out of this world notion that the head of House Reed, whom would have to interact with his king/sworn lord in these centuries, would learn or adapt to new languages. Let us put it this way. How is it possible that the only kingdom of the First men that did not fall would later lose it's old language, the Old Tongue, to a new language, the Common Tongue? Why is it that the people of Skaagos seemingly have older customs that were more indicative to the way the first men lived while the rest of the North has changed? What was the underlying reason that they changed?

[Ingelheim]

What of it? The spread of the Maesters happened before the continent was conquered by the Targs, which means there is more than 300 years of possible language development. It is not an out of this world notion that the head of House Reed, whom would have to interact with his king/sworn lord in these centuries, would learn or adapt to new languages. Let us put it this way. How is it possible that the only kingdom of the First men that did not fall would later lose it's old language, the Old Tongue, to a new language, the Common Tongue? Why is it that the people of Skaagos seemingly have older customs that were more indicative to the way the first men lived while the rest of the North has changed? What was the underlying reason that they changed?

That's exactly what we are saying.

Hell, in my own country there are 4 official languages and it's 5 or 6 times smaller than the North. And this is 2014.

[Julia Martell]

Don't you love fantasy? Magic man did it!

The maesters are only a partial explanation. Their being able to communicate with each other is not surprising, since they're all special educated. It's like the old Imperial Chinese Civil Service. It's basically responsible for the development of the language we now call Standard Mandarin. However, most civil servants actually spoke three languages; standard Mandarin, their own local language and the local language of the district they were assigned to.

It's not a stretch to believe that Lord Stark and Lord Tyrell can speak to each other, just that their washerwomen can.

(In other news, I passed the written portion of my exam, and now I have to do the oral interview. You pray to The Crone for academic success, right?)

[Minstral]

That's exactly what we are saying.

Hell, in my own country there are 4 official languages and it's 5 or 6 times smaller than the North. And this is 2014.

Which may perhaps be explained by the spread Maesters. They have an interest of streamlining the nobility of Westeros to become more susceptible to their influence, "education" is a means that this could be achieved. Some of the Maesters that have been sent to the North turn out to be southern nobles, family members from houses that were unable to conquer the North or Dorne but perhaps want to see the two regions "civilized" (adopt their culture). The ancestors of Stark of and Nymeria originally had their own language, but their descendants would one day be taught by Maesters of the Citadel. In a way, it opens floodgates for what languages develop in the region.

Either way, the Reeds could be bilingual for all we know with their own language. But the Neck is also the most likely region to have come under the influence of the Andals when they went about trying to conquer the North or offer their trade via the Riverlands. We know that Scotland had its own language (or series of languages, I am not the most certain) and yet a sizable portion of the kingdom eventually spoke a tongue that was foreign to their predecessors.

[Chebyshov]

@Julia, May the Crone bring you wisdom and lead you towards success

May the Father bring you a fair and just judgement

May the Mother stay your nerves through such a stressful time

May the Smith see your hard work pays off

May the Warrior bring you "victory" and [mental] strength

I'm not sure how the Maiden's gonna help here, but she'll keep you pure of spirit? Uhh.

This is complicated. Pray to the Mother Rhyone or that lesser Turtle God. Much simpler.

ETA:

Aren't Maesters also the town doctors? So I guess the commoners might "need" the common tongue for that?

[HexMachina]

@Julia, May the Crone bring you wisdom and lead you towards success

May the Father bring you a fair and just judgement

May the Mother stay your nerves through such a stressful time

May the Smith see your hard work pays off

May the Warrior bring you "victory" and [mental] strength

I'm not sure how the Maiden's gonna help here, but she'll keep you pure of spirit? Uhh.

This is complicated. Pray to the Mother Rhyone or that lesser Turtle God. Much simpler.

ETA:

Aren't Maesters also the town doctors? So I guess the commoners might "need" the common tongue for that?

Yes. That is what Pate wanted to do.

[Minstral]

Don't you love fantasy? Magic man did it!

The maesters are only a partial explanation. Their being able to communicate with each other is not surprising, since they're all special educated. It's like the old Imperial Chinese Civil Service. It's basically responsible for the development of the language we now call Standard Mandarin. However, most civil servants actually spoke three languages; standard Mandarin, their own local language and the local language of the district they were assigned to.

It's not a stretch to believe that Lord Stark and Lord Tyrell can speak to each other, just that their washerwomen can.

(In other news, I passes to written portion of my exam, and now I have to do the oral interview. You pray to The Crone for academic success, right?)

How did that quote go again? Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, German to horses.

At any rate. I don't claim to offer the all encompassing knowledge of language development. When I went to school my forte was military history on a variety of time frames. The development of the English language is interesting considering that it was struck down by the Normans and their descendants for centuries, but later embraced as an equal language to French in the Government.

Either way, good luck.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes. That is what Pate wanted to do.

And that's what the Maesters are not. Maesters live in castle of reasonable size and treat predominantly the population of these castles. They aren't barbers, like Pate dreamed to be.

[Ingelheim]

How did that quote go again? Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, German to horses.

At any rate. I don't claim to offer the all encompassing knowledge of language development. When I went to school my forte was military history on a variety of time frames. The development of the English language is interesting considering that it was struck down by the Normans and their descendants for centuries, but later embraced as an equal language to French in the Government.

Either way, good luck.

It was Charles I (or Charles V, depending on your nationality) who said that.

"I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men and German to horses"

[Julia Martell]

How did that quote go again? Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, German to horses.

At any rate. I don't claim to offer the all encompassing knowledge of language development. When I went to school my forte was military history on a variety of time frames. The development of the English language is interesting considering that it was struck down by the Normans and their descendants for centuries, but later embraced as an equal language to French in the Government.

Either way, good luck.

That was Charles V (or Carlos I, depending on your bent vis a vis the Habsburgs)

The language this doesn't make sense, that's really all there is too it. But I have two degrees in linguistics and I'm willing to overlook it because Rule of Good.

@Chebyshov The Maiden and I haven't been on good term in a while. In fact, to tell you the truth, I'm very, very glad the High Sparrow is a fictional character.

ETA: Wow, I've never been ninja'd so perfectly before.

[Minstral]

It was Charles I (or Charles V, depending on your nationality) who said that.

"I speak Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men and German to horses"

Supposedly. The quote was attributed to him long after he died.

Edit: It seemed to be a good representation to the Mandarin example.