Dornish Debates II: Of Orphans and Inheritance

[Dornish Vinegar]

(In other news, I passed the written portion of my exam, and now I have to do the oral interview. You pray to The Crone for academic success, right?)

Good luck good luck! No idea what this is for but given what you said yesterday I have my fingers crossed for you!

@Julia, May the Crone bring you wisdom and lead you towards success

May the Father bring you a fair and just judgement

May the Mother stay your nerves through such a stressful time

May the Smith see your hard work pays off

May the Warrior bring you "victory" and [mental] strength

I'm not sure how the Maiden's gonna help here, but she'll keep you pure of spirit? Uhh.

This is complicated. Pray to the Mother Rhyone or that lesser Turtle God. Much simpler.

ETA:

Aren't Maesters also the town doctors? So I guess the commoners might "need" the common tongue for that?

When in doubt, always pray to the Mother Rhoyne.

So is the general consensus that Nymeria's arrival only brought with in a change in the nobility and not so much an overhaul of the population of Dorne? I always assumed it was the latter, actually, just because the rest of Westeros clearly treats the Dornish as separate from their Andal and First Men selves. I mean, obviously the Dornish have some First Men and Andal in them too, but they look different than the rest of Westeros, and that it seems to me would require a lot more intermingling and sexy times between the Rhoynar and the population of Dorne that was already there than interchange merely with the existing nobility would allow.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

So is the general consensus that Nymeria's arrival only brought with in a change in the nobility and not so much an overhaul of the population of Dorne? I always assumed it was the latter, actually, just because the rest of Westeros clearly treats the Dornish as separate from their Andal and First Men selves. I mean, obviously the Dornish have some First Men and Andal in them too, but they look different than the rest of Westeros, and that it seems to me would require a lot more intermingling and sexy times between the Rhoynar and the population of Dorne that was already there than interchange merely with the existing nobility would allow.

That isn't a genetic difference, just a good, solid tan.

[Julia Martell]

Good luck good luck! No idea what this is for but given what you said yesterday I have my fingers crossed for you!

When in doubt, always pray to the Mother Rhoyne.

So is the general consensus that Nymeria's arrival only brought with in a change in the nobility and not so much an overhaul of the population of Dorne? I always assumed it was the latter, actually, just because the rest of Westeros clearly treats the Dornish as separate from their Andal and First Men selves. I mean, obviously the Dornish have some First Men and Andal in them too, but they look different than the rest of Westeros, and that it seems to me would require a lot more intermingling and sexy times between the Rhoynar and the population of Dorne that was already there than interchange merely with the existing nobility would allow.

The exam is so I can teach French to impressionable children. :-)

I don't know how much sex times are required to change the "look" of a population. Rhoynar features have the advantage of being very dominate, I think, dark skin, dark hair, and the like. (Widow's peaks are also dominate if I remember grade 11 Biology correctly.)

[Ingelheim]

The exam is so I can teach French to impressionable children. :-)

I don't know how much sex times are required to change the "look" of a population. Rhoynar features have the advantage of being very dominate, I think, dark skin, dark hair, and the like. (Widow's peaks are also dominate if I remember grade 11 Biology correctly.)

From a Spanish...a few centuries would always help.

[Julia Martell]

From a Spanish...a few centuries would always help.

They've had a thousand years, at this point. And time for a good tan too.

[Dornish Vinegar]

The exam is so I can teach French to impressionable children. :-)

I don't know how much sex times are required to change the "look" of a population. Rhoynar features have the advantage of being very dominate, I think, dark skin, dark hair, and the like. (Widow's peaks are also dominate if I remember grade 11 Biology correctly.)

Ahh, very cool very cool! I hope it works out. Got to mold those little minds :thumbsup:

But yep, those are good calls. That, combined with what Ingelheim and you said above, is a good thing to keep in mind. There's been a lot of time to mix up the genes. So maybe not a total population overhaul after the landing, but something a little more than just an injection into the aristocracy I would say. Though a thousand years is a long-ass time.

That isn't a genetic difference, just a good, solid tan.

Is that how you read it? I always read it as the Rhoynar having just a baseline darker skin than the Andals or the First Men.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Is that how you read it? I always read it as the Rhoynar having just a baseline darker skin than the Andals or the First Men.

Mostly. Remember that the Sandy Dornishmen are the darkest while the Salty Dornishmen, the ones most affected by the Rhoynar, are actually in the middle? The difference is the sun.

[SeanF]

I suppose the common tongue could be like Latin, which almost every educated European spoke in the 16th and 17th centuries.

[Ingelheim]

I suppose the common tongue could be like Latin, which almost every educated European spoke in the 16th and 17th centuries.

That's they key. Educated.

[Tyene's Double Daggers]

Hello. This thread was recommended to me. I hope my sexy blades are a useful addition. I've been catching up on this, but on page 10 this jumped out at me: "If Varys had his little birds listening, Oberyn was giving them a ripe earful."

Apologies if this was mentioned in your "dornish debates i," but whatare the odds that Oberyn wanted Varys to hear about the plot to crown Myrcella. And if he said this for other ears, how does that help Dorne?

[Dornish Vinegar]

Hello. This thread was recommended to me. I hope my sexy blades are a useful addition. I've been catching up on this, but on page 10 this jumped out at me: "If Varys had his little birds listening, Oberyn was giving them a ripe earful."

Apologies if this was mentioned in your "dornish debates i," but whatare the odds that Oberyn wanted Varys to hear about the plot to crown Myrcella. And if he said this for other ears, how does that help Dorne?

Awwwwww yissssss TDD good to see you here! There's actually a really good short thread on this topic that I believe Jon Con's Red Beard made a while back, I'll try to dig it up for you. It's a really cool take on a really minor detail that was often overlooked in the past, imo.

(But yeah there's a lot to read through here, don't feel pressured to read through all of it! I can't speak for my learned colleagues but I know I love discussing things again, it doesn't bother me!)

ETA ninja'd by my learned colleague Cheb vvvv

[Chebyshov]

I'm driving, so can't post full thoughts yet, but here's the post DV was talking about: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117073-someone-told-someone-always-tells/

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Awwwwww yissssss TDD good to see you here! There's actually a really good short thread on this topic that I believe Jon Con's Red Beard made a while back, I'll try to dig it up for you. It's a really cool take on a really minor detail that was often overlooked in the past, imo.

(But yeah there's a lot to read through here, don't feel pressured to read through all of it! I can't speak for my learned colleagues but I know I love discussing things again, it doesn't bother me!)

Same here! :D

[Dornish Vinegar]

Gah, so i just read JCRB's OP on that thread again, and man oh man is it great. It works with what we know about Doran and Oberyn's relationship, it works with what we know about Arianne and Tyene's relationship, it works with how we know Doran likes to operate--it's just tight all around, imo.

The only thing that I don't like about it is that it's difficult to reconcile that with my pet theory that the plan was to send Oberyn to Daenerys up until he got killed in King's Landing, and that Quentyn was arranged as a hasty improvisation after that happened. It works in the timeline (there's about a month and a half between news of Oberyn's death arriving in Sunspear and us meeting Quentyn in Volantis), but since we don't get an impression of how long Quentyn's mission was being planned, it's difficult to know if it was actually an improv or if it was always Quent that was gonna go. I suppose it's possible that Oberyn could lay some distraction down in KL if he was anticipating going back out to Essos for Dany, but the particular lies he's telling about crowning Myrcella might have brought a lot of attention to himself if/when he ever left KL to go back to Dorne, thus putting his mission out to Dany in jeopardy. Of course, Doran could made some feints to bring attention to himself, in that case, but still, I think Oberyn's absence in Sunspear would have been noted by Varys' Darkstar or other little birds.

That bit of not liking it is more based on my not wanting to give up on something I want to be true than on JCRB's work not holding water, though :frown5:

[Chebyshov]

Gah, so i just read JCRB's OP on that thread again, and man oh man is it great. It works with what we know about Doran and Oberyn's relationship, it works with what we know about Arianne and Tyene's relationship, it works with how we know Doran likes to operate--it's just tight all around, imo.

The only thing that I don't like about it is that it's difficult to reconcile that with my pet theory that the plan was to send Oberyn to Daenerys up until he got killed in King's Landing, and that Quentyn was arranged as a hasty improvisation after that happened. It works in the timeline (there's about a month and a half between news of Oberyn's death arriving in Sunspear and us meeting Quentyn in Volantis), but since we don't get an impression of how long Quentyn's mission was being planned, it's difficult to know if it was actually an improv or if it was always Quent that was gonna go. I suppose it's possible that Oberyn could lay some distraction down in KL if he was anticipating going back out to Essos for Dany, but the particular lies he's telling about crowning Myrcella might have brought a lot of attention to himself if/when he ever left KL to go back to Dorne, thus putting his mission out to Dany in jeopardy. Of course, Doran could made some feints to bring attention to himself, in that case, but still, I think Oberyn's absence in Sunspear would have been noted by Varys' Darkstar or other little birds.

That bit of not liking it is more based on my not wanting to give up on something I want to be true than on JCRB's work not holding water, though :frown5:

Wellll, not to throw too big a wrench into your theory, but Quentyn & Co. were in Volantis for 20 days already when we first meet up with him. Subtract time for them to get there (and lose half their crew), plus we know Doran summoned him to the Water Gardens for a mission briefing...it just makes the timeline a bit tight for Oberyn to have been Plan A, even if he was to board a ship the day after fighting The Mountain. But it is a way better plan ;) .

I think Oberyn wanted to crown Myrcella himself (hence his convo with Tyene, saying Tyrion sent them "a gift"), but surely Doran explained to him that Dorne alone would not be enough to pull that off. But giving the "little birds" an earful about a potential (albiet far-fetched) Westerlands-Dorne-North alliance through Tyrion and starting another rebellion seems like an utterly terrible idea, unless Oberyn:

a. didn't know *or care* about Varys's birds

b. thought that maybe Varys would welcome a new contender to the throne and could aid them, which IMO is quite the risk, and one that's unlikely.

It's also complicated, because as Tyrion points out, Cersei backing Myrcella helps her own claim, especially had Tyrion been found innocent. So maybe Oberyn thought Cersei's spies might be overhearing? But they hate the Lannisters, so scratch that. GAH.

Good gods, I found Varys confusing enough, but intrigue with both Varys and Doran? Where's TWOW already :read:

[Good Guy Garlan]

I think Oberyn wanted to crown Myrcella himself (hence his convo with Tyene, saying Tyrion sent them "a gift"), but surely Doran explained to him that Dorne alone would not be enough to pull that off.

Well, Myrcella is a nice "gift" for the Martells, even without her crown, because she's in line to inherit both Casterly Rock and Storm's End. In an ideal world, Dany accepts Quentyn proposal, wages war against Tommen, and then Trystane becomes lord of one of the two greatest castles in the realm, which is not too shabby

[Chebyshov]

Well, Myrcella is a nice "gift" for the Martells, even without her crown, because she's in line to inherit both Casterly Rock and Storm's End. In an ideal world, Dany accepts Quentyn proposal, wages war against Tommen, and then Trystane becomes lord of one of the two greatest castles in the realm, which is not too shabby

Not untrue, but the context in which Tyene said it (doesn't use the word gift...whoops) seems explicitly about crowning her:

“Oh, but they must, or see the realm riven once more, as it was before we wed the dragons. Father told me so. He said we had the Imp to thank, for sending us Princess Myrcella."

[Dornish Vinegar]

Wellll, not to throw too big a wrench into your theory, but Quentyn & Co. were in Volantis for 20 days already when we first meet up with him. Subtract time for them to get there (and lose half their crew), plus we know Doran summoned him to the Water Gardens for a mission briefing...it just makes the timeline a bit tight for Oberyn to have been Plan A, even if he was to board a ship the day after fighting The Mountain. But it is a way better plan ;) .

I think Oberyn wanted to crown Myrcella himself (hence his convo with Tyene, saying Tyrion sent them "a gift"), but surely Doran explained to him that Dorne alone would not be enough to pull that off. But giving the "little birds" an earful about a potential (albiet far-fetched) Westerlands-Dorne-North alliance through Tyrion and starting another rebellion seems like an utterly terrible idea, unless Oberyn:

a. didn't know *or care* about Varys's birds

b. thought that maybe Varys would welcome a new contender to the throne and could aid them, which IMO is quite the risk, and one that's unlikely.

It's also complicated, because as Tyrion points out, Cersei backing Myrcella helps her own claim, especially had Tyrion been found innocent. So maybe Oberyn thought Cersei's spies might be overhearing? But they hate the Lannisters, so scratch that. GAH.

Good gods, I found Varys confusing enough, but intrigue with both Varys and Doran? Where's TWOW already :read:

Ugh yeah, you're right, the timeline doesn't show up with Quentyn until after those 20 days have passed. That makes it suuuuuuuuper tight, especially with the mission briefing and the trouble crossing the Narrow Sea like you said, and especially with the collaboration that seems (I still don't trust them but that's neither here nor there :P) to have taken place with the Yronwoods. Damn! Tryna give you the benefit of a doubt, Doran, I really am.

But yep, combining Varyses and Illyrios with Dorans and Oberyns and Aegons and Viseryses and Daeneryses is the most mind-bending thing to tackle as far as theories are concerned. It's a brain workout.

[Tyene's Double Daggers]

That theory was an interesting read, though I'm confused by it a little. So it's saying:

1. Joffrey's death is the catalyst for Doran to send Quentyn to Daenerys
   
2. Oberyn knows Quetyn is going to be leaving and wants to get any spies in Dorne to focus on something else
   
3. Oberyn tells Tyrion about his plan to crown Myrcella and openly war against Lannisters in hopes someone will overhear and focus the spies' energies in Dorne away from the ships leaving the ports
   
4. Yours truly is told about the plan, but either her sisters aren't or they don't like that method of vengenace
   
5. Oberyn dies, woops!
   
6. Sand Snakes all suggest different ideas to Doran about how to respond, get locked up.
   
7. Doran knows this will spur Arianne into action because of her loyalty to them. I mean us. And Doran also turns up the heat by telling Aerys he's taking Myrcella away
   
8. Doran allows the plan to crown Myrcella to begin
   
9. Doran then sends Hotah to stop the plan
   
10. Darkstar goes rogue? Accidentally almost begins a war
    
11. Arianne gets imprisoned, learns she shouldn't trust anyone she trusts, even though no one betrayed her
    
12. Quentyn's by this point safely near Slavers Bay
    

I guess the only part that I am confused by is why Doran let it go through for only one day, and then sent his own man to stop it. Like, he wanted the spies to get enough of a taste to be hooked on the intrigue, but not actually start a war? I don't see why allowing Arianne to set out was a good idea, unless teaching her an uneeded lesson was part of it too.

Please let me know if I'm missing anything!

[JonCon's Red Beard]

s'ap dornish bitches.

Gah, so i just read JCRB's OP on that thread again, and man oh man is it great. It works with what we know about Doran and Oberyn's relationship, it works with what we know about Arianne and Tyene's relationship, it works with how we know Doran likes to operate--it's just tight all around, imo.

The only thing that I don't like about it is that it's difficult to reconcile that with my pet theory that the plan was to send Oberyn to Daenerys up until he got killed in King's Landing, and that Quentyn was arranged as a hasty improvisation after that happened. It works in the timeline (there's about a month and a half between news of Oberyn's death arriving in Sunspear and us meeting Quentyn in Volantis), but since we don't get an impression of how long Quentyn's mission was being planned, it's difficult to know if it was actually an improv or if it was always Quent that was gonna go. I suppose it's possible that Oberyn could lay some distraction down in KL if he was anticipating going back out to Essos for Dany, but the particular lies he's telling about crowning Myrcella might have brought a lot of attention to himself if/when he ever left KL to go back to Dorne, thus putting his mission out to Dany in jeopardy. Of course, Doran could made some feints to bring attention to himself, in that case, but still, I think Oberyn's absence in Sunspear would have been noted by Varys' Darkstar or other little birds.

That bit of not liking it is more based on my not wanting to give up on something I want to be true than on JCRB's work not holding water, though :frown5:

I think the main problem with any Dornish theory (or any other theory too) is that we don't know how much Doran knows and how much he's pretending. I do believe that he deceives -not lies- Arianne because he needs to. There is a saying "if you want to fool your enemies, fool your friends". If Dorne itself believes Doran to be weak and "too much patient", then KL also believes it.

OTOH, that leaves us, readers, left to wander anything. For instance, I suppose that at some point, Doran found out about Viserys dying. How? Who told him? This is the reason many believe Doran and Varys are working together, and he's just pretending not knowing about Aegon. That personally I doubt. IF it is true, I'd say that Varys has kept Aegon hidden from Doran too. I doubt that too, I don't believe Doran and V working together.

Either way, back to the main point, Doran had to have found out about Viserys dying. Maybe Oberyn has still some contacts back in Essos, and while this person could have lost track of them for years, it was eventually known that Dany was marrying a Dothraki lord. Or maybe he figured out via KL (did they even mention it? Maybe they did off-screen). The thing is that, at some point, the Martells knew Viserys was killed (and they even knew how), and immediately realised Dany was their other option, dragons or not (remember that happened much time after Viserys died).

The news of dragons reached Westeros back at the time of Storm. Before that, Dorne only knew Viserys was dead and Dany was still alive. Around that time, Tyrion also offered Myrcella to them, and a seat in the council for Doran. Here is where we should start: Doran needed two people here: 1. to replace him in the Council (he couldn't go) and 2. to get Dany.

I agree that Oberyn was a better chance to get Dany, but, why I don't believe Oberyn was Doran's first choice? Because Oberyn is a well known man in Westeros and probably, also Essos. There was a small chance of him being seen by anybody and telling KL that the Prince of Dorne was there. A smart man like Varys could have realised he was there in order to fetch Dany. Doran couldn't afford that. Quentyn, otoh, was unknown there. Even in Westeros I suppose. There is more of a chance of Oberyn being recognised in a port than Quentyn. Also, Quentyn couldn't replace Doran's seat. Quentyn is a second son. Oberyn sounds the more logical option, as he's the Prince's brother. Nothing suspicious about it. And he could cause enough distraction for Quentyn to be even more unrecognised.

(hey, finding out who told DOran about VIserys is worthy of a thread as well... or we could discuss it here. I'll try to check AgoT and Clash to see what I can find. But later, now, I'm hungry.)