Dornish Debates II: Of Orphans and Inheritance

[Chebyshov]

Do the Mormont's count? Alysane in particular seems to be not married with kids who are hers. I have no idea about Maege.

Uhhh, it could. But more likely her husband was a commoner or of a lower noble house, so the girls chose to keep her name. I don't think they're bastards so much as we don't know their dad (for Maege's kids). Alysane is just bizarre, but Bear Island is fairly unique in its situation. However, once a She-Bear has a son, I have no doubt they'll go back to the Northern inheritance structure.

My main point was that Dornish society is still patriarchal, even though it's a much better place to be a woman in Westeros than the other kingdoms. The bastardy thing was just a thought I had about how it impacts their laws explicitly.

[Julia Martell]

In fact, if you want to see the legal patriarchy of Dorne, look no further than its recognized bastards. All the bastards we meet (Daemon, The Sand Snakes, Ellaria) are claimed by their fathers, not mothers. This means the male determines what comprises a family. Is there any case in Westeros when a child with "no father" is claimed as part of the mother's family?

I agree with you, Dorne is definitely still a patriarchal society. But we shouldn't underestimate the diversity of details within patriarcal systems in terms of women's right in various aspects of law and society. Dorne is certainly "less patriarchal" than other parts of Westeros.

As for agricultural societies tending to breed patriarchy, so to speak, this is compacted by the fact that agriculture never developed in Dorne, and the first settlers there brought it with them, so comparing it to Mesopotamia or the Nile Valley in that context maybe inappropriate. The Rhoynar might have depended less on agriculture than those examples, being more sedentary hunter gatherers (think like the Haida) or mixed agricultural and hunter gatherer, and when they showed up in Dorne and transition to a more purely agriculture economy, those social structure had been in place so long they were resistant to change.

And finally, the recognized bastards. I think there might be a selection bias in place here. Even if we assume that a high status woman in Dorne is as likely to have a permanent extramarital relationship (ie. a paramour) as a high status man is, which probably is not the case, I would think that a man in that situation would still be far more likely to have a bastard simple because his reproductive responsibilities vis a vis his family and his marital partner are so less demanding on him.

Say for example, Oberyn and Ellaria decide to have an extramarital child. And you can say "decide" because women in this universe, especially high status ones, can control their reproduction quite easily and reliably. So we can assume these kinds of couples have children together because they want to express their emotional connection to each other in that way. Oberyn can impregnate her one night, and just as easily impregnate his hypothetical wife the next night and fulfill his dynastic obligations as well as his fulfilling his presumably emotional needs with Ellaria.

However, say for example Arianne and her one true love Daemon Sand wanted to have an extramarital child. Arianne would have to take nine mouths out of her life that she could be having a legitimate child with her hypothetical husband, thereby depriving herself of an heir or a spare and also take on the inherent risks of pregnancy and childbirth in this universe with no dynastic pay off. I doubt many women would consider it worth it, at least not until later in life. Hence the much higher portion of recognized bastard born to high born men vs high born women.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

However, say for example Arianne and her one true love Daemon Sand wanted to have an extramarital child. Arianne would have to take nine mouths out of her life that she could be having a legitimate child with her hypothetical husband, thereby depriving herself of an heir or a spare and also take on the inherent risks of pregnancy and childbirth in this universe with no dynastic pay off. I doubt many women would consider it worth it, at least not until later in life. Hence the much higher portion of recognized bastard born to high born men vs high born women.

Make that two or three years. Breastfeeding makes another pregnancy unlikely, hormonal stuff while the milkbar is open.

Furthermore, a marriage is still a legal contract with an important political partner and it's objective is to provide heirs. Not heirs of the mother, heirs of both parents. And the only way to make sure that the paramour's children aren't taken for the husband's children is to prevent the paramour from having sex with the mother a couple months in either direction. More like a couple years actually.

That makes it almost impossible for married woman to have bastards, even if they'd be entitled to some. Young widows are basically the only ones who can.

[Chebyshov]

I agree with you, Dorne is definitely still a patriarchal society. But we shouldn't underestimate the diversity of details within patriarcal systems in terms of women's right in various aspects of law and society. Dorne is certainly "less patriarchal" than other parts of Westeros.

Yes, it is. My bastardy example was because I was struggling to find unfair aspects of the law with regards to women to point to in Dorne, which is quite a good dilemma to have.

As for agricultural societies tending to breed patriarchy, so to speak, this is compacted by the fact that agriculture never developed in Dorne, and the first settlers there brought it with them, so comparing it to Mesopotamia or the Nile Valley in that context maybe inappropriate. The Rhoynar might have depended less on agriculture than those examples, being more sedentary hunter gatherers (think like the Haida) or mixed agricultural and hunter gatherer, and when they showed up in Dorne and transition to a more purely agriculture economy, those social structure had been in place so long they were resistant to change.

Makes sense to me...I certainly need to brush up on my early Dornish history though (here's hoping TWOIAF helps with that). My comparison to Mesopotamia was more about climate and from an ecological perspective, but it is rather clear that Dorne seems less agrarian in nature than say, The Reach.

And finally, the recognized bastards. I think there might be a selection bias in place here. Even if we assume that a high status woman in Dorne is as likely to have a permanent extramarital relationship (ie. a paramour) as a high status man is, which probably is not the case, I would think that a man in that situation would still be far more likely to have a bastard simple because his reproductive responsibilities vis a vis his family and his marital partner are so less demanding on him.

Say for example, Oberyn and Ellaria decide to have an extramarital child. And you can say "decide" because women in this universe, especially high status ones, can control their reproduction quite easily and reliably. So we can assume these kinds of couples have children together because they want to express their emotional connection to each other in that way. Oberyn can impregnate her one night, and just as easily impregnate his hypothetical wife the next night and fulfill his dynastic obligations as well as his fulfilling his presumably emotional needs with Ellaria.

However, say for example Arianne and her one true love Daemon Sand wanted to have an extramarital child. Arianne would have to take nine mouths out of her life that she could be having a legitimate child with her hypothetical husband, thereby depriving herself of an heir or a spare and also take on the inherent risks of pregnancy and childbirth in this universe with no dynastic pay off. I doubt many women would consider it worth it, at least not until later in life. Hence the much higher portion of recognized bastard born to high born men vs high born women.

Good point about sampling bias, certainly. It popped into my head as an easy example of how women, even in Dorne, still have legal obstacles to overcome. But your point shows an inherent social dynamic that tends to be problematic for women anyway.

But yeah, Oberyn's speech to young Obara was probably enough of an example to make my point. Still, this whole thing has made me fascinated by the She-bears [emoji12].

Bright Blue Eyes likely has the right of it, where the institution of marriage dissuades women from having extramarital affairs far more than men. But I wonder how women in Dorne and their paramours work in general, because I'm assuming they're allowed to have lovers as well. Though without paternity testing, that could raise serious issues (see Blackfyres).

Also, does Dorne have better birth control than the rest of Westeros? Their population is clearly under control (least populous), yet they are known for being lusty.

[naseridrl]

Uhhh, it could. But more likely her husband was a commoner or of a lower noble house, so the girls chose to keep her name. I don't think they're bastards so much as we don't know their dad (for Maege's kids). Alysane is just bizarre, but Bear Island is fairly unique in its situation. However, once a She-Bear has a son, I have no doubt they'll go back to the Northern inheritance structure.

My main point was that Dornish society is still patriarchal, even though it's a much better place to be a woman in Westeros than the other kingdoms. The bastardy thing was just a thought I had about how it impacts their laws explicitly.

Given Alysane is heir to Bear Island and does have a son, and is also where the action is right now in the books maybe it'll be touched upon.

In general though Bear Island does seem quite a good place to be a woman going off what we know so far, if it was on the other coast I'd probably pick it above Dorne as the place I'd live in if I got stuck in Westeros. As it stands its a tie but if it was on the warmer coast It'd go top spot, lol.

I do wonder though if when the lady of the house (in Dorne) who passes on her name say Lady Toland for example has a bastard if maybe she just passes it off as legitimate considering its her name that the child will have, some must have done that surely as long as they'd had a legitimate heir or two. It's not like having a bastard for a guy when there is no way to be sure its his, with a woman she knows its hers and so does everyone else, plus highborn women have the luxury of moon tea and such as well which probably helps with stopping unwanted pregnancies in a way poor folk don't have.

[Chebyshov]

As a side note to anyone who's interested: hunter-gatherers did plant crops, and would often stay in a location for a month or two depending on abundance of food and growing seasons. So cereal grains and nomadic lifestyles aren't mutually exclusive (I strongly recommend "The Edible History of Humanty"). Though their manipulation of the ecosystem certainly fell short of what we'd call "farming." This is kind of what I picture with Dorne pre-Nymeria. They likely increased irrigation through canals and had semi-stable grain crops in certain locations, along with local game, and of course their fruit-bearing trees. Once Dorne was unified, I'm sure trade increased. Even moreso when Aegon came. But yes, no large-scale agriculture like we see with other areas. Fiery peppers indicate some farmland though.

Do the orphans of the Greenblood just eat fish and fruit? Worried about their beta carotene intake.

[Wmarshal]

As a side note to anyone who's interested: hunter-gatherers did plant crops, and would often stay in a location for a month or two depending on abundance of food and growing seasons. So cereal grains and nomadic lifestyles aren't mutually exclusive (I strongly recommend "The Edible History of Humanty"). Though their manipulation of the ecosystem certainly fell short of what we'd call "farming." This is kind of what I picture with Dorne pre-Nymeria. They likely increased irrigation through canals and had semi-stable grain crops in certain locations, along with local game, and of course their fruit-bearing trees. Once Dorne was unified, I'm sure trade increased. Even moreso when Aegon came. But yes, no large-scale agriculture like we see with other areas. Fiery peppers indicate some farmland though.

Do the orphans of the Greenblood just eat fish and fruit? Worried about their beta carotene intake.

They are also traders, as stated on how most are wealthy. The Dornish likely sucked in trade with Lys, Myr and Volantis being that they backed them in the war with the iron throne.

[Julia Martell]

I do wonder though if when the lady of the house (in Dorne) who passes on her name say Lady Toland for example has a bastard if maybe she just passes it off as legitimate considering its her name that the child will have, some must have done that surely as long as they'd had a legitimate heir or two. It's not like having a bastard for a guy when there is no way to be sure its his, with a woman she knows its hers and so does everyone else, plus highborn women have the luxury of moon tea and such as well which probably helps with stopping unwanted pregnancies in a way poor folk don't have.

Seriously, being able to control your fertility (with moon tea) is the best thing that ever happened to Dorne. It's easy enough to be sure about a child paternity if you have that and some basic self control.

If I can beg your indulgence with an example not form Westeros, I'm in a long term (permeant as far as I'm concerned) non-monogamous relationship with a man with whom I have two children. When we decided to have our second child we simply refrained from having sex with anyone else until we had achieved to desired result. This requires a couple to trust each other, especially in a universe without paternity tests, and I guess we can't say how many arranged-marriage-united couples in Dorne have that kind of relationship but I find that if your not hiding the fact that you have sex with other people from your partner, it's quite easy to believe them when they say they haven't this week, or whatever. IF it's normal in Dorne for a highborn wife to have a paramour, and husbands are accepting of and aware of the fact, I don't see this kind a arrangement posing too many problems in general.

[Chebyshov]

Seriously, being able to control your fertility (with moon tea) is the best thing that ever happened to Dorne. It's easy enough to be sure about a child paternity if you have that and some basic self control.

If I can beg your indulgence with an example not form Westeros, I'm in a long term (permeant as far as I'm concerned) non-monogamous relationship with a man with whom I have two children. When we decided to have our second child we simply refrained from having sex with anyone else until we had achieved to desired result. This requires a couple to trust each other, especially in a universe without paternity tests, and I guess we can't say how many arranged-marriage-united couples in Dorne have that kind of relationship but I find that if your not hiding the fact that you have sex with other people from your partner, it's quite easy to believe them when they say they haven't this week, or whatever. IF it's normal in Dorne for a highborn wife to have a paramour, and husbands are accepting of and aware of the fact, I don't see this kind a arrangement posing too many problems in general.

I'd have to imagine that the lack of sexual hang-ups that the Dornish have allow for more open discussion between partners, even in arranged marriages. Inherently, that (plus moon tea) would probably be enough to mitigate most paternity concerns, though I guess sometimes it depends on the marriage (obviously your relationship would be the ideal). But the big question is "IF" highborn wives do have paramours. I'd like to think so, and Arianne's attitude towards lovers seems to back that up. All of this makes me really question Barristan's use of the word "dishonored."

Question about Dornish arranged marriages: Doran knew Arianne would spurn the older dudes, so even though he locked her into a marriage with Viserys, that seems to indicate the rest of Westeros wouldn't be surprised by her ability to have a say in her future husband. Does this mean Dornish nobles are less likely to have arranged marriages? Or just that people weren't surprised that Doran was a pushover? But like, yeah, heir to Dorne and 23. No one in Westeros was suspicious of something going on there?

[Julia Martell]

• Rhoynish influence in Dornish customs gives a special status to mistresses, or paramours as they name them, that places them above mistresses in the rest of the Seven Kingdoms but beneath wives. Dornish women of rank can also have their own paramours, and paramours may be of the same gender (III: 431. SSM: 1, 2, 3)

It would seem they do.

I'd have to imagine that the lack of sexual hang-ups that the Dornish have allow for more open discussion between partners, even in arranged marriages. Inherently, that (plus moon tea) would probably be enough to mitigate most paternity concerns, though I guess sometimes it depends on the marriage (obviously your relationship would be the ideal). But the big question is "IF" highborn wives do have paramours. I'd like to think so, and Arianne's attitude towards lovers seems to back that up. All of this makes me really question Barristan's use of the word "dishonored."

I think it's more to do with Barristan's perpective than Ashara's or anyone else's. Arys also spoke of how he was "dishonouring" Arianne.

Maybe it had to do with Ashara's baby daddy refusing to acknowledge the child? (It was totally Brandon, btw.)

[SeanF]

I imagine no great stigma would have attached to Arianne, if she'd had a child by Daemon Sand, but the child would not be legitimate, and would not have been in the line of succession to Dorne.

But, once she's married, I don't think it would be feasible for her to take a lover. In order for the child to inherit, there would have to be no doubt at all about that child's legitimacy. That means no doubt in the eyes of wider Dornish court society, as well as no doubt in the eyes of Arianne and her husband.

[yomi]

While the Dornish seem to be very open about the sex life of their unmarried daughter's, they might be more restictive about married women, if the text of "The Dornishman's Wife" is anything to go by. Then again I'm not so sure about married men having paramours. Which paramours do we know about? Ellaria Sand to Oberyn, but he was not married. Arrianne says Lewyn had one, but again, he wasn't married. Do we know what Ellaria's and Daemon's fathers' marital status were at the times around their births?

[Chebyshov]

While the Dornish seem to be very open about the sex life of their unmarried daughter's, they might be more restictive about married women, if the text of "The Dornishman's Wife" is anything to go by. Then again I'm not so sure about married men having paramours. Which paramours do we know about? Ellaria Sand to Oberyn, but he was not married. Arrianne says Lewyn had one, but again, he wasn't married. Do we know what Ellaria's and Daemon's fathers' marital status were at the times around their births?

There's this from an SSM (source)

Could each partner in a marriage have their own paramour?

Yes, but it would depend on the rank of the partners.

Wonder what that "rank of the partners" is all about.

But, once she's married, I don't think it would be feasible for her to take a lover. In order for the child to inherit, there would have to be no doubt at all about that child's legitimacy. That means no doubt in the eyes of wider Dornish court society, as well as no doubt in the eyes of Arianne and her husband.

Well, the SSMs seem to confirm Dornish women, even married ones, can have paramours. I do get where you're coming from, but my guess is if the legitimacy of a child is good enough for the married couple, it's good enough for the rest of Dorne. I mean, that worked great for Daeron II, right? Or maybe this is where female paramours should come in :wideeyed: .

Maybe it had to do with Ashara's baby daddy refusing to acknowledge the child? (It was totally Brandon, btw.)

Oh most definitely.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Wonder what that "rank of the partners" is all about.

I guess that the higher born women will have an easier time getting acceptance for their paramour than the less highborn women in Dorne.

[naseridrl]

There's this from an SSM (source)

Wonder what that "rank of the partners" is all about.

I imagine women who are the head of the household and hold the ''lords'' position probably have a easier time doing whatever they want as they are answerable to no one, they are head of the family. It's her name the kids get, its her home etc so if she wants a little something on the side its up to her. Maybe the lesser ranked partner needs to be more careful. I also think paramours maybe come later in marriage when heirs have been gotten and things are secure, if they do indeed have them after marriage. It's also possible that in Dorne more people marry for love so you spouse and paramour are one and the same.

We don't really know of any married people with paramours of yet. I've always thought of paramours as girl/boyfriends. I also wonder if that's why bastards have more rights because a lot of them are children to a couple who love one another and for a time were committed. Not all obviously but it probably had a knock on effect to all bastards being treated better when consenting mutually enjoyable sex without marriage isn't considered a bad thing ad embraced you can't treat bastards as things to be ignored as easily when what creates them isn't so looked down on.

[Julia Martell]

Well, the SSMs seem to confirm Dornish women, even married ones, can have paramours. I do get where you're coming from, but my guess is if the legitimacy of a child is good enough for the married couple, it's good enough for the rest of Dorne. I mean, that worked great for Daeron II, right? Or maybe this is where female paramours should come in :wideeyed: .

I guess that's what it has to come down to, in the end. If a man says that a child is his, you just believe him.

In the case of Aegon and Naerys people were willing to take advantage of any ambiguity for political reasons but the difference is that, in Dorne, this whole paramour thing is a well established social custom. If everyone is doing it, that really makes a difference. And if you maliciously question the paternity of your rival, he could just as easily maliciously question yours, or your father's , or your grandmother's.

And I imagine this is the kind of thing you can write into a marriage contract, people write them into prenups today. No extramarital sex until we have three kids, at least, or none for ten years, or none without approval.

Seriously, it amazing what you can accomplish in this area if you get use to the idea of just talking about it openly.

[naseridrl]

There's also the issue in Dorne of passing things on through both sexes So you could get a house that has a son and a daughter, but neither had legitimate children. Both have known bastards but only the womans is totally 100% certain a child with the house blood because it came from the woman. Even if the son has claimed his bastard who's to say that child does carry his blood though? In that situation some might think the daughters child is the better bet a it will carry on the blood and name for certain.

Women of powerful houses might not want to have bastards because there is no doubt that they do have blood of the house in their veins at least with a man bastard there can be doubt put upon any claim by the opposing side

I do think people in Dorne in marriage probably do talk more and I think they probably have to have quite extensive pre-nups and stuff because titles can pass through ale and females so maybe when you marry you have to say goodbye to your claim on the ''lesser'' house of the two. It's okay for the seemingly small number of andal law houses but for all the rest I imagine the bigger house trumps the little one. Otherwise you'd have at some point kids who are in certain circumstances heirs to a different house each would create power blocks that can challenge the monarchic power.

[Julia Martell]

There's also the issue in Dorne of passing things on through both sexes So you could get a house that has a son and a daughter, but neither had legitimate children. Both have known bastards but only the womans is totally 100% certain a child with the house blood because it came from the woman. Even if the son has claimed his bastard who's to say that child does carry his blood though? In that situation some might think the daughters child is the better bet a it will carry on the blood and name for certain.

Women of powerful houses might not want to have bastards because there is no doubt that they do have blood of the house in their veins at least with a man bastard there can be doubt put upon any claim by the opposing side

I do think people in Dorne in marriage probably do talk more and I think they probably have to have quite extensive pre-nups and stuff because titles can pass through ale and females so maybe when you marry you have to say goodbye to your claim on the ''lesser'' house of the two. It's okay for the seemingly small number of andal law houses but for all the rest I imagine the bigger house trumps the little one. Otherwise you'd have at some point kids who are in certain circumstances heirs to a different house each would create power blocks that can challenge the monarchic power.

We've speculated that a law like this might exist, mostly due to the puzzling nature of the Yronwood inheritance as it stands at the moment. I call it the Dornish Anti-Trust Law. These kinds of monster amalgamated houses gave monarchy trouble in several countries in the late medieval/early modern period, and the ultimate amalgamated family, the Habsburgs, gave everyone trouble for quite a while, so it's easy to see how it would seem a good idea.

I think it is important to these people to have legitimate children even if it's the mothers name that matters. Not only for religious reasons, but also, as Bright Blue Eyes said upthread, the POINT of a marriage contract is to produce children who are to some degree heirs of both parents.

But in general, I think that the absolute primogeniture system has made the Dornish less rigid about what a relationship between a husband and a wife SHOULD be like, so they're more willing to discuss, um, more complex arrangements. Some of these marriage contrats must be fun to read though.

[naseridrl]

We've speculated that a law like this might exist, mostly due to the puzzling nature of the Yronwood inheritance as it stands at the moment. I call it the Dornish Anti-Trust Law. These kinds of monster amalgamated houses gave monarchy trouble in several countries in the late medieval/early modern period, and the ultimate amalgamated family, the Habsburgs, gave everyone trouble for quite a while, so it's easy to see how it would seem a good idea.

I think it is important to these people to have legitimate children even if it's the mothers name that matters. Not only for religious reasons, but also, as Bright Blue Eyes said upthread, the POINT of a marriage contract is to produce children who are to some degree heirs of both parents.

But in general, I think that the absolute primogeniture system has made the Dornish less rigid about what a relationship between a husband and a wife SHOULD be like, so they're more willing to discuss, um, more complex arrangements. Some of these marriage contrats must be fun to read though.

Oh I totally agree about having legitimate children, it also fosters relationships between families and connect people so you also got a greater willingness to work together. I just think if you are worried about blood and name and in Dorne a woman can pass on both if you had a choice you'd chose a woman's bastard over a man's if there was no other legitimate choice. I only brought it up as its only likely to ever happen in Dorne and even then its unlikely as most houses probably have plenty of heirs floating around as both males and female count equally.

The anti-trust stuff totally makes sense, also it might be different if Ynys didn't have a sister as to how the marriage contract went as she'd then be heir to the possibly bigger house between Allyrion and Yronwood I imagine if something happen to her brother, having another child on the Yronwood branch probably made it easier for Ynys's claim to be ended unless everyone died out maybe.. But with Yronwood being Andal and seemingly anti-women maybe its better Ynys and her potentially female kids are in a family with a female head where they might get treated more equal. I'd personally love it Gwyneth did get her hands on the Stone Way and made it absolute primo, lol.

[Chebyshov]

I really wonder about Anders's view on women. I hope we meet him in TWOW, because what we know of him is so limited. But to send his own heir on a suicide mission with Quentyn speaks a lot to his loyalties, IMO.