Dornish Debates II: Of Orphans and Inheritance

[Julia Martell]

Being Princess of Dorne vs being Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.

I don't know which one Arianne would choose, but there are plenty reasons for her to want him. Plenty.

For her POV in TWOW, she looks like she'd prefer the latter

Really? I disagree.

"Why would Arianne want him? She finally got her birthright to rule Dorne, like she's always wanted. I don't see her giving it up to be his #2."

Why can't she be both Princess of Dorne, and Queen of Westeros?

It seems to be a give that she can't be. Dornish Law, we speculate.

Really? Just looked to me like she wanted to sit on Daemon's face.

That too.

[SeanF]

Chebyshov, why can't she do both?

[Ingelheim]

Really? Just looked to me like she wanted to sit on Daemon's face.

Oh, she did. She made that pretty clear :cool4:

But Arianne is much more than sex. There are many things she'd like in a man. We know she liked how Darkstar looked, and fAegon is pretty much like him, so looks wouldn't be a problem.

The other things...fAegon brings them as well. Power, chances of getting revenge, chances of proving her father (and herself) that she can rule, etc.

[Chebyshov]

Chebyshov, why can't she do both?

It's more her desires than her ability to do both I'm speaking to. I could be wrong. It's just not how I'm reading the situation.

[Julia Martell]

Oh, she did. She made that pretty clear :cool4:

But Arianne is much more than sex. There are many things she'd like in a man. We know she liked how Darkstar looked, and fAegon is pretty much like him, so looks wouldn't be a problem.

The other things...fAegon brings them as well. Power, chances of getting revenge, chances of proving her father (and herself) that she can rule, etc.

We're never going to agree on this, and one of us is obviously going to be proven wrong so... (I still think I'm right)

"I would sooner it were Quentyn who’d returned."

"Or so you say," said Daemon Sand. "Good night, princess." He bowed to her, and left her standing there.

What did he mean by that? Arianne watched him walk away. What sort of sister would I be, if I did not want my brother back? It was true, she had resented Quentyn for all those years that she had thought their father meant to name him as his heir in place of her, but that had turned out to be just a misunderstanding. She was the heir to Dorne, she had her father’s word on that. Quentyn would have his dragon queen, Daenerys.

In Sunspear hung a portrait of the Princess Daenerys who had come to Dorne to marry one of Arianne’s forebears. In her younger days Arianne had spent hours gazing at it, back when she was just a pudgy flat-chested girl on the cusp of maidenhood who prayed every night for the gods to make her pretty. A hundred years ago, Daenerys Targaryen came to Dorne to make a peace. Now another comes to make a war, and my brother will be her king and consort. King Quentyn. Why did that sound so silly?

Almost as silly as Quentyn riding on a dragon. Her brother was an earnest boy, well-behaved and dutiful, but dull. And plain, so plain. The gods had given Arianne the beauty she had prayed for, but Quentyn must have prayed for something else. His head was overlarge and sort of square, his hair the color of dried mud. His shoulders slumped as well, and he was too thick about the middle. He looks too much like Father.

"I love my brother," said Arianne, though only the moon could hear her. Though if truth be told, she scarcely knew him.

[....]

"I like the dragon." She wanted to slap the smile off his face. Or kiss it off, perhaps. The man was as smug as he was comely. Of all the knights in Dorne, why did my father chose this one to be my shield? He knows our history. "It is just a game. Tell me of Prince Viserys."

"The Beggar King?" Ser Daemon seemed surprised.

"Everyone says that Prince Rhaegar was beautiful. Was Viserys beautiful as well?"

"I suppose. He was Targaryen. I never saw the man."

The secret pact that Prince Doran had made all those years called for Arianne to be wed to Prince Viserys, not Quentyn to Daenerys. It had all come undone on the Dothraki sea, when he was murdered. Crowned with a pot of molten gold. "He was killed by a Dothraki khal," said Arianne. "The dragon queen’s own husband."

"So I’ve heard. What of it?"

"Just… why did Daenerys let it happen? Viserys was her brother. All that remained of her own blood."

"The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand."

Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King’s daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know — "

"We cannot know," Ser Daemon said. "We can only hope."

Okay, so these are the quotes that everyone uses to argue that Arianne wants to be Queen. All I've ever read into them is that Arianne feels guilty for basically hating her brother for no reason. She projects her own feeling about her brother, that he would be Prince of Dorne while she's off married to some old dude, onto Daenerys. The fact that she seems to blame Dany for letting Viserys dies is a reflection of how she now sees her own actions towards her brother.

She also thinks about how dull and plain and dutiful he is. Arianne is none of those things. She'd make a shitty consort anyways.

[Ingelheim]

We're never going to agree on this, and one of us is obviously going to be proven wrong so... (I still think I'm right)

But I actually don't really know your position about this Julia.

I mean, I get you don't think Arianne will like and/or marry fAegon, and that's perfectly possible and fine, but Doran not giving help to Aegon...that really needs good and strong arguments. And seeing how you love and enjoy Dorne ( :cheers: ) , I really don't get why you believe this.

[Chebyshov]

Doran's lack of support would be linked to the ambiguity of Aegon's identity, so a lot of that is contingent on Arianne's reading of the situation. There's also the dragons factor; Doran doesn't like risks, and if ending up on the wrong side against dragons could be costly.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

These days I'm in a hurry.

First, I reread Arianne I and I think there is a bit of misconception about what she's doing on her way to Aegon. First, she's there for one reason: dragons. If she says "dragons", Dorne prepares to attack (with the dragons, obviously). If she doesn't, Dorne waits. That's all she's sent to do. She can't decide marriages, nor anything. And that's because Doran only knows about Dany, and he probably believes (or hopes) Quentyn is coming with Aegon, along with her. Even if she believes Aegon is real, she only has to options: "dragons" (war) or "war" (wait). IF she send the word for war, and Dorne attacks without the dragons, that goes against whatever plan Doran has.

Now, we know Aegon has now the GC and Stormlands. With Dorne, that's definitely better chance. But, that's for Doran to decided, not Arianne.

But Arianne is much more than sex. There are many things she'd like in a man. We know she liked how Darkstar looked, and fAegon is pretty much like him, so looks wouldn't be a problem.

It's not only about the looks. She likes dangerous men that are hard to get, and Aegon is practically a puppy. He might have sex with Arianne, but I think Elia is there for a different reason than simply nag Arianne. I mean, just look at the names. For instance, I don't think it's a coincidence that we have two Jons as PoV, and they both are related to Rhaegar. In the same way, Elia is going to meet a guy whose mother was also named Elia (she was named after her) and her father and his mother were killed by the same guy, who isn't as dead as HER uncle believes. I think GRRM is trying to tell us something there.

[naseridrl]

I've been wondering if the girl who had the dragon dream on the boat (who's name escapes me) might play her part in realising Aegon is fake. Maybe she has some kind of dream and Arianne begins to doubt.

Someone also needs to tell Arianne being Queen might be nice but in Dorne the power would be hers and as Queen she'd only have what the King allowed she'd have no real power as Queen it's an empty title. Although I'd prefer it if she figured that out on her own.

[Ingelheim]

Doran's lack of support would be linked to the ambiguity of Aegon's identity, so a lot of that is contingent on Arianne's reading of the situation. There's also the dragons factor; Doran doesn't like risks, and if ending up on the wrong side against dragons could be costly.

Aegon has 10,000 men, JonCon, many castles, and probably, Storm's End. Add the fact that the GC has still "many friends" in the Reach, and you have there a serious risk.

Right now, who's there to fight against Aegon? The North? The Riverlands? The Iron Islands? The Lannisters armies are scattered and heavily damaged; many lords from the Stormlands will back JonCon.

The only ones able to stop Aegon are the Reach lords. If Tarly, Rowan, or even Tyrell supports him...Aegon is the real contender.

About Aegon's real identity...he has purple eyes, silver hair, JonCon, etc. If Arianne doesn't believe he's real, she wouldn't believe the real Aegon is real. There's nothing more that can prove his identity.

Let us not forget as well Quentyn is dead. And let us not forget how and why. Doran's original plan is now completely gone. Daenerys is believed to be dead as well.

It's not only about the looks. She likes dangerous men that are hard to get, and Aegon is practically a puppy. He might have sex with Arianne, but I think Elia is there for a different reason than simply nag Arianne. I mean, just look at the names. For instance, I don't think it's a coincidence that we have two Jons as PoV, and they both are related to Rhaegar. In the same way, Elia is going to meet a guy whose mother was also named Elia (she was named after her) and her father and his mother were killed by the same guy, who isn't as dead as HER uncle believes. I think GRRM is trying to tell us something there.

Oh, agreed, but that's not what I said. I said Aegon, at first, will fall for Arianne. I take that as a fact. He may end up with Elia, but Arianne is going to be huge for Aegon.

About Arianne liking him...he has the looks, but I'm not so sure he's a puppy. I'm pretty sure Arianne wouldn't believe that he is one if she sees him taking Storm's End all by himself.

Also, she may like dangerous guys (mostly jerks), but that was AFFC Arianne. She's changed now. And she loved Arys, even if she wasn't aware of it untill he died. Aegon offers her power, chances of being a Queen...and chances of proving her father she can rule; that she has grown. She is going to be interested, I'm sure

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Oh, agreed, but that's not what I said. I said Aegon, at first, will fall for Arianne. I take that as a fact. He may end up with Elia, but Arianne is going to be huge for Aegon.

"but... but... but... I like her!"

"listen kid. Let me tell you what happened when your father also decided he liked a girl..."

(three hours later)

"...and that's why I ended up exiled and in a boat. With you".

[Julia Martell]

But I actually don't really know your position about this Julia.

I mean, I get you don't think Arianne will like and/or marry fAegon, and that's perfectly possible and fine, but Doran not giving help to Aegon...that really needs good and strong arguments. And seeing how you love and enjoy Dorne ( :cheers: ) , I really don't get why you believe this.

I'm sorry, I had thought I made my position clear.

I think Dorne would be stupid to side with either Dany or fAegon. They should close off the passes and just wait for everyone to kill each other. I don't see what they have to gain, other than "vengeance" which I think even Doran is starting to see is a dumb reason to do anything.

As a few of my learned colleagues have said, Doran would only be persuaded to support Aegon if he's convinced he can win. Dany and dragons would convince him, I guess, be Aegon doesn't have those. And 10, 00 men from the Golden Company is good, but it doesn't make him a shoe in. And I don't see why his appearance should be so convincing, especially since, like "...every whore in Lys..."

Doran's lack of support would be linked to the ambiguity of Aegon's identity, so a lot of that is contingent on Arianne's reading of the situation. There's also the dragons factor; Doran doesn't like risks, and if ending up on the wrong side against dragons could be costly.

I'm not even saying that Dorne won't end up supporting fAegon, but I don't think it will be a simple thing to convince them. And JonCon really played up how important Dornish support was.

“Has the time come to raise his banner?” asked Pease.

“Not yet. Let King’s Landing think this is no more than an exile lord coming home with some hired swords to reclaim his birthright. An old familiar story, that. I will even write King Tommen, stating as much and asking for a pardon and the restoration of my lands and titles. That will give them something to chew over for a while. And whilst they dither, we will send out word secretly to likely friends in the stormlands and the Reach. And Dorne.” That was the crucial step. Lesser lords might join their cause for fear of harm or hope of gain, but only the Prince of Dorne had the power to defy House Lannister and its allies. “Above all else, we must have Doran Martell.”

“Small chance of that,” said Strickland. “The Dornishman is scared of his own shadow. Not what you call daring.”

No more than you. “Prince Doran is a cautious man, that’s true. He will never join us unless he is convinced that we will win. So to persuade him we must show our strength.”

It's not just about Dorne's overhyped military power, but also about the prestige associated with the Prince of Dorne. That will grant them legitimacy.

And Doran, more than anyone, know the difference between numbers and actually "strength". The Golden Company are VERY good soldiers, but they also come with a lot a baggage. I doubt the Dornish will be the first to ask why the fuck the heirs of Bittersteel would support a Targaryan and kiss ass to Dorne.

[Julia Martell]

"I would sooner it were Quentyn who’d returned."

"Or so you say," said Daemon Sand. "Good night, princess." He bowed to her, and left her standing there.
What did he mean by that? Arianne watched him walk away. What sort of sister would I be, if I did not want my brother back? It was true, she had resented Quentyn for all those years that she had thought their father meant to name him as his heir in place of her, but that had turned out to be just a misunderstanding. She was the heir to Dorne, she had her father’s word on that. Quentyn would have his dragon queen, Daenerys.
In Sunspear hung a portrait of the Princess Daenerys who had come to Dorne to marry one of Arianne’s forebears. In her younger days Arianne had spent hours gazing at it, back when she was just a pudgy flat-chested girl on the cusp of maidenhood who prayed every night for the gods to make her pretty. A hundred years ago, Daenerys Targaryen came to Dorne to make a peace. Now another comes to make a war, and my brother will be her king and consort. King Quentyn. Why did that sound so silly?
Almost as silly as Quentyn riding on a dragon. Her brother was an earnest boy, well-behaved and dutiful, but dull. And plain, so plain. The gods had given Arianne the beauty she had prayed for, but Quentyn must have prayed for something else. His head was overlarge and sort of square, his hair the color of dried mud. His shoulders slumped as well, and he was too thick about the middle. He looks too much like Father.

"I love my brother," said Arianne, though only the moon could hear her. Though if truth be told, she scarcely knew him.

[....]

"I like the dragon." She wanted to slap the smile off his face. Or kiss it off, perhaps. The man was as smug as he was comely. Of all the knights in Dorne, why did my father chose this one to be my shield? He knows our history. "It is just a game. Tell me of Prince Viserys."
"The Beggar King?" Ser Daemon seemed surprised.
"Everyone says that Prince Rhaegar was beautiful. Was Viserys beautiful as well?"
"I suppose. He was Targaryen. I never saw the man."
The secret pact that Prince Doran had made all those years called for Arianne to be wed to Prince Viserys, not Quentyn to Daenerys. It had all come undone on the Dothraki sea, when he was murdered. Crowned with a pot of molten gold. "He was killed by a Dothraki khal," said Arianne. "The dragon queen’s own husband."
"So I’ve heard. What of it?"
"Just… why did Daenerys let it happen? Viserys was her brother. All that remained of her own blood."
"The Dothraki are a savage folk. Who can know why they kill? Perhaps Viserys wiped his arse with the wrong hand."
Perhaps, thought Arianne, or perhaps Daenerys realized that once her brother was crowned and wed to me, she would be doomed to spend the rest of her life sleeping in a tent and smelling like a horse. "She is the Mad King’s daughter," the princess said. "How do we do know — "
"We cannot know," Ser Daemon said. "We can only hope."

Okay, so these are the quotes that everyone uses to argue that Arianne wants to be Queen. All I've ever read into them is that Arianne feels guilty for basically hating her brother for no reason. She projects her own feeling about her brother, that he would be Prince of Dorne while she's off married to some old dude, onto Daenerys. The fact that she seems to blame Dany for letting Viserys dies is a reflection of how she now sees her own actions towards her brother.

She also thinks about how dull and plain and dutiful he is. Arianne is none of those things. She'd make a shitty consort anyways.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

"Why would Arianne want him? She finally got her birthright to rule Dorne, like she's always wanted. I don't see her giving it up to be his #2."

Why can't she be both Princess of Dorne, and Queen of Westeros?

It seems by law (either Dornish or general Westeros law) that it is not possible.

Myriah Martell was the heiress to Dorne, yet she gave up that claim to marry Prince Daeron. The point of her marriage was to make peace with Dorne after the Conquest had ended, but the Targaryens would still want Dorne to become part of their kingdom. That was what the marriage of Maron (Myriah's younger brother) and Daenerys (Daeron's younger sister) was for.

If it was possible for Myriah to remain both heiress/ruling princess of Dorne, and become the Queen of Westeros, that would have been the perfect, easiest, and most peacefull possible way to make Dorne part of the 7K. Yet that didn't happen. So it seems that it isn't possible.

[Chebyshov]

Okay, so these are the quotes that everyone uses to argue that Arianne wants to be Queen. All I've ever read into them is that Arianne feels guilty for basically hating her brother for no reason. She projects her own feeling about her brother, that he would be Prince of Dorne while she's off married to some old dude, onto Daenerys. The fact that she seems to blame Dany for letting Viserys dies is a reflection of how she now sees her own actions towards her brother.

She also thinks about how dull and plain and dutiful he is. Arianne is none of those things. She'd make a shitty consort anyways.

:agree: I just reread this chapter too, and completely agree.

Arianne doesn't once think about how close she was to being queen, and in fact, her comment about Dany sleeping in a tent demonstrates that she doesn't exactly want to play second string to any guy. She also thinks about Aegon very little, acknowledges they'll have no guarantee to his identity, and then changes the subject to her brother. Meanwhile Elia is running around with her hormones raging. I don't see Aegon/Arianne happening at all.

[Chebyshov]

"but... but... but... I like her!"

"listen kid. Let me tell you what happened when your father also decided he liked a girl..."

(three hours later)

"...and that's why I ended up exiled and in a boat. With you".

:lmao: :lmao:

Poor JonCon. If history repeats itself, I'm not sure he'll be able to handle it. He already has so much guilt and sadness over the first time.

[Ingelheim]

I'm sorry, I had thought I made my position clear.

I think Dorne would be stupid to side with either Dany or fAegon. They should close off the passes and just wait for everyone to kill each other. I don't see what they have to gain, other than "vengeance" which I think even Doran is starting to see is a dumb reason to do anything.

As a few of my learned colleagues have said, Doran would only be persuaded to support Aegon if he's convinced he can win. Dany and dragons would convince him, I guess, be Aegon doesn't have those. And 10, 00 men from the Golden Company is good, but it doesn't make him a shoe in. And I don't see why his appearance should be so convincing, especially since, like "...every whore in Lys..."

I'm not even saying that Dorne won't end up supporting fAegon, but I don't think it will be a simple thing to convince them. And JonCon really played up how important Dornish support was.

It's not just about Dorne's overhyped military power, but also about the prestige associated with the Prince of Dorne. That will grant them legitimacy.

And Doran, more than anyone, know the difference between numbers and actually "strength". The Golden Company are VERY good soldiers, but they also come with a lot a baggage. I doubt the Dornish will be the first to ask why the fuck the heirs of Bittersteel would support a Targaryan and kiss ass to Dorne.

But we all know Dorne is not going to do that Julia. Dorne is going to choose; more precisely, Doran. If Martin had wanted Dorne to stay neutral, he wouldn't have given us POV chapters and everything.

I think we can all agree Dorne will play a part.

Now, Arianne is the one who's supposed to decide if Aegon is real or not. He has purple eyes, silver hair, and JonCon saying he is real.

A question now: how would Aegon, the real one, prove his identity? Exactly the same way fAegon would. Because fAegon believes himself to be real. Hell, we are the only ones who believe he is not; even JonCon believes it.

Aegon is, right now, seriously understimated. He is a serious risk. As I said before...only the Reach can stop him. And that's why Martin gave us hints about the GC still having friends in the Reach

The Second Dance of Dragons is going to happen. And for that, Aegon needs to be a huge contender.

[naseridrl]

Now, Arianne is the one who's supposed to decide if Aegon is real or not. He has purple eyes, silver hair, and JonCon saying he is real.

A question now: how would Aegon, the real one, prove his identity? Exactly the same way fAegon would. Because fAegon believes himself to be real. Hell, we are the only ones who believe he is not; even JonCon believes it.

.

I would seriously love it if Arianne busts out a letter from Elia to Oberyn/Doran about her new son Aegon and how in her motherly glee she descirbes him and his little body and reveals he has birthmark, lol. And Arianne asks Aegon to show her said birthmark and no one ha a clue what to do It's the cliché that cracks me up the most.

[Julia Martell]

But we all know Dorne is not going to do that Julia. Dorne is going to choose; more precisely, Doran. If Martin had wanted Dorne to stay neutral, he wouldn't have given us POV chapters and everything.

I think we can all agree Dorne will play a part.

Now, Arianne is the one who's supposed to decide if Aegon is real or not. He has purple eyes, silver hair, and JonCon saying he is real.

A question now: how would Aegon, the real one, prove his identity? Exactly the same way fAegon would. Because fAegon believes himself to be real. Hell, we are the only ones who believe he is not; even JonCon believes it.

Aegon is, right now, seriously understimated. He is a serious risk. As I said before...only the Reach can stop him. And that's why Martin gave us hints about the GC still having friends in the Reach

The Second Dance of Dragons is going to happen. And for that, Aegon needs to be a huge contender.

I agree that there's going to be a second Dance of Dragons, but it's still a side show to the actual endgame. Dorne can still possibly be relevant to the story without being involved in it. They weren't involved in the first Dance, after all.

And this is the last time I'll bring this up because we obviously won't agree: his physical appearance is not the smoking gun you seem to assume it is, and I can't imaging people in Westeros not asking the exact same questions people on this forum ask.

And you're totally right, fAegon is totally underestimated on this forum. And so is Euron. I wouldn't be surprised if they both had their chance in King's Landing, to be honest.

And the Vale and Dorne are the two regions that have their armies in tact. And they're also the two region that are easily cut off from invasion by mountain passes.... interesting....

[Ingelheim]

I agree that there's going to be a second Dance of Dragons, but it's still a side show to the actual endgame. Dorne can still possibly be relevant to the story without being involved in it. They weren't involved in the first Dance, after all.

And this is the last time I'll bring this up because we obviously won't agree: his physical appearance is not the smoking gun you seem to assume it is, and I can't imaging people in Westeros not asking the exact same questions people on this forum ask.

And you're totally right, fAegon is totally underestimated on this forum. And so is Euron. I wouldn't be surprised if they both had their chance in King's Landing, to be honest.

And the Vale and Dorne are the two regions that have their armies in tact. And they're also the two region that are easily cut off from invasion by mountain passes.... interesting....

But then, I don't see how Dorne would be relevant. I honestly don't think they are going to be huge in the final fight against the Others.

People in Westeros don't have half the information we have; they don't know about Blackfyre line not being extinct, they don't know half the things we do. Not even the Lords, even less the smallfolk.

I mean, just an example: do you really think the Lords of Westeros could come up with the "fAegon = Brightflame" theory? I honestly don't.

Also, the question I wrote is still good: the real Aegon couldn't prove himself a Targ better than fAegon could. Unless Aegon had a birthmark, and fAegon doesn't.

So, JonCon is the key here. And JonCon believes he's real.