Jaime Lannister's Love Life

[Julia Martell]

^I think I want to do a straight Arianne reread (including the relevant Hotah and Aerys chapters) to look at this a lot deeper (I've only gone through Sansa's chapters like that before). I was going to do Cersei, but that feels like it will be emotionally draining. Or maybe I'll just write a comparative essay about sex, power, and the politics of womanhood.

I agree that Cersei is just a worse person at the core, which is often why I forgive Arianne myself. Oh these ladies...

I keep saying I'll do a feminist re-read of Cersei... maybe after this stupid French exam I'm suppose to be studying for as we speak....

[Ingelheim]

Cersei as a POV character is one of the most spectacular examples of decharacterisation I have ever seen. She became less complex the moment Martin decided to get inside her mind.

Cersei was this evil-mastermind, complex strong woman in AGOT, ACOK and AFFC. Once we got insider her head in AFFC...she's no longer that.

[Chebyshov]

I keep saying I'll do a feminist re-read of Cersei... maybe after this stupid French exam I'm suppose to be studying for as we speak....

I'm down for that. I find her POVs almost as emotionally taxing as Tyrion's, so any way to rethink them would be cool. The vitriol directed at Cersei in these forums really bothers me, even though she's kind of awful. It just feels like there's a lot of sexism that comes with criticizing her though.

[larastone]

Yeah, we're weird like that, and it often bothers me.

Neither Cersei nor Arianne ever feel guilty about having sex, (which they shouldn't) but Arianne does feel guilty about manipulating Arys, and acknowledges the genuineness of his feeling for her, while Cersei never has anything but contempt for Lancel and Taena. Arianne's manipulation is a little desperate (really, reread The Soiled Knight, she would have promised him the moon if she thought it would work) and Cersei's is always cold and calculating. She's always telling herself that she's doing it for her son, which I find creepy.

I'm not going to defend my imaginary BFF in this case though, the fact that she knew better makes Arianne's actions even worse than Cersei's in this case.

But Cersei is a bad person. Apart from the fact that she's a woman, apart from the fact that she a person in a position of authority, she just a bad person.

And yeah, poster child for internalized misogyny. Can you imagine what Cersei's thoughts would have been if it was Margaery doing the Walk of Shame?

Honestly though I don't think that either Cersei or Arianne should be disliked for using as a weapon. With Cersei, it isn't empowering or enjoyable at all and that's something that needs to be recognized but otherwise I think what GRRM is trying to say that a person shouldn't rely on one single way as a means to gain power. Jaime learns this when he loses his hand and Arianne learns this when Arys is killed. And Cersei learns it during the WOS.......personally I don't think we're going to be seeing any more cersei sex scenes in the last two books.

But yean no denying that cersei is an asshole, while Arianne is definitely a good person despite her flaws

[Julia Martell]

I'm down for that. I find her POVs almost as emotionally taxing as Tyrion's, so any way to rethink them would be cool. The vitriol directed at Cersei in these forums really bothers me, even though she's kind of awful. It just feels like there's a lot of sexism that comes with criticizing her though.

Welcome to the internet.

And aren't we suppose to be talking about Jaime? Um, I like him, I guess. I have trouble remembering how he threw a kid out a window.

And he seems to be into monogamy. Which means nothing except that he's into monogamy. (Monogamy doesn't make you a good person despite what mainstream culture wants people to believe for some reason.)

[kimim]

yep, Cersei likes that she can use sex to manipulate but she doesn't genuinely ~WANT~ to now does she?? ultimately what Cersei wants is a sword that she can wield just like Jaime, but she can't have that. so just like how Jaime gets a golden hand and has started to use it as a weapon, Cersei uses her sexuality as a weapon. I think Jaime using his golden is a pretty decent comparison of how Cersei uses her sexuality.and its certainly not empowering for her as how Osney ends up exploiting her in the end. its pretty sad imo, its things that like these that can't help me from sympathizing with Cersei even though she's a fucking monster that deserves to die

I can feel no sympathy for her, I'm sorry.

1. She can't read people. See every single human being she assigns to various posts after she becomes Regent.

2. She is ignorant. See her decision not to pay back the Iron Bank. See her decision to rearm the Sept.

There's a limit to finding excuses for her.

btw, This happens to her at the same time that her bro starts becoming more sane. He is also forced to deal with new circumstances--no hand. Unlike Cersei, he makes the right decisions when dealing with the two sieges.

If anything, I'd take this up with Martin. The last two volumes are dismal for women. Cersei sinks, as Jaime rises. Dany gets mired in Meereen. Asha gets captured. Arianne and Sand Snakes get on the right path only after submitting to their father/uncle. Brienne goes nowhere. Catelyn, who had interesting stuff to say about the "proper" roles of women in Westeros, is now a zombie. Olenna disappears. Melisandre starts to look more and more incompetent, while Moqorro takes over as the dangerous priest. Ouch.

[larastone]

Welcome to the internet.

And aren't we suppose to be talking about Jaime? Um, I like him, I guess. I have trouble remembering how he threw a kid out a window.

And he seems to be into monogamy. Which means nothing except that he's into monogamy. (Monogamy doesn't make you a good person despite what mainstream culture wants people to believe for some reason.)

It's more than just monogamy for Jaime, I also think that he only wants to have sex with women he LOVES

Agreed that monogamy is something that gets more praise than it deserves

[larastone]

I can feel no sympathy for her, I'm sorry.

1. She can't read people. See every single human being she assigns to various posts after she becomes Regent.

2. She is ignorant. See her decision not to pay back the Iron Bank. See her decision to rearm the Sept.

There's a limit to finding excuses for her.

btw, This happens to her at the same time that her bro starts becoming more sane. He is also forced to deal with new circumstances--no hand. Unlike Cersei, he makes the right decisions when dealing with the two sieges.

If anything, I'd take this up with Martin. The last two volumes are dismal for women. Cersei sinks, as Jaime rises. Dany gets mired in Meereen. Asha gets captured. Arianne and Sand Snakes get on the right path only after submitting to their father/uncle. Brienne goes nowhere. Catelyn, who had interesting stuff to say about the "proper" roles of women in Westeros, is now a zombie. Olenna disappears. Melisandre starts to look more and more incompetent, while Moqorro takes over as the dangerous priest. Ouch.

That's fine, you don't need to feel sympathy for her. I think with a character like Cersei, you can only feel sympathy for her if you genuinely try to or can relate to her.

That being said I agree that she is a terrible politician and I certainly don't feel any sympathy for her in the examples you gave. Rearming the faith has got to be the most baffling decision she's ever made.

I agree that GRRM has his flaws when it comes to writing women and it's made very obvious that he very clearly prefers certain types of women over others.

[Rhaenys' kitten]

I do think that Jaime's love is, and will continue to be, important in the story.

1. The name Jaime is like the French "J'aime"...I love.

2. "The things I do for love" <pushes Bran out the window>

3. You could argue that Jaime and Cersei's love started the war (could argue the same for Lysa though)

4. Jaime's love for Tyrion is why he attacks Ned and leads a host to war

5. Love of Cersei is what keeps him going during his imprisonment

6. Cersei's apparent lack of love when he returns seems to trigger what Brienne started--his desire to change

7. Love of Tyrion made him lie and keep the lie secret for years--when revealed, causes two deaths

8. After having Cersei's lack of love confirmed (Lance, Ozzie, Moon Boy) he leaves the city he tried so hard to get to, leaving Cersei open to attack

9. He admires Jeyne Westerling's love, and seems to disapprove of Gatehouse Ami's (would aGoT Jaime have thought about Amarei that way? She's basically mirroring Cersei)

That's just off the top of my head.

[Lharys]

I do think that Jaime's love is, and will continue to be, important in the story.

Will his love be important to the story or to his character? I think part of his love for Cersei, Tyrion, Brienne, etc. makes him a very complex character when merged with his arrogance, incest, pushing a child out of a window, being the Kingslayer, etc. I'm not sure if it ends up playing a big role in the grand scheme of things or if it's just a function of character development.

[JoeyBanana]

This thread matches my impression of Jaime's love life: It's all about Cersei.

But seriously, we would need to look for evidence that he ever desired other women before Feast, in which he had changed considerably (regarding his relationship to Cersei) and we see him getting aroused by Pia, i think. In contrast, he refused her in aSoS and only wanted Cersei.

[larastone]

This thread matches my impression of Jaime's love life: It's all about Cersei.

But seriously, we would need to look for evidence that he ever desired other women before Feast, in which he had changed considerably (regarding his relationship to Cersei) and we see him getting aroused by Pia, i think. In contrast, he refused her in aSoS and only wanted Cersei.

he was aroused by PIa in ASOS too iirc.

[Chebyshov]

This thread matches my impression of Jaime's love life: It's all about Cersei.

She had quite the mental hold on him, and their relationship was incredibly codependent, violent, and corrosive. As we saw in AFFC, it's taking him time to figure out how to operate in the world without her. Seeking another relationship is a whole other hurdle (along with adjusting his concept of what a healthy, good relationship is), and one he may never clear.

[kimim]

Will his love be important to the story or to his character? I think part of his love for Cersei, Tyrion, Brienne, etc. makes him a very complex character when merged with his arrogance, incest, pushing a child out of a window, being the Kingslayer, etc. I'm not sure if it ends up playing a big role in the grand scheme of things or if it's just a function of character development.

He's a character with a distinct and (imo) unrealistic before/after.

Before losing his hand: He's nicer to Tyrion than Cersei is, but I'm not sure if you could call that love, as he also colludes with dad about Tysha. He tosses Bran out the window as easily as swatting a fly, and this is a man with three children. I'm not sure if what he feels for Cersei is love; I detest the term co-dependence, but the thing between them is co-dependence with a vengeance. The only sign of humanity there is his weird reluctance to do away with Brienne in the first part of their escape from the Tullys.

Then he loses his hand, and it's almost night and day. He ends two sieges without bloodshed. He confesses to Tyrion before saving him. He starts seeing through Cersei.

I'm not sure if I can believe it; the change is drastic, and fast.

[larastone]

She had quite the mental hold on him, and their relationship was incredibly codependent, violent, and corrosive. As we saw in AFFC, it's taking him time to figure out how to operate in the world without her. Seeking another relationship is a whole other hurdle (along with adjusting his concept of what a healthy, good relationship is), and one he may never clear.

exactly, and its the same with cersei.even in AFFC when she can be pretty rude/bitchy to him she keeps thinking about how the sex with him had been "golden days and silver nights", as well as him still being the first person coming to her mind when she's in trouble. she keeps thinking about him till the very end of ADWD and refusing to believe he could ever abandon her when its so obvious that he has lol.I do think Cersei is right about one thing though and that's her belief that he's still alive by the end of ADWD.

the incest is just so toxic and destroyed them as people imo, they both would have been way better off they could find loving partners that they weren't related to...from the very beginning. because both have trouble forming relationships with other people because of their relationship with each other imo. jaime is getting there with brienne, but cersei tried and failed with taena

[Mal Malenkirk]

I agree, there's all sorts of fucked up things about Cersei, including her sex life, but the number of partners is not it.

By our standards, that's nothing.

By the standard of a medieval Queen, that's huge!

[The Marquis de Leech]

By our standards, that's nothing.

By the standard of medieval Queen, that's huge!

So we're to endorse medieval judgements, then?

(I would point out that Cersei has sex with exactly two people, Robert and Jaime, while she is Queen. And of those, Robert is forced on her. Cersei may have committed treason in her relationship with Jaime, but she is not a "whore").

[Ingelheim]

So we're to endorse medieval judgements, then?

(I would point out that Cersei has sex with exactly two people, Robert and Jaime, while she is Queen. And of those, Robert is forced on her. Cersei may have committed treason in her relationship with Jaime, but she is not a "whore").

All the Kettleblacks as well, as Queen Regent. And Lancel.

[Julia Martell]

This thread matches my impression of Jaime's love life: It's all about Cersei.

But seriously, we would need to look for evidence that he ever desired other women before Feast, in which he had changed considerably (regarding his relationship to Cersei) and we see him getting aroused by Pia, i think. In contrast, he refused her in aSoS and only wanted Cersei.

Pia was literally sitting on his cock in aSoS. The fact that he was "aroused" proves nothing but the fact that his penis isn't having any blood flow problems.

I don't remember him being tempted by her at all, there or in aFfC. I mean, just because he's nice to her, doesn't mean he's in love with her.

Pia would be a fun subject for some feminist analysis too...

[The Marquis de Leech]

All the Kettleblacks as well, as Queen Regent. And Lancel.

As a widow, she can do what she likes. Her sexuality is only an issue while Robert is alive (i.e. while she is Queen).