Jaime Lannister's Love Life

[JoeyBanana]

She had quite the mental hold on him, and their relationship was incredibly codependent, violent, and corrosive. As we saw in AFFC, it's taking him time to figure out how to operate in the world without her. Seeking another relationship is a whole other hurdle (along with adjusting his concept of what a healthy, good relationship is), and one he may never clear.

I absolutely agree. It's why many (and Jaime) see Cersei's "infidelity" as a huge betrayal. It's a lot more complex than "sexism!" or hyprocrisy, which quite frankly, being mad about her relationship with Jaime while being fine with Robert's "whoring", definitely is or vice versa.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

NO one cares about Cersei's sexual life, tbh. Mostly problem we have with it is that he chose the completely wrong men for it and fucked it up for herself and the realm. If he had slept with Osmund Kettleblack because she thought he was hot, no one wouldn't mind (I wouldn't. I like the KB). Lance, otoh, was a young boy and she was in a position of power, and used him to replace Jaime. That's a big creepy and borderline child abuse, despite Lancel being 16.

[Mal Malenkirk]

So we're to endorse medieval judgements, then?

(I would point out that Cersei has sex with exactly two people, Robert and Jaime, while she is Queen. And of those, Robert is forced on her. Cersei may have committed treason in her relationship with Jaime, but she is not a "whore").

Not a judgement, just an observation. That was a dangerous game.

There is nothing morally wrong about entering a cage full of hungry wild tigers either but...

[JoeyBanana]

Pia was literally sitting on his cock in aSoS. The fact that he was "aroused" proves nothing but the fact that his penis isn't having any blood flow problems.

I don't remember him being tempted by her at all, there or in aFfC. I mean, just because he's nice to her, doesn't mean he's in love with her.

Pia would be a fun subject for some feminist analysis too...

I was referring to the bath scene when he remembers what happened in aSoS. It's not really great evidence, but the only thing i could think of re: Jaime and other women. In aSoS he clearly rejects her and in Feast he doesn't do anything but thinks about the whole thing and how she was willing, then he gets aroused. I could be wrong, but that's how i remember it.

[Lharys]

He's a character with a distinct and (imo) unrealistic before/after.

Before losing his hand: He's nicer to Tyrion than Cersei is, but I'm not sure if you could call that love, as he also colludes with dad about Tysha. He tosses Bran out the window as easily as swatting a fly, and this is a man with three children. I'm not sure if what he feels for Cersei is love; I detest the term co-dependence, but the thing between them is co-dependence with a vengeance. The only sign of humanity there is his weird reluctance to do away with Brienne in the first part of their escape from the Tullys.

Then he loses his hand, and it's almost night and day. He ends two sieges without bloodshed. He confesses to Tyrion before saving him. He starts seeing through Cersei.

I'm not sure if I can believe it; the change is drastic, and fast.

I think this "change" is a product of perception. In the beginning of the series, he is seen from afar and appears as a villain. Then his POV comes into play and he starts to seem more morally responsible. I think he was always the same person, just viewed through different eyes. His lying about Tysha probably stemmed from fearing his father more than not loving Tyrion. He almost killed Ned Stark when Tyrion was captured by Catelyn and did nearly everything he could to save him from being killed following Joffrey's murder.

Throwing Bran out the window was morally wrong but justified in the sense that the Lannister name would be destroyed and the kingdoms would fall apart. Basically, the life of the 2nd born son of Eddard Stark was < all that other stuff.

[larastone]

I absolutely agree. It's why many (and Jaime) see Cersei's "infidelity" as a huge betrayal. It's a lot more complex than "sexism!" or hyprocrisy, which quite frankly, being mad about her relationship with Jaime while being fine with Robert's "whoring", definitely is or vice versa.

With Jaime, its a betrayal because its like if your wife cheated on you after being in a relationship for 30+ years. But lol the fandom likes to incite the cheating as a proof that she Cersei was manipulating Jaime 100% of the time and never ever had any actual loving or romantic feelings about him which is definitely not true since she has these feelings in AFFC/ADWD and its during that time also when she's at her worst and is very bitchy to him. Either way the cheating is a grey area imo, since she only really starting using sex as a weapon after Jaime leaves and GRRM himself has said that Cersei thinks Jaime may be dead, so then her using her sexuality as a tool is quite desperate imo especially considering how big of slap it is for Cersei when Tyrion's made hand of the king and then Tywin tries to use her sell her into a marriage again in ASOS

I already think cheating is a grey area in real life, but its even more grey in regards of Jaime and Cersei's relationship imo

anyways its not Cersei's fault that Jaime was so batshit obessesed with her, thats his own flaw. He's a person who made his own decisions in life and its annoying as hell when people blame Cersei for all his mistakes because he's a grown ass adult who's certainly had the agency to make more choices than Cersei in many situations and was Tywin's #1 favorite child

[kimim]

I think this "change" is a product of perception. In the beginning of the series, he is seen from afar and appears as a villain. Then his POV comes into play and he starts to seem more morally responsible. I think he was always the same person, just viewed through different eyes. His lying about Tysha probably stemmed from fearing his father more than not loving Tyrion. He almost killed Ned Stark when Tyrion was captured by Catelyn and did nearly everything he could to save him from being killed following Joffrey's murder.

Throwing Bran out the window was morally wrong but justified in the sense that the Lannister name would be destroyed and the kingdoms would fall apart. Basically, the life of the 2nd born son of Eddard Stark was < all that other stuff.

True. We hear about him, but he is distant until he leaves with Brienne. After that, yes, we see a more complex person, even before he loses his hand--his interactions with Brienne.

EDIT: It's pretty clear that there IS a change, though, necessitated by his losing his hand. Most obviously he can't do what Loras did to break a siege, so he must think his way through it, rather than act his way through it.

[Dofs]

Where is it even suggested that Cersei had sex with anyone other than Robert and Jaime before AGOT? Cersei's "whore" status is people picking up Tyrion's misogynistic jibe and running with it, even though she's only had sex with 4-5 people in her life.

Tyrion has nothing to do with it and because she had sex with 4-5 people onscreen, doesn't mean she wasn't doing it before.

Points that brought me to this conclusion:

* After Ned Stark told her that he knows her secret about bastards, her first reaction was to get him into her bed

* She said to Sansa that she would give herself to anyone attacking KL so that he would spare her, unless it's Stannis, because this would never work on Stannis

* She told Sansa that a woman's only weapons are tears and vagina

* She also gave Sansa an advice to start using her vagina

* Then she continued that if she does start using it, she will find out that men use their parts very freely

* When thinking about sex with Thaena, she mused that she was better than most men

From all this I'm like 100% sure she was sleeping around before GoT. Not for the sake of having sex but because it's her number 1 method to manipulate men (and some women also). Sex itself doesn't interest her that much as she herself said that she doesn't feel good with anyone but Jaime.

Oh, and I think she did sleep with Osmund Kettleblack as well. During the confession scene she confessed that she slept with all three Kettleblack brothers thinking that it would better to confess too much than too little. So confessing that she only slept with Osney would be too 'little', confessing that she slept with all brothers would be 'too much', meaning that she did sleep with Osmund and told that she slept with Osfryd as well for safety measures.

[kimim]

Tyrion has nothing to do with it and because she had sex with 4-5 people onscreen, doesn't mean she wasn't doing it before.

Points that brought me to this conclusion:

* After Ned Stark told her that he knows her secret about bastards, her first reaction was to get him into her bed

* She said to Sansa that she would give herself to anyone attacking KL so that he would spare her, unless it's Stannis, because this would never work on Stannis

* She told Sansa that a woman's only weapons are tears and vagina

* She also gave Sansa an advice to start using her vagina

* Then she continued that if she does start using it, she will find out that men use their parts very freely

* When thinking about sex with Thaena, she mused that she was better than most men

From all this I'm like 100% sure she was sleeping around before GoT. Not for the sake of having sex but because it's her number 1 method to manipulate men (and some women also). Sex itself doesn't interest her that much as she herself said that she doesn't feel good with anyone but Jaime.

Oh, and I think she did sleep with Osmund Kettleblack as well. During the confession scene she confessed that she slept with all three Kettleblack brothers thinking that it would better to confess too much than too little. So confessing that she only slept with Osney would be too 'little', confessing that she slept with all brothers would be 'too much', meaning that she did sleep with Osmund and told that she slept with Osfryd as well for safety measures.

I don't care if she slept with 100,000 people. I hope all involved had fun.

all I care about are:

1. She chooses lousy advisors: Her fucking "admiral" runs off with her fucking fleet.

2. She refuses to pay the Iron Bank, cuz she has to pay for that fleet! Yay, Cersei.

3. She rearms the faith. Brilliant move.

Why even consider how many people Cersei slept with? It's completely immaterial to what wrecks her rule.

[JoeyBanana]

With Jaime, its a betrayal because its like if your wife cheated on you after being in a relationship for 30+ years. But lol the fandom likes to incite the cheating as a proof that she Cersei was manipulating Jaime 100% of the time and never ever had any actual loving or romantic feelings about him which is definitely not true since she has these feelings in AFFC/ADWD and its during that time also when she's at her worst and is very bitchy to him. Either way the cheating is a grey area imo, since she only really starting using sex as a weapon after Jaime leaves and GRRM himself has said that Cersei thinks Jaime may be dead, so then her using her sexuality as a tool is quite desperate imo especially considering how big of slap it is for Cersei when Tyrion's made hand of the king and then Tywin tries to use her sell her into a marriage again in ASOS

I already think cheating is a grey area in real life, but its even more grey in regards of Jaime and Cersei's relationship imo

anyways its not Cersei's fault that Jaime was so batshit obessesed with her, thats his own flaw. He's a person who made his own decisions in life and its annoying as hell when people blame Cersei for all his mistakes because he's a grown ass adult who's certainly had the agency to make more choices than Cersei in many situations and was Tywin's #1 favorite child

You're right, but i wasn't saying she's to blame for his actions or that she only used him.

My point was that since we get to experience him being faithful to and obsessive over Cersei, many readers sympatize with Jaime as he does see it as a huge betrayal. So do his fans, naturally.

[larastone]

Tyrion has nothing to do with it and because she had sex with 4-5 people onscreen, doesn't mean she wasn't doing it before.

Points that brought me to this conclusion:

* After Ned Stark told her that he knows her secret about bastards, her first reaction was to get him into her bed

* She said to Sansa that she would give herself to anyone attacking KL so that he would spare her, unless it's Stannis, because this would never work on Stannis

* She told Sansa that a woman's only weapons are tears and vagina

* She also gave Sansa an advice to start using her vagina

* Then she continued that if she does start using it, she will find out that men use their parts very freely

* When thinking about sex with Thaena, she mused that she was better than most men

From all this I'm like 100% sure she was sleeping around before GoT. Not for the sake of having sex but because it's her number 1 method to manipulate men (and some women also). Sex itself doesn't interest her that much as she herself said that she doesn't feel good with anyone but Jaime.

Oh, and I think she did sleep with Osmund Kettleblack as well. During the confession scene she confessed that she slept with all three Kettleblack brothers thinking that it would better to confess too much than too little. So confessing that she only slept with Osney would be too 'little', confessing that she slept with all brothers would be 'too much', meaning that she did sleep with Osmund and told that she slept with Osfryd as well for safety measures.

you're trying too hard. most of these examples that you gave is nothing more than her just being aware that her beauty can help achieve her goals. she may have slept with osmund i'll give you that, but if she slept with anyone other than Robert or Jaime before AGOT we would have definitely found out about it, since we get a shitload of Pre-AGOT information from Cersei POV chapters, and if she slept with anyone other than Robert or Jaime before AGOT we would have 100% known about it by now, since GRRM already gives so much Pre-AGOT information in her chapters.

You're right, but i wasn't saying she's to blame for his actions or that she only used him.

My point was that since we get to experience him being faithful to and obsessive over Cersei, many readers sympatize with Jaime as he does see it as a huge betrayal. So do his fans, naturally.

It's fine to feel sympathy for Jaime about it, but its quite disgusting how that usually comes with people being misogynistic as fuck in regards to Cersei and how some people get glee about him calling her a "whore" and wanting inflict violence on her.

[Benandante]

Interesting topic, but Jaime did not arrange the meeting with Tysha.

He and Tyrion simply witnessed Tysha being abused by a group of men and Jaime fought them while Tyrion took care of Tysha and eventually married her.

Tywin ordered Jaime to lie and tell Tyrion that he had paid Tysha,

My mistake! I suppose Jaime could by lying to Tyrion, but extremely unlikely...

Besides Robert (her husband) and Jaime, hasn't Cersei only slept with two other men (Lancel and Kettleblack)?

I think somewhat more (two of the Kettleblacks, Taena, and doesn't she sleep with her handmaids as well?)

Jaime was sent away from the tourney by the King, so yeah he was riding in the opposite way of it, pretty much explains that.

Jaime himself states that he has "known" no other woman than Cersei. Kind of hard to refute since he himself says it and during his POV's he never thinks man, that millers girl was a sweet ......

this is a great point. You are probably correct that this is why the miller calls out that Jame is riding the wrong way. But the text here allows for more than one reading; is an implicit contrast not drawn betwen riding away from the tourney and riding toward the miller's daughter? Your reading is consistent with the overall arc though: Jaime didn't marry Lysa, Jaime didn't sleep with the miller's daughter. Tyrion slept with and married the crofter's daughter

Jaime's own words are that Cersei was his only partner, and there is no reason to think he was lying.

Where is it even suggested that Cersei had sex with anyone other than Robert and Jaime before AGOT? Cersei's "whore" status is people picking up Tyrion's misogynistic jibe and running with it, even though she's only had sex with 4-5 people in her life.

On your first point, I think the OP needs to be amended.

You're correct, I don't think it suggests she sleeps with anyone but those two before AGOT.

I also think her "whore" status comes from her manipulation of Osney Kettleblack - exchanging sex for favors. Also how she continually favors Lord Merryweather on account of his wife.

Cersei has slept with five people: Robert, Jaime, Lancel, "Keep the Crown On" Kettleback, and Taena.

Does she not also sleep with another Kettleblack - the one who rips her dress, the one who lies to the high septon?

There's actually a hint in the next chapter that they may not have had sex, but rather did something else.

And when Taena cannot share her bed, does she not call for her handmaids to fill the role?

Thanks for the feedback everyone

EDIT: originally wrote the Osfryd manipulated the HS, not Osney

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Why even consider how many people Cersei slept with?

because it's somewhat relevant to the topic notionally under discussion (which is not Cersei's competence or likeability, but her twin's lovelife, and so includes his delusions / fulminations about her)

On the whole I agree with Dofs' interpretation

[Benandante]

she didn't sleep with Osmund or Osfryd. in the infamous "she been fucking lancel, osmund, and moonboy" quote..tyrion is only right about the lancel part.

I need to re-examine this - was it not fairly clear she slept with Osmund? I'll respond to this in more detail in a few hours

[Dofs]

I don't care if she slept with 100,000 people. I hope all involved had fun.

all I care about are:

1. She chooses lousy advisors: Her fucking "admiral" runs off with her fucking fleet.

2. She refuses to pay the Iron Bank, cuz she has to pay for that fleet! Yay, Cersei.

3. She rearms the faith. Brilliant move.

Why even consider how many people Cersei slept with? It's completely immaterial to what wrecks her rule.

I was kinda replying to a post to me that she was not doing it on the first page and it's at least relevant to her relationship with Jaime.

True. We hear about him, but he is distant until he leaves with Brienne. After that, yes, we see a more complex person, even before he loses his hand--his interactions with Brienne.

EDIT: It's pretty clear that there IS a change, though, necessitated by his losing his hand. Most obviously he can't do what Loras did to break a siege, so he must think his way through it, rather than act his way through it.

What I think changed about Jaime is that with the loss of his hand, he was forced to have an introspective look on his own life, hence his question 'was I really just a swordhand an nothing else?'.

I agree with people who say that when he became a villain in everyone's life, he just went along with it and started to act as one. But I think he himself did not realize it and only started to see it with the loss of his hand hence his Smiling Knight quote. The forced introspection was what made him change so much.

[DreamSongs]

I agree that the twincest was not a one-sided manipulation. Cersei muses in AFFC of how weary she is of men and includes 'Jaime's jealousy' in that list. She later thinks about how sex had never been good with anyone except Jaime. I think Jaime grew up with the knightly ideal of being sworn and faithful to one woman and was faithful to Cersei...whether she wanted that or not. In her recollections of childhood, its always 'my Jaime' and 'her Jaime'. Jaime spent the last years of his childhood as a squire while Cersei spent hers in KL with Tywin. It was there that she would have become far more worldly and experienced.

Its always been my belief that Cersei's use of her sexuality as a tool of manipulation began in KL while Jaime was still squiring. I'd love to hear how she persuaded Aerys to appoint Jaime to the KG.

[Ingelheim]

Iarastone, she slept with the three Kettleblacks, IIRC.

Osmund and Osfryd for sure.

[larastone]

I need to re-examine this - was it not fairly clear she slept with Osmund? I'll respond to this in more detail in a few hours

It's not clear on page at all, osmund is pretty much a non entity in AFFC, osney is the one that carries out her plans and it's also revealed in AFFC that she had only sex with osney once before

[Dofs]

you're trying too hard. most of these examples that you gave is nothing more than her just being aware that her beauty can help achieve her goals. she may have slept with osmund i'll give you that, but if she slept with anyone other than Robert or Jaime before AGOT we would have definitely found out about it, since we get a shitload of Pre-AGOT information from Cersei POV chapters, and if she slept with anyone other than Robert or Jaime before AGOT we would have 100% known about it by now, since GRRM already gives so much Pre-AGOT information in her chapters.

I really doubt that she said that vagina is a woman's main weapon and than urged Sansa to use it without having an experience using it herself. The fact that we don't know for sure whether she slept around pre-GoT doesn't mean that she didn't. First, from whom we will find out about it? Cersei never thinks about her sleeping with Lancel except for when she warned him about it, doesn't think about sleeping with Kettleblacks. Her actions and thoughts are weird overall towards this topic, she seems to doesn't like to bring it up and even lie to herself:

* When Ned suggested that she tried to seduce Jon Arryn, she, offended, slapped him. But what's there to be offended about when she tried to seduce Ned like a few seconds ago?

* She flat out called Taena a whore because she wasn't a virgin when she married her husband. But if Taena is a whore because of that, who are you then, Cersei?

Second, she still slips in her mind about this sometimes. She told that Taena is better at sex than most men. Who she is comparing Taena with?

Third, we are still at least 2 books to go till the end of ASOIAF, plenty of time to bring it up.

[JoeyBanana]

It's fine to feel sympathy for Jaime about it, but its quite disgusting how that usually comes with people being misogynistic as fuck in regards to Cersei and how some people get glee about him calling her a "whore" and wanting inflict violence on her.

Again, you're not wrong and it's a valid criticism of Cersei "hatred"

Yet it's not a reliable conclusion in general as there are other reasons why she is disliked, many in fact. Cersei being a woman is the least of her sins.