Jaime Lannister's Love Life

[sapphire_lion]

Cersei as a POV character is one of the most spectacular examples of decharacterisation I have ever seen. She became less complex the moment Martin decided to get inside her mind.

Couldn't agree more. There is so much less to her than I would have ever imagined.

What I really meant was she seems willing to have fairly frequent recourse to sex as an indifferent, mirthless tool to power. She doesn't fancy Osney, but she doesn't hesitate either, and that vaguely suggests to me that she's in the habit of employing this tactic now and again...

Cersei exchanges sex for favors with no compunction. Not only that, but it's her go to response. I totally agree that it's a habitual behavior. In all likelihood, she's had sex with many more people than we've seen in the brief periods we've had insight into her personal life. She even hints as much when she tells Jaime that she's lied to him a thousand times.

Also, imho trying to minimize the number of sex partners Cersei's had to something more socially acceptable only validates slut-shaming culture.

Well what other tools does she really have at her disposal? Cersei's like, the prime example for internalized misogyny, which is why I think we see her rather dispassionate views towards sex, and her ability to use it as a means to an end with little guilt (not that she should have any). It's an interesting contrast to Arianne, who also uses sex to manipulate, but we see her coming from a place of sexual empowerment and fulfillment.

I think it's a cop-out to claim that Cersei had no other means than to use sex. Tyrion and Olenna were able to accomplish plenty without trading sex. :P

Seriously though, Cersei had riches and influence. There were other options for her. Options that would have served her better.

Moreover, I can actually admire a woman who uses sex to secure power. But Cersei didn't do that. Giving sex to flunkies was never going to maintain her power base. Had Cersei used sex in a politically savvy manner that had actually benefited her agenda, I would have respected her. Had Cersei been a sexpot who enjoyed frequent sex for her own pleasure, I would have respected her. However, as things are, I cannot respect Cersei's sexcapades because the way she did business was simply stupid.

[sapphire_lion]

This thread matches my impression of Jaime's love life: It's all about Cersei.

Jaime really starts noticing other women in his later chapters in AFFC and his ADWD chapter. GRRM didn't include the Pia boner and Hildy boner for nothing. It's been all about Cersei so far, but Jaime's been showing a growing interest in diversifying his portfolio (if you know what I mean).

he was aroused by PIa in ASOS too iirc.

He even had to remind himself that he had a woman waiting for him. He was tempted by Pia and he is aroused by her again in AFFC.

[DreamSongs]

Back to the OP...before we were derailed by Cersei.

Unfortunately, we can't discuss one twin without discussing the other.

Both twins are emotionally needy and provide for a safe place for the other. Cersei is far more mature and worldly at 15 than Jaime.

[Winter's Knight]

Also, imho trying to minimize the number of sex partners Cersei's had to something more socially acceptable only validates slut-shaming culture.

Don't be disingenous-no one's minimising the number of people she's had sex with,they're merely pointing out the facts. There's textual evidence that she's had sex with five people.

[larastone]

Don't be disingenous-no one's minimising the number of people she's had sex with,they're merely pointing out the facts. There's textual evidence that she's had sex with five people.

lmao don't even try with sapphire_lion tbh..........giving you this advice because i wish someone else had given it to me once i replied back to her in a post awhile go

[The Marquis de Leech]

Don't be disingenous-no one's minimising the number of people she's had sex with,they're merely pointing out the facts. There's textual evidence that she's had sex with five people.

Whereas Tyrion and Robert can sleep around without a stain on their character.

I'm not exactly a Cersei fan, but I hate seeing an author cheerlead us to hate a character. It's one of the reasons I'm sympathetic to Theon.

[larastone]

Whereas Tyrion and Robert can sleep around without a stain on their character.

I'm not exactly a Cersei fan, but I hate seeing an author cheerlead us to hate a character. It's one of the reasons I'm sympathetic to Theon.

lmao I remember I was SHOCKED when Cersei came into GRRM's mind when he was listing some of his favorite POV characters in this entry:

http://grrm.livejournal.com/381923.html

so i do think its a possibility that Cersei has grown on GRRM over the years. and I'm very sympathetic to Theon as well, like Cersei he can pretty monstrous but he's incredibly pitiful imo

[SeanF]

Whereas Tyrion and Robert can sleep around without a stain on their character.

I'm not exactly a Cersei fan, but I hate seeing an author cheerlead us to hate a character. It's one of the reasons I'm sympathetic to Theon.

Surely, we're expected to sympathise with Theon? And, even with Cersei during the WOS?

[Dofs]

Tyrion actually has a fair amount to do with it, since his sympathetic POV is the one labelling her "Queen of Whores" and such-like.

Regarding manipulation, you are overlooking the possibility that she has used sex to manipulate Robert and Jaime, and that when confronted with a massive crisis in her life during AGOT, she decided this principle could be used for other men. Even then, words and actions don't necessarily match. Lancel, after all, was just replacement Jaime, Taena was trying to imitate Robert as she became unhinged, and even with the Kettleblacks she betrays a certain reluctance to actually go through with it.

Nor do we get any textual evidence for pre-AGOT partners: Cersei doesn't think of any, and it weakens the obvious point that Joffrey et al are Jaime's.

I'm pretty sure "Queen of Whores" comes from Jaime :unsure:

Cersei not thinking about them doesn't mean they did not exist. Cersei doesn't think about Lancel and Kettleblacks too really. But true, there is no direct evidence that she slept around pre-GoT but really, there is no direct evidence that she didn't either. And I believe that indirect evidence tells that she actually did do it. But really, I don't want to argue about this topic too much, so we can agree to disagree on this I guess.

[Winter's Knight]

I'm pretty sure "Queen of Whores" comes from Jaime

:unsure:

Cersei not thinking about them doesn't mean they did not exist. Cersei doesn't think about Lancel and Kettleblacks too really. But true, there is no direct evidence that she slept around pre-GoT but really, there is no direct evidence that she didn't either. And I believe that indirect evidence tells that she actually did do it. But really, I don't want to argue about this topic too much, so we can agree to disagree on this I guess.

There's no evidence that she runs a shelter for abandoned animals but there's no evidence that she doesn't either so I guess that's proof that she's an animal rights activist yeah?

Whereas Tyrion and Robert can sleep around without a stain on their character.

I'm not exactly a Cersei fan, but I hate seeing an author cheerlead us to hate a character. It's one of the reasons I'm sympathetic to Theon.

I thought that was just me-i do dislike being told to hate a character.

lmao don't even try with sapphire_lion tbh..........giving you this advice because i wish someone else had given it to me once i replied back to her in a post awhile go

One lives in hope. :P

[larastone]

There's no evidence that she runs a shelter for abandoned animals but there's no evidence that she doesn't either so I guess that's proof that she's an animal rights activist yeah?

I thought that was just me-i do dislike being told to hate a character.

count me in the group too, especially because of how people get pissy when you like a villainous character which is just utter BS, characters shouldn't be judged on whether they would be nice to be friends with irl, characters should be judged on their arcs and how well written they are. and while GRRM fucked up on some aspects regarding Cersei, i still think she's an incredible character

and i'll go as far to say that some of the vanilla good characters in ASOIAF bore me to tears. like I love love Ned and Sansa but no thank you to Sam and Brienne tbh.

[Dofs]

There's no evidence that she runs a shelter for abandoned animals but there's no evidence that she doesn't either so I guess that's proof that she's an animal rights activist yeah?

I already posted my points why I believe what I believe. You can also add to them what sapphire_lion wrote about behaving like it's a habit and I think these points are enough for someone to legitimately think that Cersei did sleep around even if you disagree with it.

[larastone]

I already posted my points why I believe what I believe. You can also add to them what sapphire_lion wrote about behaving like it's a habit and I think these points are enough for someone to legitimately think that Cersei did sleep around even if you disagree with it.

it just makes no sense with her characterization though. before AGOT, Cersei HAS Jaime. Pretty much everytime she uses sex to manipulate its out of pure desperation. She teases Osney FOREVER in AFFC before she finally sleeps with him and even that is him taking her rather violently and she doesn't exactly express enthusiastic consent. Cersei tries to get away with full on sex as much as she can.

In general, Cersei is pretty flirty and puts on a charming facade in court but that doesn't mean she's fucking around with every man she flirts with. Her thinking of sleeping with Ned and Stannis were also in hugely tense situations. you can keep believing what you want to believe but you're wrong not sorry to say.

[Julia Martell]

Whereas Tyrion and Robert can sleep around without a stain on their character.

Isn't that what we're all arguing against?

I mean, the point isn't how many people Cersei has has sex with, that's irrelevant, the point is to argue that she doesn't have a healthy sex life.

And neither do Tyrion or Robert...

New question: is there any aSoIaF character who DOES have a healthy sex life? Like, Ned, maybe?

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Robb & Jeyne, obviously

AGoT Theon - promiscuous and contemptuous but at least consensual

Patrek Mallister, Edmure, other Riverland playboys like Marq Piper, probably maybe

Gatehouse Ami

Possibly Lady Ravella Smallwood?

[SeanF]

Julia, fairly few I think. Much of the sex we see in the series seems to involve elements of manipulation or coercion, or is disturbing in various ways.

[JaegrM]

what a fucking slut omg, she needs to keep it her pants!!! 5 people in 30+ years, clutching my pearls rn

AHHH!!! For the love of all that's decent, we must slut shame her to restore the rightful patriarchal order!

Quick! Strip her naked so people can see that her boobs are slightly saggy, because that's somehow related to her capacity to govern!

No, seriously, the whole thing is absurd, especially when you consider how this is what everyone fixates on. Like, in-text too, this is what turns Jaime off, which...seriously?

I'm sure for some people the fact that Cersei excercises her sexuality is simply a reason to bash her.

My problem with her sexual conquests is her reasons behind them,

Jaime- A true romantic driven act of love, however... unseemly the physical nature of their relationship was.

Robert- Okay she was basically sold to him and it was her duty to bang him

Not too bad so far(excluding the incest and women = property aspects)

Lancel- She just wanted some lovin, the K-Mart brand bit Jaime is kinda horrid, kinda leading Lancel on, basically just using him.

Kettleblacks- She gave it up for compensation, this is flat out whorish

Merryweather- She was "claiming her rights", she did it solely because she could, she didn't enjoy it. She used her and then kicked her out of her bed.

Jaime, Robert and to some extent Lancel I can understand and even appreciate.

Kettleblack was prostitution, and Merryweather was almost sexual assault

Since we have no on screen time of her and Lancel's seduction or whatnot I can only assume this, but in my opinion Cersei led him on to thinking he meant more to her than he did, and at least in our world now, I believe misrepresenting yourself in order to seduce/sleep with someone is legally a type of rape,

Pure speculation on my part, I may even be wrong about that in the real world. In part or in full.

Another example I'm hesitant to use is; didn't she say something to Ned that hinted she'd sleep with him if he just packed up and went back to Winterfell? Or was that only show? Or a complete fabrication of my memory?

I guess in short, what I'm saying is the amount of men she's been with, doesn't matter to me or everybody.

It's more her motives for having slept with them.

[Dofs]

it just makes no sense with her characterization though. before AGOT, Cersei HAS Jaime. Pretty much everytime she uses sex to manipulate its out of pure desperation. She teases Osney FOREVER in AFFC before she finally sleeps with him and even that is him taking her rather violently and she doesn't exactly express enthusiastic consent. Cersei tries to get away with full on sex as much as she can.

In general, Cersei is pretty flirty and puts on a charming facade in court but that doesn't mean she's fucking around with every man she flirts with. Her thinking of sleeping with Ned and Stannis were also in hugely tense situations. you can keep believing what you want to believe but you're wrong not sorry to say.

Well, you and I are seeing Cersei very differently I guess if you are saying that it makes no sense with her characterization. First of all, I had an impression that that was not the first time in Feast when she slept with Osney. Thought you can disagree, I am not gonna argue about that cause I am too lazy to search the book for quotes now. But anyway, I do not believe that a woman in her 30-ties, who, except for her drunken and abusive husband, was loyal to a man of her love, would suggest sex as a first option to her enemy, after he told her that he knows about her big secret. If you think that I am wrong, fine, I don't want to argue a lot about Cersei's sex life, especially when this thread is not about that.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

I think it's fairly clearly implied she'd slept with Osmund now and again, but Keep-the-Crown-On was her first (and last) time with Osney. This is going from memory, however...

[larastone]

I think it's fairly clearly implied she'd slept with Osmund now and again, but Keep-the-Crown-On was her first (and last) time with Osney. This is going from memory, however...

she slept with osney once before AFFC. its questionable whether she slept with osmund