Jaime Lannister's Love Life

[BitsOfBrains]

Jamie says a couple times that he hasn't had any other women besides Cersei. Once under River run and once talking to Hildy. Seems like if he admits to incest he wouldn't then lie about being exclusive.

It does seem like he is starting to think about other women though.

Brienne in the tub, Pia, Hildy, he basically has to shut himself down.

One interesting side note on Jamies love life, he doesn't seem to have a problem letting people think he is getting some action while in the KG.

After Ilyn Payne beats on him and marks him up, he says something like, "There are lusty wenches in house Hayford, these are love bites."

He would rather be seen as morally weak (oath breaking) than physically weak.

[Dofs]

GRRM chose to include these scenes. He chose to write about Jaime getting aroused. He did this for a reason. It wasn't simply a normal reaction that occurred randomly. Behind everything that is written there is an author with an agenda.

The tone is very different in how Jaime reacts to his arousal to other women pre and post estrangement. The fact that he "muses" about Hildy is a total game changer.

Yes, he did include those scenes for a reason an the tone is different. And this tone is what's important, but not his actual arousal, IMO.

The conclusion I think this thread is coming to is that Cersei isn't really that slutty. What's really neat here is that Hildy's openly sexual behavior is arousing to Jaime - in other words, even though he has just seen her screwing Lord Bracken, he's still aroused by her. He's aroused by Pia after he learns she's slept with other men at Harrenhal. He is demonizing Cersei for something that is not only invalid, but also something he seems turned on by.

An alternative reading would be that Jaime is denying his manly urges, just like Cersei is kind of fabricating her own (she has not enjoyed sex with anyone other than Jaime, so perhaps Jaime would enjoy sex with anyone other than Cersei - recall the scene in the Tower of the KG with the White Book.) He is greatly amused by the fantasy, and is perhaps even afraid of acting on them (if he truly has been with only one woman in his life). Maybe it is cowardice, somehow? Afraid to face a second sexual partner?

Yes, he is denying his manly urges and all those scenes show that he was very sexually hungry. So his arousal around whores is understandable. But I definitely disagree that he is aroused by a sexual behavior. He wasn't really aroused by that Frey's whore, he considered Hildy covering herself as more sexy, he liked how Pia shyly was covering her mouth. He straight out said to Hildy that innocence is what he likes the most about women. It's what he likes and that's why he behaves like that himself. I am not sure why you bring up the White Tower.

Also, Jaime never judged Cersei for having sex with Robert. Jaime is not upset because Cersei somehow stopped being sexually pure. He is upset because she lied to him, cheated on him, and used him.

Jaime was still very disturbed by Cersei having sex with Robert. He was very depressed during his trip to Winterfell when saw how Robert and Cersei went to their wheelhouse every evening. Not even Tyrion managed to cheer him up.

Lastly, Jaime has never said anything to Cersei about being a whore. He has had two bitter thoughts on the matter and made some cryptic remarks to two strangers. I don't blame him for it. People are allowed to have angry thoughts. It's part of being human.

Well, no, Jaime is not innocent in thinking that Cersei is a whore. He thought so plenty of times. From what I remember, 'Queen of Whores' is his line, remembering how Tyrion said that whores don't kiss their clients, he mused whether Cersei kissed Osmund Kettleblack and he also said that Tyrion had hundreds of whores while he only had one. Jaime call Cersei a whore, and a lot.

Even though he is very kind to Pia, he does think that sleeping around is wrong and unhonorable as evidenced by his mocking of Ned having a bastard and Cat sleeping with Littlefinger ( even though he was provoced by Cat back then ).

[Le Cygne]

I was stepping through all the scenes for another thread, and each time he's aroused, there's a Brienne connection.

[larastone]

Yes, he did include those scenes for a reason an the tone is different. And this tone is what's important, but not his actual arousal, IMO.

Yes, he is denying his manly urges and all those scenes show that he was very sexually hungry. So his arousal around whores is understandable. But I definitely disagree that he is aroused by a sexual behavior. He wasn't really aroused by that Frey's whore, he considered Hildy covering herself as more sexy, he liked how Pia shyly was covering her mouth. He straight out said to Hildy that innocence is what he likes the most about women. It's what he likes and that's why he behaves like that himself. I am not sure why you bring up the White Tower.

Jaime was still very disturbed by Cersei having sex with Robert. He was very depressed during his trip to Winterfell when saw how Robert and Cersei went to their wheelhouse every evening. Not even Tyrion managed to cheer him up.

Well, no, Jaime is not innocent in thinking that Cersei is a whore. He thought so plenty of times. From what I remember, 'Queen of Whores' is his line, remembering how Tyrion said that whores don't kiss their clients, he mused whether Cersei kissed Osmund Kettleblack and he also said that Tyrion had hundreds of whores while he only had one. Jaime call Cersei a whore, and a lot.

Even though he is very kind to Pia, he does think that sleeping around is wrong and unhonorable as evidenced by his mocking of Ned having a bastard and Cat sleeping with Littlefinger ( even though he was provoced by Cat back then ).

Also Pia hasn't been such a huge part of Jaime's life like Cersei has. And yep he calls Cersei "whore" plenty of fucking times, lol @ the white-knighting. The thing about Jaime is that before losing his hand, the main ways that he identified himself is by Cersei's lover and a warrior. When he loses his hand....he still tries to hold onto the "warrior" aspect......

A flush crept up Lancel's cheeks. "I pray for you, cousin. And for Her Grace the queen. May the Crone lead her to her wisdom and the Warrior defend her."

"Why would Cersei need the Warrior? She has me."

but the Cersei cheating part pretty much forces him to stop thinking about himself as the warrior and that fucks him up. so in that way, jaime's negative feelings about Cersei are very complex. He's not just angry at her for the cheating, but also because in his mind she has stripped him off his identity.

“I thought that I was the Warrior and Cersei was the Maid, but all the time she was the Stranger, hiding her true face from my gaze. "

I mean the definition of a madonna/whore complex is:

this psychological complex is said to develop in men who see women as either saintly Madonnas or debased prostitutes.

and I think this fits Jaime to a T, especially with how he saw Cersei as his maiden before, and "maiden" doesn't necessarily mean "virgin" in this context, but more as him seeing Cersei as this beautiful woman he needs to protect.

Basically, while Jaime may not be as sexist or misogynistic like other men in this story....his thoughts about sex and women are still hugely fucked up. And while his love for Cersei may have been slightly more ~sacrificial~ than her love for him, his love for her also hugely came from him building her as this person in his mind that she is not.

Cersei also has somewhat similar feelings about Jaime in AFFC.............

How could I ever have loved that wretched creature? she wondered after he had gone. He was your twin, your shadow, your other half, another voice whispered. Once, perhaps, she thought. No longer. He has become a stranger to me."

But the major difference here is that while Cersei loved Jaime, she never defined herself as "Jaime's lover". She always defined and identified herself as "Queen" and "Tywin's Lannister's daughter" primarily. So while the breakup with Jaime also further unhinges her, her anger at him doesn't go the depths that his anger for her goes to.

It's a very complex relationship in many ways. And I've always thought that Jaime's arc is more about identity than redemption. At this point, he is starting to let go of Cersei......but considering the high probability of him being the valonqar, it doesn't seem likely that he'll ever truly be able to let go of her.

[sapphire_lion]

Well, no, Jaime is not innocent in thinking that Cersei is a whore. He thought so plenty of times. From what I remember, 'Queen of Whores' is his line, remembering how Tyrion said that whores don't kiss their clients, he mused whether Cersei kissed Osmund Kettleblack and he also said that Tyrion had hundreds of whores while he only had one. Jaime call Cersei a whore, and a lot.

I did a word search for the word whore in Jaime's AFFC and ADWD chapters and found three instances when Jaime implies that Cersei is a whore.

She gave a shake of her ample hips. "I'm the queen o' whores."

No, Jaime thought, my sweet sister holds that title too.

"Tyrion once told me that most whores will not kiss you. They'll fuck you blind, he said, but you'll never feel their lips on yours. Do you think my sister kisses Kettleblack?"

My little brother has known a hundred whores, I'm sure, but I've only ever bedded one."

Is three plenty? Also, people are allowed to have angry thoughts. Thought crimes are not true crimes. The average person who has been cheated on has much worse thoughts than this.

Even though he is very kind to Pia, he does think that sleeping around is wrong and unhonorable as evidenced by his mocking of Ned having a bastard and Cat sleeping with Littlefinger ( even though he was provoced by Cat back then ).

He thinks cheating is wrong. There is a difference.

I don't recall the Cat thing. Care to post it? Do you think he might have been trying to piss her off?

Because... Jaime knows that Pia has had sex with hundreds. He is very kind to her. He stands up for her. He takes her in. He never judges her. He also hooks Pia and Peck up. And he gives them his bed to fvck in. So he is definitely not against sleeping around.

"There's no harm in him bedding her, I suppose, so long as she's willing." -Jaime

The lad nodded. "My lord, I . . . where should I take her? There's never a place to . . . to . . ."

". . . to be alone?" Jaime grinned. "We'll be at supper several hours. The straw looks lumpy, but it should serve."

Peck's eyes grew wide. "His lordship's bed?"

"You'll feel a lord yourself when you're done, if Pia knows her business." And someone ought to make some use of that miserable straw mattress.

-Jaime and Peck

Also, Jaime pretends that the marks he has on his body from training with Ilyn Payne were love bites given to him by lusty wenches.

Also, I don't recall Jaime ever judging Tyrion for sleeping around either.

[sapphire_lion]

Jaime was still very disturbed by Cersei having sex with Robert. He was very depressed during his trip to Winterfell when saw how Robert and Cersei went to their wheelhouse every evening. Not even Tyrion managed to cheer him up.

Sure. The woman he was in love with was forced to have sex with someone else. Of course it disturbed and hurt him. He hated it. But he never judged or blamed Cersei for it. It wasn't her fault and he knew it. The other sex Cersei had was a choice she made. That's where the betrayal occurred in Jaime's eyes.

[Aryya Stark]

One way Jaime differs from his siblings would be that he has as-yet no association with Wildfire. Tyrion and Cersei use Wildfire in great quantities, something we see very few other characters do.

Further, we have the strong distinction between Tywin and Tytos. Tywin saw what his father was and made himself different. Perhaps the Lannister theme is self-determination? Jaime sees (what he thinks) Cersei has become, and makes himself different.

The wildfire link is very interesting and adds another perspective.

I can't help but think that all 3 siblings are messed up sexually. Jaime's sexual experience at his age borders on celibacy. Tyrion could be a sexual addict and Cersie sees sex as a weapon.

I think perhaps each one of them has internalized how their father approached sex differently and that's why all three react differently to it. Their father really messed them up.

[larastone]

The wildfire link is very interesting and adds another perspective.

I can't help but think that all 3 siblings are messed up sexually. Jaime's sexual experience at his age borders on celibacy. Tyrion could be a sexual addict and Cersie sees sex as a weapon.

I think perhaps each one of them has internalized how their father approached sex differently and that's why all three react differently to it. Their father really messed them up.

i agree with this

[Dofs]

Also Pia hasn't been such a huge part of Jaime's life like Cersei has. And yep he calls Cersei "whore" plenty of fucking times, lol @ the white-knighting. The thing about Jaime is that before losing his hand, the main ways that he identified himself is by Cersei's lover and a warrior. When he loses his hand....he still tries to hold onto the "warrior" aspect......

but the Cersei cheating part pretty much forces him to stop thinking about himself as the warrior and that fucks him up. so in that way, jaime's negative feelings about Cersei are very complex. He's not just angry at her for the cheating, but also because in his mind she has stripped him off his identity.

I don't think it is that way, his 'warrior' identity started breaking straight after he lost his hand ('Was that all I was, a sword hand? Gods be good, is it true?'), then before he broke up with Cersei, he tells this :

"I was made for a battlefield, not a council chamber. And now it may be that I am unfit even for that."

Also, if Cersei's cheating stripped him from his warrior identity, I would think it would have affected his training of his left hand, yet, he continued training after Lancel's confession without any second thoughts.

I mean the definition of a madonna/whore complex is:

and I think this fits Jaime to a T, especially with how he saw Cersei as his maiden before, and "maiden" doesn't necessarily mean "virgin" in this context, but more as him seeing Cersei as this beautiful woman he needs to protect.

I am not sure this complex fits Jaime that much seeing how he was treating Pia, but his thoughts about Cersei are quite similar to this.

Basically, while Jaime may not be as sexist or misogynistic like other men in this story....his thoughts about sex and women are still hugely fucked up. And while his love for Cersei may have been slightly more ~sacrificial~ than her love for him, his love for her also hugely came from him building her as this person in his mind that she is not.

I don't see sexism and misogyny here really as his thoughts about sex and women seem to be quite the same as his thoughts about sex and men. But about seeing Cersei as she is not is spot on. Truth to be told, Cersei too saw Jaime that existed only in her mind.

But the major difference here is that while Cersei loved Jaime, she never defined herself as "Jaime's lover". She always defined and identified herself as "Queen" and "Tywin's Lannister's daughter" primarily. So while the breakup with Jaime also further unhinges her, her anger at him doesn't go the depths that his anger for her goes to.

Well, Cersei didn't really break up with Jaime, she still considers him as hers. And when she will find out that Jaime abandoned her, I am feeling her reaction will not be nice.

[David Selig]

Obviously not a lie. Far too graphic, Jaime is giving a glimpse of something that actually occurred.

Wait, so because someone has a really graphic sex fantasy, it must mean it actually happened? Seriously?

[Mikkel]

Wait, so because someone has a really graphic sex fantasy, it must mean it actually happened? Seriously?

I sure as hell hope not (or if so, 15-year-old me owes some former classmates a few apologies, methinks).

[larastone]

I don't think it is that way, his 'warrior' identity started breaking straight after he lost his hand ('Was that all I was, a sword hand? Gods be good, is it true?'), then before he broke up with Cersei, he tells this :

"I was made for a battlefield, not a council chamber. And now it may be that I am unfit even for that."

Also, if Cersei's cheating stripped him from his warrior identity, I would think it would have affected his training of his left hand, yet, he continued training after Lancel's confession without any second thoughts.

I am not sure this complex fits Jaime that much seeing how he was treating Pia, but his thoughts about Cersei are quite similar to this.

I don't see sexism and misogyny here really as his thoughts about sex and women seem to be quite the same as his thoughts about sex and men. But about seeing Cersei as she is not is spot on. Truth to be told, Cersei too saw Jaime that existed only in her mind.

Well, Cersei didn't really break up with Jaime, she still considers him as hers. And when she will find out that Jaime abandoned her, I am feeling her reaction will not be nice.

Jaime's madonna/whore complex is only with Cersei because she's the one who was and still is a huge part of his identity for his entire life. And Jaime is going through a huge identity crisis in ASOS/AFFC because he's lost his hand, he's find out Cersei's cheated on him and broken up with her and even his relationship with Tyrion gets damaged.

It's said before that:

Jaime only feels truly alive when fighting or making love.

and he loses BOTH of those things by the end of ASOS. And I think that really fucks up his mind. His AFFC arc is basically about him learning to live without his sword hand and Cersei's love. I just think there's a direct correlation when regarding his sword hand and Cersei. Like of course, Jaime realizes that he's not invincible anymore shortly after on the road with Brienne in ASOS, but as you notice its his love for Cersei that gives him strength to keep moving on. She was one of the primary reasons why he wanted to live:

Live, he told himself harshly, live for Cersei, live for Tyrion. Live for vengeance.

And then in ASOS, he ends up losing Cersei. And I think it messes him up because he can't identify himself as her lover anymore, and he had done that his entire life. I feel like these pieces in the text support this:

“I prefer you garbed in crimson and gold.”

I prefer you dappled in sunlight, with water beading on your naked skin. He wanted to kiss her, carry her to her bedchamber, throw her on the bed… . she’s been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy…

I just really do think its a lot more complex with Jaime than just how a normal person being sad and frustrated that his wife cheated on him. That's why I take his calling her a "whore" and having these revenge fantasies of her as more seriously than other people do. Imo there's more to it than just normal anger, I'm honestly really glad that Jaime is away from Cersei rn lol.

[Dofs]

I did a word search for the word whore in Jaime's AFFC and ADWD chapters and found three instances when Jaime implies that Cersei is a whore.

Is three plenty? Also, people are allowed to have angry thoughts. Thought crimes are not true crimes. The average person who has been cheated on has much worse thoughts than this.

So I have listed every single instance when Jaime called Cersei a whore? I have a good memory :lol:

But anyway, after Lancel's confession, he calls her a whore almost every chapter, quite a lot. But I don't hold it against him. She was cheating on him while he was loyal to her his entire life, so he can call her a whore how many times he wants, he has a right.

He thinks cheating is wrong. There is a difference.

I don't recall the Cat thing. Care to post it? Do you think he might have been trying to piss her off?

Because... Jaime knows that Pia has had sex with hundreds. He is very kind to her. He stands up for her. He takes her in. He never judges her. He also hooks Pia and Peck up. And he gives them his bed to fvck in. So he is definitely not against sleeping around.

Also, Jaime pretends that the marks he has on his body from training with Ilyn Payne were love bites given to him by lusty wenches.

Also, I don't recall Jaime ever judging Tyrion for sleeping around either.

His quote about Cat:

"I find nothing about you amusing, Kingslayer."

"That name again. I don't think I'll fuck you after all, Littlefinger had you first, didn't he? I never eat off another man's trencher. Besides, you're not half so lovely as my sister." His smile cut. "I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?"

He said that to obviously annoy Cat but it was more like "I'm a kingslayer, I have shit for honor? What about you then?", so what he said was what he actually genuinely thought.

But yeah, he doesn't really judge people because of sleeping around, Tyrion is still his best friend, Pia is still a poor tortured woman for whom most of those hundred men were probably rapists, but he still prefers if people don't do it, hence his statement to Hildy, that innocence is what he prefers in women. And he is not speaking about criminal innocence. I also can't really explain his line to Cat by something other than by what he thought Cat had done was wrong. If he was perfectly fine with it, he would have never said that, even pissed off.

So I guess he doesn't like it but is fine enough with it to hook up his squire with Pia. :dunno: ( thought it was more like he gave them a place and opportunity then really hooked up as that squire already had his eyes set for Pia)

Jaime talking about love bites is nothing new, he was comparing things with sex all the time, which sure is amusing considering that he is one of the least sexually active adult characters in the books. :lol:

Sure. The woman he was in love with was forced to have sex with someone else. Of course it disturbed and hurt him. He hated it. But he never judged or blamed Cersei for it. It wasn't her fault and he knew it. The other sex Cersei had was a choice she made. That's where the betrayal occurred in Jaime's eyes.

Well, yeah, he is not an idiot to blame it on Cersei.

I can't help but think that all 3 siblings are messed up sexually. Jaime's sexual experience at his age borders on celibacy. Tyrion could be a sexual addict and Cersie sees sex as a weapon.

Jaime was loyal to his girlfriend, how is that wrong? Should he have cheated to not be considered as messed up? :mellow: And how is Tyrion a sexual addict? He was loyal to Shae when he was with her, not something a sex addict would do.

[Le Cygne]

The scenes after he meets Brienne make a lot more sense if you factor her in. It could just be he doesn't want Pia or Hildy or Cersei. It could be his heart is otherwise engaged, whether he's come to terms with that or not. GRRM said he's writing a Beauty and the Beast story, and that's a love story.

Martin “said what he wanted to do was to take the traditional format of Beauty and the Beast and change the roles — and also the genders,” she says. “That really excited me.”

http://tvline.com/2014/03/25/game-of-thrones-season-4-spoilers-gwendoline-christie-brienne-jamie/

[Aryya Stark]

Jaime was loyal to his girlfriend, how is that wrong? Should he have cheated to not be considered as messed up? :mellow: And how is Tyrion a sexual addict? He was loyal to Shae when he was with her, not something a sex addict would do.

I have a problem with referring to Cersie as Jaime's girlfriend. Jaime was loyal to his sister/lover, I wouldn't call her a girlfriend, their relationship was neither normal nor healthy. In addition, they had to keep it a secret for all of their adult lives which again is extremely unhealthy and I imagine quite stressful.

Besides this relationship started at such an early age, IIRC their mother caught them messing around at ages 8/9?

He never had an opportunity to experience love/sex with other women out in the open, to get to know a total stranger and create a bond out of nothing and try to build a foundation of trust and loyalty. Instead, he had a relationship with someone he had known all his life and there was nothing to build since they were siblings.

Next he goes and becomes a member of the Kings Guard which is even worse because now he can't even get married to experiment at least with a wife, whereas Cersie even though she hated it at least had an outlet with her husband.

Having different relationships, experimenting, etc is part of growing up and maturing, until you reach a point in life when you realize you want to settle down with the right person. However, being bogged down in a relationship which started at the age of 8 or 9 and never trying anything beyond its boundaries is not just unhealthy its pathetic. To even have expectations from such a relationship built on nothing is ludicrous. They weren't even adults when they started this for me to give it any credence. So using the word girlfriend in this situation is making a mockery of relationships entered into by consenting adults.

Today I was pondering this very question. Should have "cheated"? And my answer is yes he should have, because I don't consider what they had a relationship. Building a relationship is hard work it's not just sex. He should have given himself and his sister a chance. I even wish he had married Lysa Arryn anyone would do instead of his sister.

I really feel sorry for both of them, but I don't blame them. Like I said with that father it's no wonder they all turned out the way they did. His interaction with Brienne is normal, they are getting to know one another and the attraction between them is gradual. It is building up step by step the more they get to know each other. They are beginning to like each other as people and are finding common ground in addition to respecting each other.

As for Tyrion, perhaps I misphrased, I meant he is too much into sex with prostitutes/mistresses etc. Again, he does not go after something real, but I can understand because he was traumatized by his father with the whole Tysha thing. Btw, I recall he wanted to have sex with Sansa while he was still with Shae, so I am not sure whether he was really being loyal to Shae or just waiting for something better to come along...again messed up.

Sorry for the really long post

[larastone]

I have a problem with referring to Cersie as Jaime's girlfriend. Jaime was loyal to his sister/lover, I wouldn't call her a girlfriend, their relationship was neither normal nor healthy. In addition, they had to keep it a secret for all of their adult lives which again is extremely unhealthy and I imagine quite stressful.

Besides this relationship started at such an early age, IIRC their mother caught them messing around at ages 8/9?

He never had an opportunity to experience love/sex with other women out in the open, to get to know a total stranger and create a bond out of nothing and try to build a foundation of trust and loyalty. Instead, he had a relationship with someone he had known all his life and there was nothing to build since they were siblings.

Next he goes and becomes a member of the Kings Guard which is even worse because now he can't even get married to experiment at least with a wife, whereas Cersie even though she hated it at least had an outlet with her husband.

Having different relationships, experimenting, etc is part of growing up and maturing, until you reach a point in life when you realize you want to settle down with the right person. However, being bogged down in a relationship which started at the age of 8 or 9 and never trying anything beyond its boundaries is not just unhealthy its pathetic. To even have expectations from such a relationship built on nothing is ludicrous. They weren't even adults when they started this for me to give it any credence. So using the word girlfriend in this situation is making a mockery of relationships entered into by consenting adults.

Today I was pondering this very question. Should have "cheated"? And my answer is yes he should have, because I don't consider what they had a relationship. Building a relationship is hard work it's not just sex. He should have given himself and his sister a chance. I even wish he had married Lysa Arryn anyone would do instead of his sister.

I really feel sorry for both of them, but I don't blame them. Like I said with that father it's no wonder they all turned out the way they did. His interaction with Brienne is normal, they are getting to know one another and the attraction between them is gradual. It is building up step by step the more they get to know each other. They are beginning to like each other as people and are finding common ground in addition to respecting each other.

As for Tyrion, perhaps I misphrased, I meant he is too much into sex with prostitutes/mistresses etc. Again, he does not go after something real, but I can understand because he was traumatized by his father with the whole Tysha thing. Btw, I recall he wanted to have sex with Sansa while he was still with Shae, so I am not sure whether he was really being loyal to Shae or just waiting for something better to come along...again messed up.

Sorry for the really long post

very well written post and i completely agree, this is also why i see cersei's cheating a grey area because i don't consider what they had as a "relationship" either. the only problem of course is that cersei doesn't find happiness or pleasure in the men she sleeps with besides jaime. she manages to find some comfort in taena, but that was also an abusive relationship since taena was obviously manipulating cersei and cersei only continued to have sex with taena because she believed that would make taena stay around and not because she actually enjoyed the sex

[Aryya Stark]

very well written post and i completely agree, this is also why i see cersei's cheating a grey area because i don't consider what they had as a "relationship" either. the only problem of course is that cersei doesn't find happiness or pleasure in the men she sleeps with besides jaime. she manages to find some comfort in taena, but that was also an abusive relationship since taena was obviously manipulating cersei and cersei only continued to have sex with taena because she believed that would make taena stay around and not because she actually enjoyed the sex

Totally agree. I think the reason why Cersie can't find happiness is because she doesn't know how to. Their relationship "skills" for a lack of a better word never developed to be able to find something real.

She keeps going back to Jaime because he has become her safety net I think. Btw, I think her becoming queen when she was already trapped in this unhealthy situation just made things worse for her because now all the guys around her want something from her, just like Jaime joining the KG was bad for him. Even Taena wants something, I think the only way she can find something real is if she abdicates which I don't think will happen because of the storyline. It's really sad though.

[larastone]

Totally agree. I think the reason why Cersie can't find happiness is because she doesn't know how to. Their relationship "skills" for a lack of a better word never developed to be able to find something real.

She keeps going back to Jaime because he has become her safety net I think. Btw, I think her becoming queen when she was already trapped in this unhealthy situation just made things worse for her because now all the guys around her want something from her, just like Jaime joining the KG was bad for him. Even Taena wants something, I think the only way she can find something real is if she abdicates which I don't think will happen because of the storyline. It's really sad though.

yeah the scene in which Osney asks her to "keep the crown on" is really quite disgusting. She really has been exploited by all the men around her with the exception of Jaime. Even Lancel completely got away with sleeping with her because the High Sparrow thinks she corrupted him with her evil vagina smh. that fact that lancel walks with her during the WOS just really shows her tragedy I think.

I really do think that Cersei might have been a saner and happier person and channel her emotions in a healthier way if she was maybe born a Martell or something. She may have never been a good person but she really needed to have some agency in which she could wield a sword or something I think. It's true that she keeps coming back to Jaime because he's essentially her safe place, he was the only one that she could look to for comfort during her abusive marriage with Robert. And I'm pretty sure that deep down she knows that Jaime had abandoned her but she just can't bring herself to admit it :((((. I do believe that she's right about Jaime still being alive by the end of ADWD though I think.

[sapphire_lion]

So I have listed every single instance when Jaime called Cersei a whore? I have a good memory :lol:

But anyway, after Lancel's confession, he calls her a whore almost every chapter, quite a lot. But I don't hold it against him. She was cheating on him while he was loyal to her his entire life, so he can call her a whore how many times he wants, he has a right.

Jaime is quite restrained in his anger of Cersei. Most people who have been cheated on are far more vicious in their thoughts and words.

His quote about Cat:

"I find nothing about you amusing, Kingslayer."

"That name again. I don't think I'll fuck you after all, Littlefinger had you first, didn't he? I never eat off another man's trencher. Besides, you're not half so lovely as my sister." His smile cut. "I've never lain with any woman but Cersei. In my own way, I have been truer than your Ned ever was. Poor old dead Ned. So who has shit for honor now, I ask you? What was the name of that bastard he fathered?"

He said that to obviously annoy Cat but it was more like "I'm a kingslayer, I have shit for honor? What about you then?", so what he said was what he actually genuinely thought.

The fact remains that Jaime was intentionally trying to piss Cat off. We've been in Jaime's head. He doesn't judge people for having sex.

Also, at the time he was knowingly having sex with a woman who was married and occasionally had sex with her husband. So much for not eating off another man's trencher.

But yeah, he doesn't really judge people because of sleeping around, Tyrion is still his best friend, Pia is still a poor tortured woman for whom most of those hundred men were probably rapists, but he still prefers if people don't do it, hence his statement to Hildy, that innocence is what he prefers in women. And he is not speaking about criminal innocence.

I don't think he was talking about sexual innocence either. He was talking about someone who is free from malice and corruption.

I also can't really explain his line to Cat by something other than by what he thought Cat had done was wrong. If he was perfectly fine with it, he would have never said that, even pissed off.

Again, he was trying to provoke Cat into anger. We've been inside Jaime's head. He has no problem with sleeping around as evident by his treatment of Pia and Peck.

So I guess he doesn't like it but is fine enough with it to hook up his squire with Pia. :dunno: ( thought it was more like he gave them a place and opportunity then really hooked up as that squire already had his eyes set for Pia)

Jaime was the one who suggested that Peck hook up with Pia. Peck was very shy about the whole matter. Jaime brought it up and encouraged him.

Jaime even let's them fvck in his tent while he's there. He makes no judgement.

Pia was fussing at a brazier, trying to light the coals. Peck went to help her. Of late, Jaime oft went to sleep to the sound of them fucking in a corner of the tent.

Well, yeah, he is not an idiot to blame it on Cersei.

Exactly. But some posters are unfairly implying that Jaime wanted Cersei to be sexually pure. What Jaime wanted was a lover who was as faithful to him as possible.

[sapphire_lion]

Cersei that gives him strength to keep moving on. She was one of the primary reasons why he wanted to live:

At the time. Then he gets to Cersei. She gives him no strength. In fact, he finds Cersei to be a person he no longer enjoys being around.

He was sick of it, sick of lords and lies, sick of his father, his sister, sick of the whole bloody business. -ASOS

Somewhere the gods were laughing. Cersei had never taken kindly to being balked, he knew that. Softer words might have swayed her, yet of late the very sight of her made him angry. -AFFC

Part of him would be glad to put King's Landing behind him. He had no taste for the company of the lickspittles and fools who surrounded Cersei. -AFFC

Throughout ASOS/AFFC, Jaime is having an identity crisis. He used to be the greatest swordsman in Westeros. He used to be his sister's lover. He used to be Tywin Lannister's son. He used to be his brother's friend and protector. Everything that made him who he was in Jaime's own mind was taken from him.

"I've lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war."

The circumstances of Jaime's life put him in a position where he had to rebuild, change, and move on. And in many ways he did.

He finds contentment away from Cersei. He makes connections with the men who are serving under him. He starts carving out a new life for himself.

If truth be told, he liked this life. He felt more comfortable amongst soldiers in the field than he ever had at court. -AFFC

Yes, he is bitter and angry at Cersei for her betrayals. But thoughts of Cersei lessen over time. In his chapter in ADWD Jaime only thinks of Cersei thrice (and once it's to compare her nipples to Hildy's). This is a huge change. I think it was GRRM's intention to have Jaime move on from his sister and find his own identity away from his family.

An east wind blew through his tangled hair, as soft and fragrant as Cersei's fingers. –ASOS

The sun was warm on his back and the wind riffled through his hair like a woman's fingers. -AFFC

By ADWD, Jaime is not only unwilling to die for Cersei, but he is no longer living for her either.