If Jon is heir to Winterfell..

[Universal Sword Donor]

There are three branches of flints. It's possible they aren't all on the same page. But I left them out because I don't know much about them.

Eta and river lands means half of it when it is half your kingdom.

Well the mountain clans *love* the Ned and his family, so those Flints are in. Robin Flint is Lynessa Flint's son, and those two are the respective head of house for FF and WW. Those two are heavily aligned with the Starks. Robin dying at the Red Wedding might affect that somewhat, but only in a good way. The FF house will not look to the Boltons or their allies with any type of admiration or respect.

Riverlands are on the wrong side of MC. Any one of the North's southerly great houses can pretty much keep the RL forces out by themselves, especially wit hthe Reed's help.

Even Robb realizes how much of a pipe dream it is to get Jon to be his heir. He offers a trade of 100 men for Jon. Why would a king offer a trade if he can just snatch him up anytime?

Robb was on the wrong side of MC with a separated army and a dicey plan to retake MC. He took a wound storming the POS crag. If nothing else, he wanted his forces to know who to look to once they broke through. The North's biggest concern at that point was centralized leadership. You saw what happened to the forces when Rodrik was left in charge.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Refer to my comments above on the matter. I listed each of their banner man and reasons they would do it.

They are not very good reasons as much as i see.Anyway GRRM confirmed Jon was named as his heir but the Houses that you mentioned are a very big IF.

[Poppa Chase]

As i pointed out,The Houses of The North would not follow her after the episode with Jaime,Catelyn even points out they dislike her.Again The North would declare for someone with Stark blood even if he was from a cadet-branch,Catelyn is a Stark by marriage not by blood,she is a Southern to their eyes.The Lords from the Vale would be decent but Jon would be the most logical choice for Robb.

The karstarks resent her for that of course. I don't know where it is said that they all hate her now. Even Robb didn't hate her. He understood what she did and why she did it. And had she not, karstark would have killed Jaime and she would have lost her poor little girls.... Well oops on that part.

[Poppa Chase]

Well the mountain clans *love* the Ned and his family, so those Flints are in. Robin Flint is Lynessa Flint's son, and those two are the respective head of house for FF and WW. Those two are heavily aligned with the Starks. Robin dying at the Red Wedding might affect that somewhat, but only in a good way. The FF house will not look to the Boltons or their allies with any type of admiration or respect.

Riverlands are on the wrong side of MC. Any one of the North's southerly great houses can pretty much keep the RL forces out by themselves, especially wit hthe Reed's help.

Robb was on the wrong side of MC with a separated army and a dicey plan to retake MC. He took a wound storming the POS crag. If nothing else, he wanted his forces to know who to look to once they broke through. The North's biggest concern at that point was centralized leadership. You saw what happened to the forces when Rodrik was left in charge.

Yep, also betrayed by the boltons.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

The karstarks resent her for that of course. I don't know where it is said that they all hate her now. Even Robb didn't hate her. He understood what she did and why she did it. And had she not, karstark would have killed Jaime and she would have lost her poor little girls.... Well oops on that part.

Resentment=dislike+Hate.Harrion would definetely not think of her in a high way same goes for Alys,i tend to think they were angry at what happened to their brothers and in their eyes Catelyn freed the guy that killed them.Good Idea,i will go to talk to Jaime The Kingslayer,The Honourless,The Sister//////,The Lannister loyal scumbug,my most imporant hostage and convince him to free my girls even though he is a self entitled brat,we all know the results afterwards.

[Universal Sword Donor]

As i pointed out,The Houses of The North would not follow her after the episode with Jaime,Catelyn even points out they dislike her.Again The North would declare for someone with Stark blood even if he was from a cadet-branch,Catelyn is a Stark by marriage not by blood,she is a Southern to their eyes.The Lords from the Vale would be decent but Jon would be the most logical choice for Robb.

Wow I somehow was totally forgetting the release of Jaime.

The *best* reaction she got from anyone was Greatjon's "women don't know any better," well at least until Maege said she'd do the same out of earshot of anyone else.

[Ice Queen]

He wanted her to know they both had no other option. People keep forgetting that this is the kingdom of the north and rivers. If there are no Starks then it makes sense to use a tully.

No it doesn't. If anything, he would have to look to the Vale for his heir just as Catelyn suggested.

There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Not a Tully. And you can bet your bottom dollar there's a good reason for that.

As a last resort, the only other house he could have looked to in the North would be the Karstarks.

Jon is the only option politically speaking.

[Julia H.]

I really don't get your point.

Robb also spent pages discussing about how to retake the North. That definitely turned out to be irrelevant. Two pages are nothing in comparison especially as the readers know that Robb still has living heirs.

Robb's campaign is a story-line in itself, we may call it, for example, the story of the "fallen hero", the Young Wolf, who went South. It has enormous consequences in the story. The talk about retaking the North is a more or less inevitable part of the campaign - Robb's military plans influence what actual steps he takes - and it also helps to show what kind of military leader Robb is, so it is not irrelevant (I don't think a good writer includes irrelevant passages in his story), and we know its place in the plot.

Robb's will is different. Its signing is basically Robb's last action / command before going to the Red Wedding (where he dies), which in itself gives it some emphasis. It is also somewhat mysterious - we don't actually know its precise contents though we do have some clues, and it appears to be controversial, too. (See this thread.) Yet, the will - made in the last minute before the maker's death - has had no impact on the story so far. It seems to have disappeared. The signers are actually alive but out of sight. There is too much story potential in the will (the way it is set up etc.) to let it disappear forever from the story before making some sort of impact on the plot. From a narrative viewpoint, it would be a waste and would make no sense. It is much more probable that the will (or at least someone's knowledge of its contents) will surface at some point.

I could even say that there are clues that could point in that direction: Lady Maege signed it, and as far as we know, she is alive. A book later, Stannis receives the letter saying "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." It is signed by one of Lady Maege's daughter. I would be surprised if it had actually been composed by a ten-year-old girl, though the name Lyanna is a sweet touch. But the letter does come from House Mormont. Just who exactly are they thinking of? Now, we don't know if the Mormonts have any idea of Bran and Rickon being alive, but we know that Lady Maege knows about Robb's will. The letter also happens to be read out to Jon.

Another point is that the Lannisters' "Lord of Winterfell" is none other but Roose Bolton's legitimized bastard. It would make a fascinating parallel with Jon if Jon were also a legitimized bastard - the Roose-Snow and the Stark-Snow clashing at Winterfell and over the North as Winter comes - opposing values and personalities but similar situations.

Well, anyway, the will could have an impact in different ways. It would be interesting if it did nothing else but give Jon another difficult moral dilemma - or the chance to refuse a crown as he has refused lands and marriage before.

The idea that Robb's heir is Catelyn is also interesting with regard to Lady Stoneheart's revenge mission in the Riverlands, though it would be more convincing if she haunted the North instead. But this debate about which houses would support her ... surely it is theoretical? I mean ... she died and she is not really Lady Stark any more. She could not be a queen, she could not marry or give birth to children now. She is UnCat.

[Poppa Chase]

Robb's campaign is a story-line in itself, we may call it, for example, the story of the "fallen hero", the Young Wolf, who went South. It has enormous consequences in the story. The talk about retaking the North is a more or less inevitable part of the campaign - Robb's military plans influence what actual steps he takes - and it also helps to show what kind of military leader Robb is, so it is not irrelevant (I don't think a good writer includes irrelevant passages in his story), and we know its place in the plot.

Robb's will is different. Its signing is basically Robb's last action / command before going to the Red Wedding (where he dies), which in itself gives it some emphasis. It is also somewhat mysterious - we don't actually know its precise contents though we do have some clues, and it appears to be controversial, too. (See this thread.) Yet, the will - made in the last minute before the maker's death - has had no impact on the story so far. It seems to have disappeared. The signers are actually alive but out of sight. There is too much story potential in the will (the way it is set up etc.) to let it disappear forever from the story before making some sort of impact on the plot. From a narrative viewpoint, it would be a waste and would make no sense. It is much more probable that the will (or at least someone's knowledge of its contents) will surface at some point.

I could even say that there are clues that could point in that direction: Lady Maege signed it, and as far as we know, she is alive. A book later, Stannis receives the letter saying "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." It is signed by one of Lady Maege's daughter. I would be surprised if it had actually been composed by a ten-year-old girl, though the name Lyanna is a sweet touch. But the letter does come from House Mormont. Just who exactly are they thinking of? Now, we don't know if the Mormonts have any idea of Bran and Rickon being alive, but we know that Lady Maege knows about Robb's will. The letter also happens to be read out to Jon.

Another point is that the Lannisters' "Lord of Winterfell" is none other but Roose Bolton's legitimized bastard. It would make a fascinating parallel with Jon if Jon were also a legitimized bastard - the Roose-Snow and the Stark-Snow clashing at Winterfell and over the North as Winter comes - opposing values and personalities but similar situations.

Well, anyway, the will could have an impact in different ways. It would be interesting if it did nothing else but give Jon another difficult moral dilemma - or the chance to refuse a crown as he has refused lands and marriage before.

The idea that Robb's heir is Catelyn is also interesting with regard to Lady Stoneheart's revenge mission in the Riverlands, though it would be more convincing if she haunted the North instead. But this debate about which houses would support her ... surely it is theoretical? I mean ... she died and she is not really Lady Stark any more. She could not be a queen, she could not marry or give birth to children now. She is UnCat.

Yep. My argument was the contents and decision determined in the will. Things have most definitely changed. Had Catelyn went to Seagard it would be a different story.

That being said, what wins kingdoms? Armies. And who has the crown and a small army backing her? Uncat.

Also. She is moving north. I believe there will be a Jon UnCat meet up eventually. Wouldn't it be something if Jon had to put her down? How would she even treat him? It leaves a lot to wonder. Plus their characters really seem like a reunion is a long time coming.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Maybe Robb did decide to make Cat Queen of the North. The trap he laid for her is she must marry Jon to become that queen. Jon and Cat. Stark blood and Stark name.

[Poppa Chase]

Maybe Robb did decide to make Cat Queen of the North. The trap he laid for her is she must marry Jon to become that queen. Jon and Cat. Stark blood and Stark name.

This would in a way make Robb worse than Joffrey and Ramsay.

[juanml82]

Maybe Robb did decide to make Cat Queen of the North. The trap he laid for her is she must marry Jon to become that queen. Jon and Cat. Stark blood and Stark name.

Legally, it might be simpler: the doesn't legitimize Jon nor remove him from the NW. Instead, he legitimizes any son born of Catelyn Stark and Jon Snow. It would still conflict with his vows of not fathering children, though.

But the problem is that a baby can't be expected to be a rallying figure in times of war. Besides, Catelyn was supposed to go to Seaguard, not the Neck.

[FreeParking]

I like to link this whenever the issue of Robb's will comes up.

http://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/75469820185/just-a-quick-note-on-your-fantastic-outline-of-the

[Ser Eric]

Robb's campaign is a story-line in itself, we may call it, for example, the story of the "fallen hero", the Young Wolf, who went South. It has enormous consequences in the story. The talk about retaking the North is a more or less inevitable part of the campaign - Robb's military plans influence what actual steps he takes - and it also helps to show what kind of military leader Robb is, so it is not irrelevant (I don't think a good writer includes irrelevant passages in his story), and we know its place in the plot.

Robb's will is different. Its signing is basically Robb's last action / command before going to the Red Wedding (where he dies), which in itself gives it some emphasis. It is also somewhat mysterious - we don't actually know its precise contents though we do have some clues, and it appears to be controversial, too. (See this thread.) Yet, the will - made in the last minute before the maker's death - has had no impact on the story so far. It seems to have disappeared. The signers are actually alive but out of sight. There is too much story potential in the will (the way it is set up etc.) to let it disappear forever from the story before making some sort of impact on the plot. From a narrative viewpoint, it would be a waste and would make no sense. It is much more probable that the will (or at least someone's knowledge of its contents) will surface at some point.

Just so we are on the same page, I've not called Robb's story line irrelevant.

I don't think Robb's will is any different. It's just another part of Robb's character as a military leader and ensuring succession is a big part of it. Robb specifically refers to the chaos is the wake of Balon's death as something he does not wish to emulate in the event of his own death. So, while the will is relevant to Robb's character progression and it's becomes irrelevant to future plots for a variety of different reasons. In the very same chapter, Robb makes elaborate plans to take Moat Calin. Yes, it shows how capable he as a commander but ultimately pointless because it never comes into play. The fact that it was his last act does not change anything. Look how important Robert's will turned out and that was actually his last action unlike Robb.

The author spends barely 2 pages on the discussion of the will and it's never mentioned again. If the will was in anyway important he would have at least enured that it wasn't present at the twins at the time of the RW. But it most likely was and thus destroyed or lost.

From a narrative and story point of view, it becomes even more pointless. One, Jon has already refused one offer to end his vows. He also tried to run away in GoT. Bringing the same issue of desertation/leaving the NW for a 3rd time makes no sense. Two, Robb has 4 living heirs excluding Jon. There's really no need to bring up a 5th one.

I could even say that there are clues that could point in that direction: Lady Maege signed it, and as far as we know, she is alive. A book later, Stannis receives the letter saying "Bear Island knows no king but the King in the North, whose name is STARK." It is signed by one of Lady Maege's daughter. I would be surprised if it had actually been composed by a ten-year-old girl, though the name Lyanna is a sweet touch. But the letter does come from House Mormont. Just who exactly are they thinking of? Now, we don't know if the Mormonts have any idea of Bran and Rickon being alive, but we know that Lady Maege knows about Robb's will. The letter also happens to be read out to Jon.

Another point is that the Lannisters' "Lord of Winterfell" is none other but Roose Bolton's legitimized bastard. It would make a fascinating parallel with Jon if Jon were also a legitimized bastard - the Roose-Snow and the Stark-Snow clashing at Winterfell and over the North as Winter comes - opposing values and personalities but similar situations.

Well, anyway, the will could have an impact in different ways. It would be interesting if it did nothing else but give Jon another difficult moral dilemma - or the chance to refuse a crown as he has refused lands and marriage before.

On the contrary, it sounds like exactly the thing a child woud say. Wynafryd Manderley says professes loyalty to the Starks and she certainly has no clue about any will. It's just Northerers being loyal to Starks.

Besides, how would Lyanna know anything about the will? Maege is supposedly at Greywater Watch and there are no ravens there. And if she somehow got hold of ravens why did Alysanne not get the memo? She, unlike Lyanna, is perfectly happy to declare the Mormonts for Stannis.

The "Will he won't he" moral dilemna for Jon has been done before.

The idea that Robb named Catelyn as his heir is flat out bizarre.

1. Robb tells Catelyn his intentions plainly. He has no real reason to lie and none at all not to tell Catelyn that he named her his heir.

2. If we were to assume that for some baffling reason Robb did lie to Catelyn, it still doesn't explain why Catelyn does not know she is the heir. It was signed right in front of her. She had to know if not by seeing it then by some Lord congratulating or telling her she's been named heir.

Yet, Catelyn never thinks about being named heir. There could only be two reasons for this. 1)Robb stuck to his guns and named Jon as heir and/or 2)The Northern Lords never saw who the heir was. They just signed the document and left it at that.

[joluoto2]

Even if it's not in writing they were both present in it's signing and so it stands to reason they are both aware of it's contents and can spread Robb's wishes to the remaining northern lords.

Yes, they probably know who Robb appointed as heir. But they don't have his will. Thus there is no proof in writing unless Lady Stoneheart has it, or the Freys stashed it away somewhere. Another possibility is that the Freys gave it to Roose, and he has it.

[Poppa Chase]

Double post

[Poppa Chase]

Just so we are on the same page, I've not called Robb's story line irrelevant.

I don't think Robb's will is any different. It's just another part of Robb's character as a military leader and ensuring succession is a big part of it. Robb specifically refers to the chaos is the wake of Balon's death as something he does not wish to emulate in the event of his own death. So, while the will is relevant to Robb's character progression and it's becomes irrelevant to future plots for a variety of different reasons. In the very same chapter, Robb makes elaborate plans to take Moat Calin. Yes, it shows how capable he as a commander but ultimately pointless because it never comes into play. The fact that it was his last act does not change anything. Look how important Robert's will turned out and that was actually his last action unlike Robb.

The author spends barely 2 pages on the discussion of the will and it's never mentioned again. If the will was in anyway important he would have at least enured that it wasn't present at the twins at the time of the RW. But it most likely was and thus destroyed or lost.

From a narrative and story point of view, it becomes even more pointless. One, Jon has already refused one offer to end his vows. He also tried to run away in GoT. Bringing the same issue of desertation/leaving the NW for a 3rd time makes no sense. Two, Robb has 4 living heirs excluding Jon. There's really no need to bring up a 5th one.

On the contrary, it sounds like exactly the thing a child woud say. Wynafryd Manderley says professes loyalty to the Starks and she certainly has no clue about any will. It's just Northerers being loyal to Starks.

Besides, how would Lyanna know anything about the will? Maege is supposedly at Greywater Watch and there are no ravens there. And if she somehow got hold of ravens why did Alysanne not get the memo? She, unlike Lyanna, is perfectly happy to declare the Mormonts for Stannis.

The "Will he won't he" moral dilemna for Jon has been done before.

The idea that Robb named Catelyn as his heir is flat out bizarre.

1. Robb tells Catelyn his intentions plainly. He has no real reason to lie and none at all not to tell Catelyn that he named her his heir.

2. If we were to assume that for some baffling reason Robb did lie to Catelyn, it still doesn't explain why Catelyn does not know she is the heir. It was signed right in front of her. She had to know if not by seeing it then by some Lord congratulating or telling her she's been named heir.

Yet, Catelyn never thinks about being named heir. There could only be two reasons for this. 1)Robb stuck to his guns and named Jon as heir and/or 2)The Northern Lords never saw who the heir was. They just signed the document and left it at that.

I'm under the assumption that he told her. And that she just didn't really have time to dwell on that. She doesn't want to imagine her last and first child dying. She believes it to be a formality she didn't want. Hence the trap he set for her.

Immediately afterward a she bear tells Catelyn the importance of strong women leading. And Robb is having her sent off to seagard to seperate her from himself. But she begged to come, and neither of them believed he would do anything to them so long as they had guest right.

Lady Stone heart has his crown. She's already decimated a large amount of soldiers. I believe she's heading north, first into riverrun where she destroys a lannister Frey wedding. Then passing through the twins, she comes into the castle and kills the Freys. Then on to moat cailin. Through the barrow lands and right into winterfell. She'll be wearing his crown and calling herself queen in the north. She will destroy the boltons, the Freys and the last hopes for the lannisters.

This is the War of Seven Queens.

Daenerys Targeryen

Cersei Lannister

Margaery Tyrell

Sansa Stark

Catelyn Stark

Arianne Martell

Selyse Baratheon

[JonBranRickon]

Very clever!

[Poppa Chase]

Very clever!

Which part?

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

I'm under the assumption that he told her. And that she just didn't really have time to dwell on that. She doesn't want to imagine her last and first child dying. She believes it to be a formality she didn't want. Hence the trap he set for her.

Immediately afterward a she bear tells Catelyn the importance of strong women leading. And Robb is having her sent off to seagard to seperate her from himself. But she begged to come, and neither of them believed he would do anything to them so long as they had guest right.

Lady Stone heart has his crown. She's already decimated a large amount of soldiers. I believe she's heading north, first into riverrun where she destroys a lannister Frey wedding. Then passing through the twins, she comes into the castle and kills the Freys. Then on to moat cailin. Through the barrow lands and right into winterfell. She'll be wearing his crown and calling herself queen in the north. She will destroy the boltons, the Freys and the last hopes for the lannisters.

This is the War of Seven Queens.

Daenerys Targeryen

Cersei Lannister

Margaery Tyrell

Sansa Stark

Catelyn Stark

Arianne Martell

Selyse Baratheon

I am preety sure LS work is to deal with the Freys not the North.The Boltons are clearly for Stannis and Jon at least on my prospective.Also someone analysed the trap better than i.If what i write is not enough,i have this for you.http://asoiaf.wester...-awoiaf-app-v2/.You brought Selyse in this conversation???I'm gonna throw up.

Stateofdissipation stated the trap much better than I could:

stateofdissipation, on 07 Sept 2014 - 01:21 AM, said:

Robb had Cat present when he called his lords to fix their seals... she could neither oppose him openly nor deny the finality of the decision... a trap.

Cat said she would not support Robb in his folly of naming Jon as heir... and he made her do exactly that.

(emphasis mine)

In addition, Catelyn, in front of Robb's lords, could not openly go against Robb's decision to send her to Seaguard, where she would be a prisoner, ensured that she would cause no more trouble. Taken away from the last child she (believed she) still had, while she had believed that she would stay with Robb.Rhaenys and stateofdissipation explained this better than my self.The app says it's Jon,GRRM says it's Jon so i am going with GRRM word.Also keep in mind that Catelyn sooner or later will learn R+L=J,would't she help her son's best friend,his brother and what remains of Ned?