If Jon is heir to Winterfell..

[Poppa Chase]

I would love for Jon to be the ultimate badass.

Northmen rally to his name, come to the wall to acquire him. Tell him that his brother left him as heir to the north and rivers. And also that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryen and Lyanna Stark. And he is the prince that was promised.

His is the song of ice and fire.

And then he's like, "Nah I'm good. I like it up here."

They are like "... Dude you can be king..."

"Nah man, im with the watch for this night and all the nights to come."

And they're like, "Well alright man. I guess we'll catch you later.."

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

I would love for Jon to be the ultimate badass.

Northmen rally to his name, come to the wall to acquire him. Tell him that his brother left him as heir to the north and rivers. And also that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryen and Lyanna Stark. And he is the prince that was promised.

His is the song of ice and fire.

And then he's like, "Nah I'm good. I like it up here."

They are like "... Dude you can be king..."

"Nah man, im with the watch for this night and all the nights to come."

And they're like, "Well alright man. I guess we'll catch you later.."

I think Jon will deal with the Boltons,Rickon will show up and he will rule as his regent.I don't really think that Jon em would be very happy at how his brothers treated him when he wakes up or is resseructed or whatever i except him to go berserk mode.Correct me if i am wrong but wasn't Catelyn found close to the GW,close to Howland Reed?

[Julia H.]

Just so we are on the same page, I've not called Robb's story line irrelevant.

I don't think Robb's will is any different. It's just another part of Robb's character as a military leader and ensuring succession is a big part of it. Robb specifically refers to the chaos is the wake of Balon's death as something he does not wish to emulate in the event of his own death. So, while the will is relevant to Robb's character progression and it's becomes irrelevant to future plots for a variety of different reasons. In the very same chapter, Robb makes elaborate plans to take Moat Calin. Yes, it shows how capable he as a commander but ultimately pointless because it never comes into play. The fact that it was his last act does not change anything. Look how important Robert's will turned out and that was actually his last action unlike Robb.

The author spends barely 2 pages on the discussion of the will and it's never mentioned again. If the will was in anyway important he would have at least enured that it wasn't present at the twins at the time of the RW. But it most likely was and thus destroyed or lost.

From a narrative and story point of view, it becomes even more pointless. One, Jon has already refused one offer to end his vows. He also tried to run away in GoT. Bringing the same issue of desertation/leaving the NW for a 3rd time makes no sense. Two, Robb has 4 living heirs excluding Jon. There's really no need to bring up a 5th one.

On the contrary, it sounds like exactly the thing a child woud say. Wynafryd Manderley says professes loyalty to the Starks and she certainly has no clue about any will. It's just Northerers being loyal to Starks.

Besides, how would Lyanna know anything about the will? Maege is supposedly at Greywater Watch and there are no ravens there. And if she somehow got hold of ravens why did Alysanne not get the memo? She, unlike Lyanna, is perfectly happy to declare the Mormonts for Stannis.

The "Will he won't he" moral dilemna for Jon has been done before.

Well, let me put it this way then: Robb's plans to take Moat Cailin are necessarily over with Robb's death. A person's will, however, becomes important with the person's death. Robb's military plans have obviously played their parts in the story. Robb's will has not played a part yet, it has not realized its enormous story potential (which is far more than just character description). I feel it would be a waste to write it into the story and then just let it disappear without another mention. But we'll see.

Robert's will is different. Naming Joffrey his ultimate heir is not a surprise as he dies ignorant of who Joffrey's real father is. It shows, however, that in his last moments he acknowledges Ned as his most / only trusted friend by naming him Lord Regent and Protector of the Realm and also because it is Ned he wants to talk to before dying. That is an important moment in the story of the Ned - Robert friendship. It means reconciliation between two once close but recently rather estranged friends at the end of their lives. That is the significance of Robert's will, and it is is heard by the most important person it relates to. The reader can also understand that after Robert's death Ned, who knows that Robert's will (regarding Joffrey) is based on false premises, is trying to act in the spirit of Robert's will by trying to get Robert's blood (true heir) on the throne – after all, Robert wanted him to help his true heir on the throne.

Robb's will, besides being much more mysterious than Robert's, relates (in all probability) to one of the central characters of the novel, who has no idea about it yet. It says nothing new of the relationship between Robb and Jon, but it directly refers to an important issue of Jon's life: his bastard status, his ambivalent relationship with Winterfell.

That the will is never mentioned in the story again is something we can't say at this point. We still have two books to go. The silence about the will (i.e. the author does not say where it is, but he does not say it has been destroyed either) may mean that it will turn up again unexpectedly as a surprise. After all, the strategy has been used in literature before.

As for Jon's story, the issue of desertion is a permanent motif in it. It is not twice that it has been brought up, it is played out again and again. Twice in AGoT, Jon turns his horse in the direction of the South, and on the second occasion he fully intends to desert. In ACoK, he has to play the turncloak and deserter as a ruse, but the consequences of it are very real. In ASoS, he refuses Winterfell and the lordship on the one hand because he refuses to burn the heart tree, he refuses to turn against his father's gods even in order to save his father's castle, and, on the other hand because he remembers Robb telling him he could never be Lord of Winterfell. In Dance, he shouts “I am the Lord of Winterfell” in his dream. At this point of the story, while the actual title belongs to a Bolton, Jon assumes responsibilities in the North that belong to a King or a Lord Paramount. I suspect that his responsibilites will be even greater as the rest of the story unfolds, and he may simply “outgrow” the NW (we don't know what state the NW will be reduced to in the aftermath of the Ides of Marsh). At the moment it is very unlikely that Jon is done with the question of desertion forever. The issue is likely to remain part of his story arc with or without Robb's will.

Yes, Robb has other heirs, but none of those heirs is actually on the spot. Not many people even know of their whereabouts (Jon certainly does not). Of course, one or the other of them may turn up at the most unexpected moment. (Actually, it is rather probable that they will.) Besides, war is coming and none of these other heirs is a military / political leader. Jon is. All of these circumstances make the situation more complicated, and when it comes to choices, the various characters will make their decisions on the basis of whatever information is available to them. (The contents of Robb's will itself may be one of several secret pieces of information available to certain characters but not to others.) Jon himself may have to alter his decisions as the situation changes.

But it is not only the political issues that the will may influence. In addition, there is the identity issue Jon has to resolve. In Dance, Jon Snow openly identifies himself as a son of Eddard Stark, and he knows himself to be the last living son who can still uphold the spiritual Stark heritage. The mere knowledge of being legitimized and made an heir by Robb would have huge personal significance for Jon, even without the possibility of any political ramifications. The discovery of his Targaryen parentage could once again change everything for him.

I don't recall Alysanne Mormont declaring for Stannis. Stannis is angry because no Northern houses declare for him except the Karstarks (which is a ruse). Later, northmen (and women) fight side by side with him as allies, since they fight for a common goal. That happens after Stannis heeds Jon's advice, is accompanied by Jon's men (who lead him to the clans) and starts fighting for Northern, even Stark goals (like saving the Ned's little girl). Of course, you will join forces with an army that helps you achieve your goals – it makes you natural allies. Alliance is no “declaration” though. When the northmen start trusting Stannis and flocking to him, it is very probable that they have already realized that Stannis and Jon are allies.

I'm not saying that Robb's will will necessarily make Jon King-in-the-North. Actually, I don't think the will alone could do it, nor do I think Jon is after any crowns. But I think the North needs him, and I'm not convinced (though I do not rule it out either) that commanding a handful of NW brothers will always be the best and most effective way for him to serve the realm. I'm quite convinced, however, that we will still hear of Robb's will one way or another.

I would love for Jon to be the ultimate badass.

Northmen rally to his name, come to the wall to acquire him. Tell him that his brother left him as heir to the north and rivers. And also that he is the son of Rhaegar Targeryen and Lyanna Stark. And he is the prince that was promised.

His is the song of ice and fire.

And then he's like, "Nah I'm good. I like it up here."

They are like "... Dude you can be king..."

"Nah man, im with the watch for this night and all the nights to come."

And they're like, "Well alright man. I guess we'll catch you later.."

LOL!

I think Jon will deal with the Boltons,Rickon will show up and he will rule as his regent.I don't really think that Jon em would be very happy at how his brothers treated him when he wakes up or is resseructed or whatever i except him to go berserk mode.Correct me if i am wrong but wasn't Catelyn found close to the GW,close to Howland Reed?

I imagine it in a similar way. I can see Jon becoming (de facto) king then stepping down when Rickon returns. It has been made quite clear that he would never usurp his brothers' birthright, and even if he knows of Robb's will, he will also know that Robb believed his younger brothers dead. Or perhaps Jon may not become king but an outlaw and deserter who deals with the Boltons all the same (with his wildling army, for example). I can also imagine that it is the returning Rickon who finds out about Robb's will before Jon, and he will face a moral dilemma. (Of course, he'd have to grow significantly older for that.) Anyway, dealing with the Boltons is not Jon's only job and I'm not sure I can see him as regent for long, at least not in peace-time.

[Northern_Star]

Well, let me put it this way then

*snipp*

Your post was a very good read. Thank you for that!

[The Bastard of Walton]

The question of Robbs Will is one I cant wait to be answered. I personally believe it names Jon & somehow lifts his vows of the Nightswatch (I'm unsure if he can do this).

As to where it is & why Howland, Mormont & Glover have not appeared to declare it Rhaegal Targaryern has probably answered that. Stannis turning up at the Wall & declaring himself King made it near enough impossible for them to declare Robbs Will. Also after the Red Wedding, openly trying to cross the North with such a precious item to Stark Loyalists would be very dangerous. Going by ship was also a no go because of the Iron Islanders.

The route taken by whoever (If at all) is delivering the Will to Jon would have been a long & slow one. Chances are someone will arrive in WOW only to find out Jon is Supposedly dead (Personal belief is he is alive & in a coma). By this time word would reach them of Rickon being still alive & that in its self makes Robbs Will void in a political sense.

I think Jon is named as Heir, but that it will hardly affect the story. Rickon being alive, plus if Stannis is alive makes me thing that way.

[Lord Defiance]

Bran by law.

Sansa according to Lannisters (well until the PW at least) and Littlefinger.

Arya according to the Boltons.

Rickon according to Wyman Manderley.

Actually, Rob legitimized Jon before he died. So Jon, to the North and assuming they have the will, is the heir.

[juanml82]

Actually, Rob legitimized Jon before he died. So Jon, to the North and assuming they have the will, is the heir.

Ah, but it's more complicated than that. Do legitimized bastards come before or after their younger legitimate siblings?

The answer is probably "which of them has the largest army?"

[Poppa Chase]

Ah, but it's more complicated than that. Do legitimized bastards come before or after their younger legitimate siblings?

The answer is probably "which of them has the largest army?"

Jon would probably step down and allow his younger brother to have his birthright. And to not be used in a political scheme, he will have to join the nights watch.......

[Universal Sword Donor]

Ah, but it's more complicated than that. Do legitimized bastards come before or after their younger legitimate siblings?

The answer is probably "which of them has the largest army?"

Theoretically they come *after* the trueborn siblings, but a king can name his heir as he pleases. That said, Robb thought everyone else was dead and now he's dead. If Jon were smart and doesn't end up with the IT (god I hope he doesn't), he's either going to be Lord of Winterfell or a Lord in his own right with land in the gift(s). Let's him still help out the NW too.

[juanml82]

Theoretically they come *after* the trueborn siblings, but a king can name his heir as he pleases. That said, Robb thought everyone else was dead and now he's dead. If Jon were smart and doesn't end up with the IT (god I hope he doesn't), he's either going to be Lord of Winterfell or a Lord in his own right with land in the gift(s). Let's him still help out the NW too.

Can a king name his heir as he pleases? We know Randyll Tarly couldn't disinherit Sam, but he's no king. Did any of the Targaryen kings, as opposed to a Grand Council, named a heir bypassing someone else's claim without triggering a war?

[Eat My Steel]

Well, let's be honest. The only people who are going to disagree or tear apart your post are those who don't like Jon or have an ax to grind with him. You'll hear, he is "in the Nights Watch and can't hold titles or lands" or he is "just a bastard." But we have already seen there could be away out of Night's Watch, by royal decree. Robb was a King. It is heavily implied that he named Jon heir and gave him a Stark name. That's pretty clear. The question is, will people follow Robb's wishes. Certainly anyone south of the Riverlands won't. But should the North rally behind Jon and raise a army and can win; it doesn't matter what KL, Storms End, Casterly Rock, Dorne, Oldtown, Highgarden....or anyone else thinks. It all comes down power. Right now there is no King in the North.....but there could be in the end.

Jeyne Westerling is in the new book prologue. Does she have the will?

[Universal Sword Donor]

Can a king name his heir as he pleases? We know Randyll Tarly couldn't disinherit Sam, but he's no king. Did any of the Targaryen kings, as opposed to a Grand Council, named a heir bypassing someone else's claim without triggering a war?

Tarly is a lord, and he's not even an LP or 'ruling' family. You have to factor in the Great Councils as part of that. Jaehaerys I chose his heir contrary to the succession laws, though his heir died before he did. He put it to the Great Council 10 years later.

But yes, it's messy and ends in war. We saw Tywin's intent to ensure that Tyrion did not inherit the Rock. Like GRRM said:

The short answer is that the laws of inheritance in the Seven Kingdoms are modelled on those in real medieval history... which is to say, they were vague, uncodified, subject to varying interpretations, and often contradictory.

Being able to back up a claim with lots of swords is going to help you out more often than it's going to hurt you.

[Buried Treasure]

Can a king name his heir as he pleases? We know Randyll Tarly couldn't disinherit Sam, but he's no king. Did any of the Targaryen kings, as opposed to a Grand Council, named a heir bypassing someone else's claim without triggering a war?

'A king can name his heir as he pleases' is a massive oversimplification which I think some posters mistakenly believe and other posters use as a shorthand to mean a king has more discretion than an average lord because he is the highest authority that other lords would petition if they wanted a change of heir.

An heir can be disbarred but the next in line then becomes the heir, not anybody the king chooses. So a simpleminded son might be passed over for the second son or if a traitorous brother was disbarred his two sons might be and a cousin would move up 3 places in the line of succession. Disbarring for cause seems important, not just on a whim - but here a king has a lot more freedom because he could get away with skipping someone on a weak justification whereas a lord would be checked by having to have his overlord agree the justification was sound.

[Eat My Steel]

Any of Ned's children would be heirs to Winterfell before Jon Snow since R+L=J.... Lyanna's child would not have rights over Ned's kids, however the whole of Westeros Jon may have claim....

[Torrhen Blackwood]

Jeyne Westerling is in the new book prologue. Does she have the will?

Whoah..Is this true?

[Northern_Star]

Jeyne Westerling is in the new book prologue. Does she have the will?

Source?

Edit: "Nevermind"

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/117687-jeyne-westerling-giving-birth-to-robb-starks-heir/

[unitron]

Dance of the Dragons indeed.

Rickon comes before her anyway. But let's say that plays out. She's a Lannister by marriage. Even if by some miracle that marriage is annulled and she marries Harry the Heir, so what? They're all backed by Petyr Baelish, for heaven's sakes.

The whole realm thinks she's a murderer, and we know how Stannis deals with murderers.

Considering that Stannis considers Joffrey to be in rebellion against the true king (himself), wouldn't he be more likely to give her a medal?

[Hodor the Articulate]

Considering that Stannis considers Joffrey to be in rebellion against the true king (himself), wouldn't he be more likely to give her a medal?

Not before chopping her fingers off! "A good deed does not wash out the bad" and all that.

[Eat My Steel]

Not before chopping her fingers off! "A good deed does not wash out the bad" and all that.

He wouldn't chop her fingers off because she wasn't a smuggler. I think if Stannis believed she did murder Joffrey he would probably have a stiffer punishment of some sort - I can't imagine what, but I don't think he would kill her because: A. She is a woman; B. This ultimately helped his cause. However, Tyrion was accused and sentenced for the crime and there is no evidence Sansa had anything to do with it, except for the circumstantial evidence of her escaping while the asshole choked. No one familiar with Joffrey would fault her for wanting to escape...

[unitron]

Anybody other than Stannis who claims to be King is, in the eyes of Stannis, in rebellion, and if he could get his hands on them, he would execute them, so I'd think that makes them fair game for anyone loyal to Stannis.

Therefore, not murder.